Goran Dragic plans to test free agency; blames struggles on 3 PG system

[slinslin]

You don't mean that, do you? When Bledsoe missed half the season last year, Dragic rose to the level of 3rd Team All NBA. And the Suns far exceeded original expectations.

And they went from playoff seed to missing the playoffs.

Terrific.

 

[Errntknght]

Thanks for posting that breakdown of our guard play, Phrazbit. It suggests that my idea of playing our 3 PG's singly and pouring lots of SGs onto the floor is the way to maximize our performance. Naturally, since our PGs would only average about 16 minutes on the floor per game they'd have plenty of energy to defend stoutly - one could even hope for some disruptive actions - certainly from Bled. After seeing how well Tony Snell did playing the 2 for Indiana, suggests that giving Marcus and TJ minutes at the 2 might be a worthwhile tactic - SGs are just not accustomed to dealing with such large strong players.

The driving idea behind the plan is maximize the value of our depth - just to be sure, yes, I'm suggesting making use of guys like Zoran and Goodwin and more PT for TJ. I think Goran would be energized if he and his brother got to play together at times and I certainly think they'd bust their butts on defense.

In fact, I think it would energize the whole team and unify it - if our best three players were sitting two thirds of the game who could feel like he was being shortchanged for playing time? Our defense hasn't been bad thus far but it could sure use an infusion of intensity. If Jeff could get our three PGs to increase their defensive intensity, the rest of the team would follow suit.

If they were to play this style they could be contenders this year... I'd say 64 wins was back on the table!

Long road trips can pull teams together and that seems to have happened for the Suns - even Anthony Tolliver has become a positive contributor, which I didn't think was possible. Have to give Horny credit for sticking with him.

No credit for sticking with two PGs though - I liked the idea of having two guys to run the fastbreak but the break seems just as good with one PG because the other guys are running hard. And it seems to have very little value in the half court game - from Phrazbit's breakdown that is pretty evident.

 

[Phrazbit]

Thanks for posting that breakdown of our guard play, Phrazbit. It suggests that my idea of playing our 3 PG's singly and pouring lots of SGs onto the floor is the way to maximize our performance. Naturally, since our PGs would only average about 16 minutes on the floor per game they'd have plenty of energy to defend stoutly - one could even hope for some disruptive actions - certainly from Bled. After seeing how well Tony Snell did playing the 2 for Indiana, suggests that giving Marcus and TJ minutes at the 2 might be a worthwhile tactic - SGs are just not accustomed to dealing with such large strong players.

The driving idea behind the plan is maximize the value of our depth - just to be sure, yes, I'm suggesting making use of guys like Zoran and Goodwin and more PT for TJ. I think Goran would be energized if he and his brother got to play together at times and I certainly think they'd bust their butts on defense.

In fact, I think it would energize the whole team and unify it - if our best three players were sitting two thirds of the game who could feel like he was being shortchanged for playing time? Our defense hasn't been bad thus far but it could sure use an infusion of intensity. If Jeff could get our three PGs to increase their defensive intensity, the rest of the team would follow suit.

If they were to play this style they could be contenders this year... I'd say 64 wins was back on the table!

Long road trips can pull teams together and that seems to have happened for the Suns - even Anthony Tolliver has become a positive contributor, which I didn't think was possible. Have to give Horny credit for sticking with him.

No credit for sticking with two PGs though - I liked the idea of having two guys to run the fastbreak but the break seems just as good with one PG because the other guys are running hard. And it seems to have very little value in the half court game - from Phrazbit's breakdown that is pretty evident.

It would be an interesting concept in video game where egos don't exist but there is no way it would fly here. All of our PGs would be irate with that kind of rotation. I also don't think that Goodwin or Zoran are near good enough to make that worth it. They may have "SG" next to their name in the scorers book but I don't think either of them play the role better than our current rotation can.

The two PGs has worked in certain rotations and worked well and really, of the groups that have seen sample sizes worth respecting, the one that has worked the least is Dragic/Bledsoe/MorrisX2/Plumlee, but unfortunately its been the one we've seen the most of... until the last week or two. Coincidentally Dragic and Bledsoe have started putting together better games and been playing better together when removed from that particular lineup.

Its hard to look at our rotation splits and not come away thinking that the main problem has been these guys clicking with Plumlee and our spacing with Plumlee and not so much their struggles with each other. I'd like to see how Miles would do off the bench, if a simplified role makes the game start to come easier for him. Also pairing him with Thomas more and saving the Len/small ball looks for when Dragic and/or Bledsoe are out there. Thomas does far more isolation than the other two do. He does not need to worry about Plumlee's lack of threat as a pick man or how rarely Plumlee handles (or is ready for a pass) because Thomas does not bother with such trivialities when he can simply charge forward and toss up floaters or take a jumper on the run.

 

[marios13]

because Thomas does not bother with such trivialities when he can simply charge forward and toss up floaters or take a jumper on the run.

well Dragic does not have that luxury this year ... 17 minutes make that clear ...

At least you - Phrazbit always backup your statements with data not like Slinslin who is Bledsoe fanboy no. 1 on this forum ...

I imagine everyone would be frustrated like Goran is at this point. Coming into free agency after they paid 70 million to the same guy who forces him to play out of his optimal position and skill set.

I doubt he will have anywhere near the same efficiency numbers like last year unless something drastic doesn't happen like a new Bledsoe injury.
Don't get me wrong I don't want that to happen to Eric at all.

Both of them have their unique playing qualities. I think Goran has a better vision of the court though and better passing which we now don't really come to see in games.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Last year, once Bled went down, everything was on Goran's shoulders. All he had was Ish behind him. He played with abandon. Its obvious that the player having the hardest time adjusting is Goran.

The numbers also show that if we have to move one of the pg's the logical choice is Goran. I am not hating on him. I really like him. And it may be too early to make a quality evaluation, but that is what the preliminary numbers are showing.

 

[elindholm]

The numbers also show that if we have to move one of the pg's the logical choice is Goran. I am not hating on him. I really like him. And it may be too early to make a quality evaluation, but that is what the preliminary numbers are showing.

He also has the most trade value of the three.

 

[Sci Fi]

He's also far and away the best player and the only one capable of running a team offense. He makes players around him better. Bledsoe doesn't and probably not Thomas as well. Still, might as well trade him because he's not coming back to this mess.

 

[AzStevenCal]

He also has the most trade value of the three.

Maybe. And maybe all the trade partners have looked at Goran's stats last year (and earlier years) and realized he's a very average point guard when he didn't have someone like Channing Frye spacing the court for him. "Fairly average" has value but with all the max dollar rumors, I don't know how much value he'll bring in return.

There's no denying that he was great for much of last year but he's almost 29 years old and there's far more evidence of mediocrity in his past than there is of greatness. And he was only great when Channing was on the court with him. The difference with and without him was startling.

I like Goran and I love the fact that he made it clear he wanted to be here. But I don't think he's the right player for us unless we are going in search of another stretch big man. He's raised his profile enough that his agent will probably demand a contract equalling or exceeding that of Bledsoe's and IMO, without that extra court spacing, he's just not worth it. Not even close to it.

Right now, of the 3, I suspect Thomas has the most trade value although he's not the best of the group. I think he'd have the edge in trade value mostly because he's on a favorable contract for the next 3 years, something that can't be said about either Bledsoe or Dragic.

Steve

 

[slinslin]

He's also far and away the best player and the only one capable of running a team offense. He makes players around him better. Bledsoe doesn't and probably not Thomas as well. Still, might as well trade him because he's not coming back to this mess.

Where is your proof for that? Which player has Goran Dragic made better exactly?

Goran Dragic only has been this productive when the team was bad to mediocre and not winning. Now we are 9-5 and Dragic has been rather bad.

Last season our record was better when Dragic's stats were lower. His statistical peak went contrary to team performance overall .

 

[AzStevenCal]

Where is your proof for that? Which player has Goran Dragic made better exactly?

Goran Dragic only has been this productive when the team was bad to mediocre and not winning. Now we are 9-5 and Dragic has been rather bad.

Last season our record was better when Dragic's stats were lower. His statistical peak went contrary to team performance overall .

That's a flawed argument. It's no surprise that his numbers would go up and our success would go down with Bledsoe out.

Steve

 

[JCSunsfan]

All that said, I think I would be content with a three pg rotation of Bled, IT, and Ennis. We will have to over pay to keep Goran in the off-season anyway. While I am in no hurry to make a trade, I would not be opposed to this team seeing what Goran might net that would improve the long term prospects.

It would be interesting to see what his actual market value might be.

 

[BC867]

Now that Goran has let the cat out of the bag, how do you all think the Suns front office is reacting?

Are they looking away and leaving it all in Jeff's hands? Or working behind the scenes to make some decisions and moves?

 

[AzStevenCal]

Now that Goran has let the cat out of the bag, how do you all think the Suns front office is reacting?

Are they looking away and leaving it all in Jeff's hands? Or working behind the scenes to make some decisions and moves?

I don't think he let any cat out of the bag. I believe much is being made of very little.

Steve

 

[SirStefan32]

I don't think he let any cat out of the bag. I believe much is being made of very little.

Steve

Do you honestly think Dragic, an all-NBA player is OK playing second fiddle to Bledsoe? Do you think he is OK playing out of position so that Bledsoe can be "the man"?

 

[AzStevenCal]

Do you honestly think Dragic, an all-NBA player is OK playing second fiddle to Bledsoe? Do you think he is OK playing out of position so that Bledsoe can be "the man"?

I don't think he's playing second fiddle to Bledsoe. If he could make his shots at the same rate as last season he'd be running the offense a lot more. Most of the time I don't see Bledsoe demanding the ball. I see Goran trying to find a gap, failing to find that gap and then surrendering the ball because he has no idea what to do once that fails other than force up a shot.

I think he succeeded last year in large part due to Frye and without Frye his world has fallen apart. It has very little to do with Eric. I see the same Goran that played the year before we traded for Bledsoe. A middling point guard that is better at scoring than he is at setting the table or shooting from the outside.

Steve

 

[Sci Fi]

Now that Goran has let the cat out of the bag, how do you all think the Suns front office is reacting?

Are they looking away and leaving it all in Jeff's hands? Or working behind the scenes to make some decisions and moves?

The answer just came. Hornacek subbed Dragic after 2:58 in the second quarter. He's as good as gone.

 

[SirStefan32]

The answer just came. Hornacek subbed Dragic after 2:58 in the second quarter. He's as good as gone.

In all fairness, I would have taken him out of the game too.

 

[Sci Fi]

You don't take out All NBA players like that. Sorry. You just don't if you really want to keep them.

 

[Phrazbit]

The answer just came. Hornacek subbed Dragic after 2:58 in the second quarter. He's as good as gone.

lol, in the 2nd quarter of the last game of a long road trip... a guy gets subbed out. ITS ALL OVER FOR HIM!

 

[BC867]

I don't think he's playing second fiddle to Bledsoe. If he could make his shots at the same rate as last season he'd be running the offense a lot more.

Goran was not an All NBA Shooting Guard. He was an All NBA Point Guard when Bledsoe was lost for a half season. Which is why the Suns brought him back.

This year, he is competing with two other Point Guards for the alpha dog role. There is confusion from game to game and a lack of commitment on the part of the coaching staff.

Your basing Goran's performance on making shots rather than running the Point overlooks so much more of his Goran's performance.

I think he succeeded last year in large part due to Frye and without Frye his world has fallen apart. It has very little to do with Eric. I see the same Goran that played the year before we traded for Bledsoe. A middling point guard that is better at scoring than he is at setting the table or shooting from the outside.

I think you're giving too much credit to Fry's spreading the floor last season. Goran Dragic led the offense. He was the Point Guard.

 

[Phrazbit]

Goran was not an All NBA Shooting Guard. He was an All NBA Point Guard when Bledsoe was lost for a half season. Which is why the Suns brought him back.

This year, he is competing with two other Point Guards for the alpha dog role. There is confusion from game to game and a lack of commitment on the part of the coaching staff.

Your basing Goran's performance on making shots rather than running the Point overlooks so much more of his Goran's performance.


I think you're giving too much credit to Fry's spreading the floor last season. Goran Dragic led the offense. He was the Point Guard.

Dragic has never played like a protypical point guard. Whether Bledsoe is in the game or not he is not a facilitator, even as a "lead guard", the player he resembles most is Manu... a 2 guard. He is a scoring guard, you're waaaaay to caught up in his title.

Dragic needs someone to pick and roll with, his struggles are his own, not Bledsoe's.

And its about the team success, not Dragic's ability to win an individual award.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Goran was not an All NBA Shooting Guard. He was an All NBA Point Guard when Bledsoe was lost for a half season. Which is why the Suns brought him back.

This year, he is competing with two other Point Guards for the alpha dog role. There is confusion from game to game and a lack of commitment on the part of the coaching staff.

Your basing Goran's performance on making shots rather than running the Point overlooks so much more of his Goran's performance.


I think you're giving too much credit to Fry's spreading the floor last season. Goran Dragic led the offense. He was the Point Guard.

Last year, Goran shot noticeably better from the field and from the 3 point line when Frye was in the game. This year, Goran is shooting about like he did when Frye was out of the game last season. We are 9 - 5 against a weak schedule. If Goran was shooting like he had last year (with Frye on the court), we'd probably have 3 or 4 more wins and no one would be ranting about our trio of scoring guards.

The reason I'm making an issue about his shooting is because it's key to the other things he does. If he can't get layups and he can't make his outside shots, he can't run the offense. You can point to him being 3rd team all pro but notice that he's never been anywhere near that before. He only did it once, the one season where Frye was on the court with him and shooting 3's and working the pick and roll/pop with him. Before Frye, mediocrity. After Frye, again, mediocrity.

And Dragic was a 3rd team All NBA guard, not an All NBA point guard. They select 2 guards, 2 forwards and 1 center.

Steve

 

[sunsfan88]

Goran played 21 minutes tonight and just made a quiiiiick exit without speaking to reporters.

Mark my words: if no roster change is made, this is gonna be Dragic's last year in PHX. He won't come back, even if we match whatever offer he gets from other teams.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Mark my words: if no roster change is made, this is gonna be Dragic's last year in PHX. He won't come back, even if we match whatever offer he gets from other teams.

Here's hoping you're right. Someone is sure to offer him more than he's worth. I want him back on a reasonable contract if he still wants to be in Phoenix. But if he's entertaining the idea of 14 million or thereabouts, it's best to see him to the airport and wish him well.

Steve

 

[elindholm]

But if he's entertaining the idea of 14 million or thereabouts, it's best to see him to the airport and wish him well.

So he's not worth Bledsoe money? Isn't $14M/year exactly what Bledose got, before the expected salary cap increase?