Got into an argument with Kurt Warner tonight...

[RugbyMuffin]

frankly, this really is yesteryear's news.

Let's try to make judgements on how they handle things going forward with a long term labour agreement and sizable $$$ from the new TV contract in the not too distant.

Agreed.

Now go back, and get ready to kick this football. I promise this time, she won't move it. Moving the football before you kick it is yesterdays news, this time will be different, Rod Graves and company promised.

You must be registered for see images attach

 

[MoeIsBetter]

Talking to Darren Urban on twitter, various agents around the league, etc. All say the same thing.

Put yourself in the players/agents shoes. Why would I sign a contract, knowing I'm one of the marquee free agents of this years FA class, before I see what the market is paying other playmakers?

As his agent, I tell him to wait and get franchised but tell the organization the whole time that he will return with a mulit year deal, we just want to see what other teams are paying premier players because that's what we're negotiating on. Franchise him, but know we want to get a deal worked out long term (something CC has said numerous times. He doesn't mind being franchised but would love a long term deal).

The Cardinals look at the situation for what it is. We want to get CC back. We say at the beginning that we will start negotiating at the price we payed for Dockett. I hear them say they will wait. I make the plans to franchise him knowing that's the window that him and his agent are shooting for to get the best deal.

I know Graves works at the pace of a snail, but with everything out there (and knowing how agents work their deals) TO ME it is unfair to blame the Org yet. If we get into the season and he still is not locked up, MAJOR red flags at that point.

 

[MoeIsBetter]

Agreed.

These posts that state that we didn't need this guy or didn't need that guy. Seriously ?

Fine. I'll bite.

Great so for the next couple of decades we can continue to replace OLB, CB, ILB, NT, DE, OT, RB, WR every single year.

We will keep putting the Paris Lenon's of the world in the other positions than never get any attention because we are constantly needing to replace players after their first contract.

Cause there is no way if we kept a player or two we may have improved some positions in other areas.

But, no, really no, letting Dansby go was a great idea, it is not like we have been looking for a ILB since he left. Funny the same people who say re-signing Dansby would have cost too much, now complain about overpaying Stewart Bradley. So, the Cardinals pay Bradley instead of Dansby ? Come on!

Same with Boldin, that ball of trouble was so easily replaced by Stever Breaston, I mean Early Doucet, I mean Andre Roberts.

And it just goes on, and on, and on........

People keep bringing up 30 milliion in cap room because it was the BS reason why we didn't sign this player, or re-sign that player.

30 MILLION UNDER THE CAP AND PEOPLE ARE SAYING WE CAN'T AFFORD TO PAY PLAYERS ?!?!??!!? Just think about it for more than 30 seconds, and it will start to make sense.

It is like if I found $4,000.00 on the street, and told my wife she can't get a 0.50 candy bar, because it won't allow us to buy a $20 toaster. Come on! Basic math and logic here.

But, if people want to support the re-filling of the SAME position every 3 years no matter how good the player who the Cardinals let go was that is fine.

But, you could at least respect the opinion of the people that would want there team to be competitive in the offseason so they are competitive in the regular season.

I get the frustration but that 30 Million was only one year where we had that much. Take into account the money we spent the next season that we wouldn't have had if we'd spent the money the previous year. Just because the Cards don't spend it in one year doesn't mean they just don't want to spend. Their looking to maximize their spending and doing it on players they feel deserve it...not ones that are just there that we can go spend money on. Not signing Dansby, Rolle, and Q was not about saving 30 mill. It was about having money to keep spending on having a future in multiple other areas.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

I get the frustration but that 30 Million was only one year where we had that much.

The Cardinals history is littered with situations where they held off spending money on players to have a boat load of cash in the coffers. Is is much, much more than 1 year.

There IS a logical reason why so many are wary of the "New Cardinals". The rhetoric is nice to hear, but actions make one believe the pretty words.

 

[JeffGollin]

Whenever we look backward & pick apart players, the tendency is to overstate the case and make global declarations.

I don't think the FO has been brilliant or terrible, but instead somewhere in between. But the deal is - we've got to improve our batting average and financial creativity when it comes to retaining our core group of players.

We can't keep 'em all. We shouldn't release 'em all - we just have to find a way to make better decisions more often.

 

[52brandon]

Whenever we look backward & pick apart players, the tendency is to overstate the case and make global declarations.

I don't think the FO has been brilliant or terrible, but instead somewhere in between. But the deal is - we've got to improve our batting average and financial creativity when it comes to retaining our core group of players.

We can't keep 'em all. We shouldn't release 'em all - we just have to find a way to make better decisions more often.

agreed. I think the team's decisions have been better in the Graves/Whiz era though. Q is the one of the 3 I miss most, but shipping him got us legit replacements for both of the other 2. I think the FO did what they could with the situation. If we get a real #2 finally in this off-season, people will be fine with it. I still say replacing the tackles should be at the top of the to-do list though

 

[Buckybird]

Agreed.

Now go back, and get ready to kick this football. I promise this time, she won't move it. Moving the football before you kick it is yesterdays news, this time will be different, Rod Graves and company promised.

You must be registered for see images attach

But Ohhhh so true Rugby!!! These aren't your daddys Cardinals, but they still aren't up to the top-tier NFL organizations yet!!! And yet they keep sucking us in

 

[Cheesebeef]

Talking to Darren Urban on twitter, various agents around the league, etc. All say the same thing.

Put yourself in the players/agents shoes. Why would I sign a contract, knowing I'm one of the marquee free agents of this years FA class, before I see what the market is paying other playmakers?

This is ********. Why do you sign the contract during the season? Because at ANY time you're career can end in the blink of an eye and you get money when you can. The above acts like contract extensions never happen. That's ********. This deal should have been made BEFORE he blew up, when we knew he was a solid player but we didn't even begin TALKING to him until... when? Now?

 

[Cheesebeef]

I get the frustration but that 30 Million was only one year where we had that much. Take into account the money we spent the next season that we wouldn't have had if we'd spent the money the previous year.

you mean, the next season where we were STILL 8 million dollars under the cap and didn't go after a legit #2 WR or any OTs.

 

[Buckybird]

This is ********. Why do you sign the contract during the season? Because at ANY time you're career can end in the blink of an eye and you get money when you can. The above acts like contract extensions never happen. That's ********. This deal should have been made BEFORE he blew up, when we knew he was a solid player but we didn't even begin TALKING to him until... when? Now?

Don't blame the player or the agent...BLAME THE ORGANIZATION!

I still say we will never completely turn the corner until Bowie is gone from this earth, as morbid as it sounds. Good man, not so good owner!

 

[Chopper0080]

This is ********. Why do you sign the contract during the season? Because at ANY time you're career can end in the blink of an eye and you get money when you can. The above acts like contract extensions never happen. That's ********. This deal should have been made BEFORE he blew up, when we knew he was a solid player but we didn't even begin TALKING to him until... when? Now?

This is where I am at. The Campbell situation is mirroing the Dansby situation so much. We had some reservations about Dansby coming into that 2007 season just like we had reservations about Campbell this past offseason. Both had shown flashes, but both weren't the dominant players that we thought they could be. But, instead of taking a small gamble investing in young talent, we waited, and then were forced to watch the market dictate the asking price. Because we couldn't agree on numbers with Dansby, we franchised him, rather than slightly overpaying at that time. Then when Dansby had another solid, his asking price naturally rose, and once again the Cardinals failed to step to the plate. Finally we were in a position were we could not afford to franchise Dansby again, and had to let him test the open market where he found a better deal with a team that tipped the scales by making him feel wanted. Hopefully the Campbell story turns out differently, but right now it doesn't look good long term.

 

[52brandon]

you mean, the next season where we were STILL 8 million dollars under the cap and didn't go after a legit #2 WR or any OTs.

who was available? I'm still holding out hope for Manningham this off-season, but after the SB, I doubt we'll get the shot

 

[Crazy Canuck]

This is where I am at. The Campbell situation is mirroing the Dansby situation so much. We had some reservations about Dansby coming into that 2007 season just like we had reservations about Campbell this past offseason. Both had shown flashes, but both weren't the dominant players that we thought they could be. But, instead of taking a small gamble investing in young talent, we waited, and then were forced to watch the market dictate the asking price. Because we couldn't agree on numbers with Dansby, we franchised him, rather than slightly overpaying at that time. Then when Dansby had another solid, his asking price naturally rose, and once again the Cardinals failed to step to the plate. Finally we were in a position were we could not afford to franchise Dansby again, and had to let him test the open market where he found a better deal with a team that tipped the scales by making him feel wanted. Hopefully the Campbell story turns out differently, but right now it doesn't look good long term.

What Dansby, as of the day Calvin Pace signed, was more than the following contract to play ILB for the Cards. There were more than a few on this board at the time who thought the Pace contract was outrageous and Pace's demands no less so.

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/new-york-jets/calvin-pace/

 

[Cheesebeef]

What Dansby, as of the day Calvin Pace signed, was more than the following contract to play ILB for the Cards. There were more than a few on this board at the time who thought the Pace contract was outrageous and Pace's demands no less so.

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/new-york-jets/calvin-pace/

Dansby should have been taken care of a FULL YEAR before Pace even hit the market. Gerald Freaking Hayes got an extension before Dansby did.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

Dansby should have been taken care of a FULL YEAR before Pace even hit the market. Gerald Freaking Hayes got an extension before Dansby did.

Don't disagree, but, again - that suggestion was certainly not universal on this board. There were those who believed the Green BS that he was a malingerer and lazy... and would not put out if he got big bucks. Hayes, in contrast, was seen as a solid soldier.

 

[DoTheDew]

This is ********. Why do you sign the contract during the season? Because at ANY time you're career can end in the blink of an eye and you get money when you can. The above acts like contract extensions never happen. That's ********. This deal should have been made BEFORE he blew up, when we knew he was a solid player but we didn't even begin TALKING to him until... when? Now?

You can't honestly say that every player always thinks like this. There have been plenty of times in history where players have wanted to test the market. Not every player has the mentality that they are going to get hurt better take what they can get. Maybe they should, but they don't.

The truth is there is a lot going on behind the scenes in both camps that none of us know about. No use getting worked up on baseless assumptions.

 

[Cheesebeef]

You can't honestly say that every player always thinks like this. There have been plenty of times in history where players have wanted to test the market.

sure... some... but CC wasn't the number one defensive FA until towards the end of the season... but he was looked at as a core member of the team before that and THAT'S when you strike the deal, before they blow up. The idea that CC wouldn't have been amenable to a nice deal before or during the first half of the year... especially a guy who DIDN'T make a lot of money as a 2nd rounder and hasn't ever seen a big time contract... just doesn't wash with me.

The truth is there is a lot going on behind the scenes in both camps that none of us know about. No use getting worked up on baseless assumptions.

we KNOW the Cardinals weren't even talking about an extension during the season. CC said as much... and Urban intimated as much as well. That's not assumption.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Don't disagree, but, again - that suggestion was certainly not universal on this board. There were those who believed the Green BS that he was a malingerer and lazy... and would not put out if he got big bucks. Hayes, in contrast, was seen as a solid soldier.

Hayes was seen as easier to sign because he didn't make the impact Dansby did... plain and simple IMO (and that's all it is... my opinion).

And once we fired DG and realized he was out to lunch and Dansby was an impact player AGAIN, what was the reason we didn't give him an extension? Because we were still believing the opinion of DG's ******** which was just fired?

 

[Cardiac]

Don't blame the player or the agent...BLAME THE ORGANIZATION!

I still say we will never completely turn the corner until Bowie is gone from this earth, as morbid as it sounds. Good man, not so good owner!

This is exactly how I feel.


I may take it a step further and and say that Graves takes too much heat because he doesn't have full control and therefore may not be able to make a good first offer to Warner or pay CC a year before he blows up or .....

It could also be that Graves sucks but I firmly believe that Graves is adequate and the issue lies with Sr.

When was the last time this team extended a player during the season. I for one can't think of any but maybe I am misremembering.

What I do know is that besides Plummer this team never paid big bucks to extend a player. Then of course that was a bad decision based on how things played out and Billy got gun shy and it reinforced his frugal ways.

Now since Michael and the stadium have arrived we have extended Fitz (twice) and Adud and Warner. Still far to few but FAR better than in the past.

 

[Cheesebeef]

This is exactly how I feel.


I may take it a step further and and say that Graves takes too much heat because he doesn't have full control and therefore may not be able to make a good first offer to Warner or pay CC a year before he blows up or .....

It could also be that Graves sucks but I firmly believe that Graves is adequate and the issue lies with Sr.

When was the last time this team extended a player during the season. I for one can't think of any but maybe I am misremembering.

feels like it was back in 2006 when they signed Hayes and Dockett to contract extensions. Dockett, Fitz and AW were all signed in the off-season if I recall correctly. could be wrong there though.

 

[Syracusecards]

He was worth every penny of it especially when you consider what we are paying Kolb. Why all the Kurt hate? If he was so money hungry why did he walk from the second year of that contract and leave $11m on the table.

Seriously, nothing but love for KW.

 

[MoeIsBetter]

Seriously, nothing but love for KW.

Don't get it twisted, I love Kurt Warner. He's my favorite QB of all time...but that does not mean I agree with the way he would have "handled the situation".

And I somewhat agree with cheesebeef in the fact that CC should have been done long before now...but that was not my point. My point was the if we gave out those three contracts, right now we would be financially screwed. I know everyone is saying "but we had $30 mill..." but if you give out a max contract to BOTH ILB and FS, along with paying Q like a #1, were screwed in the CAP and never get Fitz signed. We can argue dollars and cents all we want, but those max contracts grow each year and I'm not sure we'd have a lot of the players on our roster now had those contracts been given out, or been able to sign a few of our new up-and-comers because we're already strapped in the CAP.

 

[ActingWild]

Point of order:

Kurt Warner stated on numerous occassions that he would give up $1,000,000 of his last contract to use towards re-signing Anquan Boldin. That IS being a team player and putting the good of the team ahead of himself (just not ahead of Bidwill holding onto a million dollars in his pocket).

Washington > Dansby
This is not a valid argument as we could have had them BOTH. This is not an either or situation and our D would have been SICK with those two leading our LB corps. Cardinals screwed the pooch on this one. Similar to Anquan, the organization completely alienated Dansby to where he was going with the best offer outside of ours.

If people want to defend the team because of the strike for not spending the $30 mil, fine. However, the $8 million does come into play, not because they didn't overspend on mediocre players but because they didn't use it to extend or retain players in the immediate years leading up to this one. That said, there WERE players we could have used that $8 million on as there were top talent players available and that $8 million (or part of it) would have gone a long way to sway them to us (Asomugha for one).

 

[Cheesebeef]

Don't get it twisted, I love Kurt Warner. He's my favorite QB of all time...but that does not mean I agree with the way he would have "handled the situation".

And I somewhat agree with cheesebeef in the fact that CC should have been done long before now...but that was not my point. My point was the if we gave out those three contracts, right now we would be financially screwed. I know everyone is saying "but we had $30 mill..." but if you give out a max contract to BOTH ILB and FS, along with paying Q like a #1, were screwed in the CAP and never get Fitz signed. We can argue dollars and cents all we want, but those max contracts grow each year and I'm not sure we'd have a lot of the players on our roster now had those contracts been given out, or been able to sign a few of our new up-and-comers because we're already strapped in the CAP.

it's should have never gotten to that point with Dansby. Deal should have been in place years ago. To be honest, i don't care all that much about Rolle and to be honest, Boldin getting 8 mill per year isn't really breaking the bank (which is what his contract extension was). The idea that this team can only pay 3 players big contracts just doesn't wash with me.

 

[Brian in Mesa]

He was worth every penny of it especially when you consider what we are paying Kolb. Why all the Kurt hate? If he was so money hungry why did he walk from the second year of that contract and leave $11.5m on the table.

Because he really wanted $14-16 million ...