Haley vs Whis

[Shane]

Have you ever heard of sarcasm? Shanahan, Reid, and Holmgren all called the plays when they were head coaches. Are you disputing that?
By the way, what is a genus? I love irony!

Kinda funny how we name several coaches who have done it with great success and he has nothing to say. Like he thought he was going to stump us with the question

 

[lauraw]

Mr. Shane, do you think there could be a danger that Whizz could spread himself too thin in both roles in any situation you can think of that may come up this year? I've always blamed high penalties on bad coaching period, so that's lacking..what else is lacking in attention to details?

 

[Big D]

I think the right HC can be successful calling his own plays. In Whis' case however it has been proven that once he relinquished those duties to Haley the offense improved.

The guys that have been brought up as far as head men calling their own plays are guys that had a decade + HC experience not to mention decades of coaching experience prior to becoming head coaches. Whis just isn't on any of those guys' level, not even close. Maybe one day he could possibly be somewhere down the line, but in the meantime (now), our offense is struggling while he is trying to learn on the job.

We made it to the SB last year. As many years of crappy football as I've witnessed I really don't want to have to take any steps back in any shape or form and I feel like that is the case going from from a situation where Whis relinquised the play calling duties to Haley (which was done for a reason, right?), us then losing Haley to a HCing job in KC, and now Whis again resuming those playcalling duties. It's clearly a step backwards IMO.

 

[CardLogic]

The plays werent the problem. It was the lack of focus and execution by the players.

No need to make something more than it was. If the team would have properly executed the plays that were called it would have been a win for the Cardinal's. Plain and simple.

The 49er's were more focused and determined to win than were the Cardinals.

 

[lauraw]

BigD and CardLogic, I think you both make some excellent points about Whizz and the offensive execution. You opened my mind!

 

[Pariah]

No need to make something more than it was. If the team would have properly executed the plays that were called it would have been a win for the Cardinal's. Plain and simple.

The 49er's were more focused and determined to win than were the Cardinals.

I don't think there's going to be any way to verify it unless Whiz gives up the play calling duties and things take a dramitic turn one way or the other...but I think the point many posters are making here is that maybe execution could be fixed through coaching if whiz focused on that and wasn't distracted by playcalling.

I know many of you know it, but I'm getting the impression many of us think NFL playcalling is more akin to playcalling in Madden--based largely on gut feel. There's quite a bit of "science" and complexity that goes into it and it's not simply a matter of "I think this might work here" (though I think the best play callers have a lot of that in spades, too). It IS a focus-consuming job to call plays right.

JMHO

(PS--I haven't made a judgment call yet on whether or not Whiz can do it...but I do think we miss haley; it worked when he called plays and now the cards are trying to adjust...they might recover all of that mojo, they might not)

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

Sorry John but you are embelleshing quite a bit. Warner gave praise to Haley saying that they had good dialogue during the games talking over what they want to do etc.... When Warner is asked those question by the media what do you expect him to say? Hes going to praise him in anyway he can. Thats just the person Warner is. We already were told that Warner would audible out of runs way more often than the coaches would like and that it was source of friction at times. As far as changing Warners style? I think you are reaching with that. Warner has been the same QB he always has been all the way back to his days in St. Louis.

Of course Haley gameplanned every week it was his job. He was the OC and was given full reign so I would expect nothing less. Many many of those gameplans were less than stellar. But many of you seem to forget that. The bottom line is that he took the time to learn Whiz's offense and then took over the playcalling. Its even more funny the # of posters on here that think our game management was so much better last year under Haley. We were good for at least 1 or 2 DOG calls per game under his play calling as well. Its not the playcalling thats the problem its Warner's innexcusable non chalant attitude bringing the team to the line and not paying one iota of attention to the clock. Much like the one he got last Sunday where he had more than ample time to get the ball snapped.

I never read one single shred of anything saying that the fans in Pittsburgh didnt like Whisenhunt or his gameplans. The only source of friction there was with Roethlisberger. I remember very clearly that Pittsburgh was praised for their innovative game plannning and using their gadget plays at precisely the right time to catch the other teams off guard. Whisenhunt wa sought after for a reason.


About the only comment I totally agree with you on is Fitz praise of Haley. But Fitz says and I believe him that he has the drive to get better all on his own now. So once again Haley is an afterthought.

Can you give an example of how the playcalling was so atrocious IYO? Because I beg to differ. The plays werent the problem. It was the lack of focus and execution by the players.

Actually if you listen to the NFL bLitz on August 12th or 14th (cant remember the exact date) Warner not only praises Haley but talks about how he doesnt have the same relationship with Whiz "..because Whiz is the head coach and has other repsonsibilities". He goes on to say that he still speaks with Haley and although he felt they would be fine, Haley is the person he credits for helping him "change". Warner also says Haley was much moe than his OC and that the team -including the offensive line and WR's - credit Haley for pushing them and challenging them like no other coach has in Warners career.

Warner of 2008 was certainly not the same QB of years past. The reason the Rams let him go and the Giants let him go, inlarge part, was because he fumbled the ball too much, held onto it too long, and took a ton of sacks. It was routinly discussed by Haley and Whiz last year that they gave Warner credit for "changing his style of play at his age". There are also a few threads on this board about the same topic.

I could go research the Pittsburg stuff for you, but honestly I just dont have time. I can only tell you my first hand knowledge of the situation from Pitt fans and none of them were sorry to see Whiz go as OC. In fact, a lot of speculation as to why Whiz didnt get the job in Pitt was due to his relationship with Rothleisberger and that some members of the Pitt front office didnt care for his play calling and game management. Again that is only speculation.

My contention isnt that Whiz isnt a good coach-I think we are running off track here. I think he is a great HC and has really changed the culture of this team. My argument is that Haley is going to be missed. I really feel that Warner is legitmely impacted by the loss of Haley (from his own words) and he just doesnt have the same type of relationship with Whiz. Haley, with Whiz's blessing, allowed Warner to run the show last year and put him in situations where he felt comfortable. Hopefully Whiz is still allowing that this year, who knows.

Play calling was atrocious this week. I should say situation play calling was atrocious. Gave up on the running game too quick. Passed on 3rd and short when we should be banging Hightower through the 0 gap. Wells came in, gave a spark, then had 2 carries the rest of the game.

I totally agree on execution, I am just saying situaionally, I thought the play calls were poor and predictable.

I agree on the clock management piece. Happened under Haley as well. I think it is Warner and I am not sure why he has such a hard time with that??

I think this team will be fine offensivley - although I am concerned that teams now have a blueprint for shutting down the Cards WR (2 deep all the time)- but the loss of Haley cannot be underestimated. Oh, and there are far more cases of HC calling plays failing than succeeding. The guys you named earlier are hall of fame coaches. It just doesnt work intodays NFL. Too much responsibility for the HC imo...

 

[CardLogic]

You've got some good points, FREAK.

Warner of 2008 was certainly not the same QB of years past. The reason the Rams let him go and the Giants let him go, inlarge part, was because he fumbled the ball too much, held onto it too long, and took a ton of sacks. It was routinly discussed by Haley and Whiz last year that they gave Warner credit for "changing his style of play at his age". There are also a few threads on this board about the same topic.

Agreed. He needs to not regress.

I agree on the clock management piece. Happened under Haley as well. I think it is Warner and I am not sure why he has such a hard time with that??

This has been a symptom of Warner's play going back to his years with the Rams. I have no idea why, or what the issue is but I get the impression that Warner just doesn't see this as a big deal.

Play calling was atrocious this week. I should say situation play calling was atrocious. Gave up on the running game too quick. Passed on 3rd and short when we should be banging Hightower through the 0 gap. Wells came in, gave a spark, then had 2 carries the rest of the game.

I totally agree on execution, I am just saying situaionally, I thought the play calls were poor and predictable.

Yeh, I don't know why they didn't go more to what was working!

And conversely, they stuck with stuff too long when it wasn't working. Not just offense either. On the 49er's single long drive for a TD it appeared that San Francisco had adjusted to the Cardinals defensive attack and had figured out how to attack it. At some point in that drive the Cardinals needed to counter with a different alignment/approach, but they just kept doing what had worked for them all game up to then. Big mistake, imo.