Haley vs Whis

[Shane]

Andy Reid has done it for years, so you're saying if he didn't that maybe they'd get over the hump?

I kinda think it's not that big of an issue, in a perfect world I'd agree but it's more important someone competent does it than just making sure that's not the HC IMO.

Sometimes there just isn't anyone better for the job, if we had gotten a new OC then the mantra would of been he's just off or just new or there was not rapport yet.

To me it's just an excuse.

Many coaches have done it over the years succesfully. I think saying Whiz cant is tantamount to calling him a mental midget.

 

[Shane]

Ok, like I said it definitely didn't seem that way to me. What I do know for certain is our scoring and yardage was better with Haley calling the plays than it has been with Whis doing so.

As bad and out of sync as the offense has looked through the preseason and in the 1st regular season game Whis has to shoulder a good part of the blame. He is the HC. he decides who plays and he is the one calling the plays, so as far as I'm concerned he is at the very root of our struggles.

Sorry bud but you are just seeing something in a very small window(1 game) and trying to interpret more out of something than there is.

Go back and look at at least 5 games last yeat under Haley where the offense was just as bad or worse. Much worse. The first game last year against SF while a victory was no offensive juggernaut. Not even close.

 

[Doug]

If coach Whiz can't stop all the penaties like Denny Green could'nt then what do we do? Will he really take out all of the starters?

 

[Big D]

Sorry bud but you are just seeing something in a very small window(1 game) and trying to interpret more out of something than there is.

Go back and look at at least 5 games last yeat under Haley where the offense was just as bad or worse. Much worse. The first game last year against SF while a victory was no offensive juggernaut. Not even close.

Well I'm also looking at 2007 when I grade Whis as a HC and play caller so it's not just a 1 game window I'm basing my opinion on. Yes the offense struggled at times last year. In that 1st SF game last season we scored more points and racked up more yardage than we did yesterday and as you stated most importantly we won that game. That game was also on the road and we saw some of the colossal eggs we had the tendency to lay when playing away from home. If you look at our home games last season we were scoring about 30 a game and really only had one game on par with yesterday's offensive effort.

I'm gonna say it's just a case of people seeing what they want to see on this

Probably

 

[john h]

I'm sure they're different in styles of play calling but we have mostly all the same plays in the book.

The team knows all the plays, I'm sure Whis did what he felt was best given the circumstance but for all those loving on Haley remember this.

He was the OC when we got killed in Philly and NE all over the East Coast.

He was the OC vs the Jets too.

We just showed up and laid an egg, we were hurt, things were goofed and the other team wanted it more IMO.

This season is going to be strange IMO, we're hung over from a brutal SB loss, that's just a fact, we have big heads, we have team dissent in terms of contracts, we have a lot to deal with, most of the same things that other teams deal with losing the SB.

Long term though there are great signs, we'll just have to fight through this and get a new team identity, Haley is gone and Warner is getting older, we need more balance going forward anyhow, this year we can just see what happens but we're going to have to rebuild a team ID and that's going to stink during the season, next year I think we have a legit shot if we build it this year to win it all.

Unless we have a respectable year this season my "guess" is next year Matt will finally get a shot as the starter. A bad year and Kurt might even want to retire. A number of big hits on Warner like yesterday and he may not be able to finish the season. I am not sure I recall so many penalities by a Cardinal team. Is this a lack of coaching or just players not thinking. That has got to stop. Way to many missed catches and no long balls which is unusual for Warner with the likes of Fitz out there.

The Bears lost their all-pro LB for the year. That is one big loss.

 

[Pariah]

Losing Haley isn't a small thing to overcome. That doesn't mean yesterday was on Whiz's playcalling; it doesn't mean the cardinals can't overcome it. But there's a reason the man was in demand in the offseason. He's smart and he has a good offensive mind. If he wasn't important to the team you can bet the Bidwills would have replaced him long ago with someone cheaper.

 

[conraddobler]

Unless we have a respectable year this season my "guess" is next year Matt will finally get a shot as the starter. A bad year and Kurt might even want to retire. A number of big hits on Warner like yesterday and he may not be able to finish the season. I am not sure I recall so many penalities by a Cardinal team. Is this a lack of coaching or just players not thinking. That has got to stop. Way to many missed catches and no long balls which is unusual for Warner with the likes of Fitz out there.

The Bears lost their all-pro LB for the year. That is one big loss.

The false starts are the worst.

The holding stuff is running around like a plauge more so than most years, holding goes on all the time, if they want to get tacky and call that you're toast.

I'd focus on the false starts more than anything, one false start you lose your starting job.

Not saying you'll miss the whole game but you won't be the starter, too many more and you're gone has to be the rule on false starts.

 

[Catfish]

I don't like the wasted time outs and delay of game penalties that have seemed to go hand in hand with Whis calling the plays. It was a major problem in Whis' first year and it was a little bit of a bugaboo yesterday. It seemed like once Whis did turn over the play calling duties to Haley we didn't really see those things happening nearly as much.

You are spot on Big D. That situation did clear up for the most part when Haley took over the play calling. Clock management got much better. I don't believe that happened because Haley is better at it-----just that it let Whizenhunt finally (SEE) what was happening in real time and he could make the adjustments and the plays still got in on time with Haley calling them. That didn't happen when Whiz had his head in the playbook.

 

[lauraw]

I think Whizz can be a fine OC and HC both.. He does need to listen more to KW, PCoordinator and RC Russ Grimm and not try to do it all himself..

 

[Bobcat]

Haley being gone is just people reaching for an excuse. Nothing more or less.

Name me coaches who have had Success Being a Head Coach and Calling the Offensive Play's at the same time...???

BOBCAT

 

[Shane]

Name me coaches who have had Success Being a Head Coach and Calling the Offensive Play's at the same time...???

BOBCAT

Mike Shanahan, Mike Holmgren, Andy Reid, Bill Walsh just to name a few. All superbowl winning coaches except for Reid who overall record speaks for itself. I know there are more too.

 

[bg7brd]

Mike Shanahan, Mike Holmgren, Andy Reid, Bill Walsh just to name a few. All superbowl winning coaches except for Reid who overall record speaks for itself. I know there are more too.

Add John Gruden

 

[MadCardDisease]

Haley being gone is just people reaching for an excuse. Nothing more or less.

Totally agree

 

[Bobcat]

Mike Shanahan, Mike Holmgren, Andy Reid, Bill Walsh just to name a few. All superbowl winning coaches except for Reid who overall record speaks for itself. I know there are more too.

Mike Shanahan Called the Plays for Bill Walsh...!!!

Mike Holmgren Called the Plays for Bill Walsh...!!!

Both of those coaches were OC's for Walsh...!!!

Please get your facts Straight...!!!

 

[Shane]

Mike Shanahan Called the Plays for Bill Walsh...!!!

Mike Holmgren Called the Plays for Bill Walsh...!!!

Both of those coaches were OC's for Walsh...!!!

Please get your facts Straight...!!!

You may be right but I know for a fact at some point in time Walsh called his own plays. But just because a team has an OC doesnt mean they call the plays.

Either way I answered you and it is proven that it can be done and done VERY well.

 

[bg7brd]

Mike Shanahan Called the Plays for Bill Walsh...!!!

Mike Holmgren Called the Plays for Bill Walsh...!!!

Both of those coaches were OC's for Walsh...!!!

Please get your facts Straight...!!!

And Whisenhunt called plays for Bill Cower... what's your point?


They all called plays when they were HC's

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

Haley being gone is just people reaching for an excuse. Nothing more or less.

Shane I respectfully disagree with this. So does Warner.

Haley was a huge part of the Cardinals offense and was the main game-planner as the OC. He is the one that is credited for bring Warner back and changing his style of play. He is credited for challenging Fitz and Leinart and making them better players. His personality and voice have been reasons cited by many players as to why they played better at the end of last season. Not to mentione he was the OC - and only the OC- not HC and OC combined, and had the time to spend with individual players to get them to buy into his system.

I liek WHiz a lot, but keep in mind before he came to AZ a lot of fans and Pittsburgh press didnt care for him as OC because they didnt like his game plans and play calls, and they didnt like his love/hate with Ben Rothelisberger deal. Whether these things are WHiz fault or not I dont know, but the play calling last week was atrocious and no one looked like they had a fire in their belly or were being challenged to step up in the 4th quarter.

I think you seriously underestimate the value of Haley and even more so I think the idea of Whiz being HC and OC is a bad one.

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

I dont believe it is sooo certain.

Look around the NFL....it is pretty close to a certainty!

 

[FJM]

Is the problem how we ran our training camp? Seeing how most of the teams played the first week ....They were ready. Sure we had some players dinged but as coaches say we play the game with who we have and it's up to the replacements to step up.
They were not ready. Why not?

 

[nashman]

I stand by that Whiz should be the HC and nothing else too much to manage and be trying to call plays.

 

[CardLogic]

We won one more regular season game with Haley calling the plays than Whis.

I'm gonna say it's just a case of people seeing what they want to see on this, I don't doubt it's different but what kind of game would Haley call with two of the top three WR's not 100%?

That's a better question IMO.

There is only so much you can do.

Exactly! The loss to the 49er's was not about playcalling, it was about execution.

We have an uptemp offense and unless we are scrapping this season for a retooling job we have to run the plays that make us successful. We have to throw the ball. We do not have the line personel to run smashmouth. It will be a long season if that is what we do. After a Super Bowl season and alot of good feelings if we change now to a conservative offense we will suffer the consquence of a losing season and one more season of the Triumphverat of Warner, Fitz, and Boldin getting older.

Posts talking about Whiz conservative playcalling and wanting to run the ball are way off target. (Not singling out Rats, it's just one example.)

Against the 49er's the Cardinal's offense ran 64 plays; Warner threw the ball 44 times! Wells and Hightower only had 15 carries total! Hightower was not the first option on the majority of the passes thrown to him; there was either no time, or no one open downfield.

The Cardinals lost the game due to poor execution, not poor game planning!

 

[Bobcat]

And Whisenhunt called plays for Bill Cower... what's your point?


They all called plays when they were HC's

Cower was the "HEAD COACH" genus, not the offensive coordinator. Whiz was the offensive coodinator calling the plays, not Cower. That is the difference. Head Coach did the Head Coaching and Whiz did play calling as the Offensive Coordinator.

BOBCAT

 

[WildBB]

The Cardinals were way too predictable in that game. You could tell if they were going to run or pass, just the way they were lining up. I'm sure SF could tell as well because they tee'd up on Warner.

Alot had to do with the penalties and long yardage situations, but even before those they were way too predictable on offense.

 

[Shane]

Shane I respectfully disagree with this. So does Warner.

Haley was a huge part of the Cardinals offense and was the main game-planner as the OC. He is the one that is credited for bring Warner back and changing his style of play. He is credited for challenging Fitz and Leinart and making them better players. His personality and voice have been reasons cited by many players as to why they played better at the end of last season. Not to mentione he was the OC - and only the OC- not HC and OC combined, and had the time to spend with individual players to get them to buy into his system.

I liek WHiz a lot, but keep in mind before he came to AZ a lot of fans and Pittsburgh press didnt care for him as OC because they didnt like his game plans and play calls, and they didnt like his love/hate with Ben Rothelisberger deal. Whether these things are WHiz falt or not I dont know, but the play calling last week was atrocious and no one looked like they had a fire in their belly or were being challenged to step up in the 4th quarter.

I think you seriously underestimate the value of Haley and even more so I think the idea of Whiz being HC and OC is a bad one.

Sorry John but you are embelleshing quite a bit. Warner gave praise to Haley saying that they had good dialogue during the games talking over what they want to do etc.... When Warner is asked those question by the media what do you expect him to say? Hes going to praise him in anyway he can. Thats just the person Warner is. We already were told that Warner would audible out of runs way more often than the coaches would like and that it was source of friction at times. As far as changing Warners style? I think you are reaching with that. Warner has been the same QB he always has been all the way back to his days in St. Louis.

Of course Haley gameplanned every week it was his job. He was the OC and was given full reign so I would expect nothing less. Many many of those gameplans were less than stellar. But many of you seem to forget that. The bottom line is that he took the time to learn Whiz's offense and then took over the playcalling. Its even more funny the # of posters on here that think our game management was so much better last year under Haley. We were good for at least 1 or 2 DOG calls per game under his play calling as well. Its not the playcalling thats the problem its Warner's innexcusable non chalant attitude bringing the team to the line and not paying one iota of attention to the clock. Much like the one he got last Sunday where he had more than ample time to get the ball snapped.

I never read one single shred of anything saying that the fans in Pittsburgh didnt like Whisenhunt or his gameplans. The only source of friction there was with Roethlisberger. I remember very clearly that Pittsburgh was praised for their innovative game plannning and using their gadget plays at precisely the right time to catch the other teams off guard. Whisenhunt wa sought after for a reason.


About the only comment I totally agree with you on is Fitz praise of Haley. But Fitz says and I believe him that he has the drive to get better all on his own now. So once again Haley is an afterthought.

Can you give an example of how the playcalling was so atrocious IYO? Because I beg to differ. The plays werent the problem. It was the lack of focus and execution by the players.

 

[bg7brd]

Cower was the "HEAD COACH" genus, not the offensive coordinator. Whiz was the offensive coodinator calling the plays, not Cower. That is the difference. Head Coach did the Head Coaching and Whiz did play calling as the Offensive Coordinator.

BOBCAT

Have you ever heard of sarcasm? Shanahan, Reid, and Holmgren all called the plays when they were head coaches. Are you disputing that?
By the way, what is a genus? I love irony!