Hall of Fame Discussion

[arwillan]

Basically i had an interesting little discussion with some friends today and i thought you basketball fans would like some food for thought.

the question is simple:If the nba was to say "only 10 players currently in the nba can make the HoF", who would you pick as those 10 players?



it's harder than it seems at first, you have to remember all of the great performances people have had. it's also hard to rank people on results in their career, not just potential for people like Bynum, amare, etc etc.

we more or less came up with

1)shaq
2)kobe
3)horry
4)duncan
5)Nash
6) iverson
7) KG
8) dirk
9) if reggie miller comes back, then him
10) and a toss up between ray allen, dwyane wade, rasheed wallace, LeBron, kidd, t-mac etc etc.


discuss

the way i thought of it to ease the choices was this:
when people look back in time on this era in basketball, who would you say shaped the generation? who were the 10 who shaped this time in basketball? Pretend as if someone who has never seen an nba game asks 20 years down the road about this time in basketball, which 10 players are THE players of this time?

 

[azmike74]

I've got to disagree on Horry. He has the rings, but I've never seen him as a HOF player, more of a very good role player who has been fortunate enough to be on good teams. I could replace him with Jason Kidd off the top of my head.

 

[arwillan]

I've got to disagree on Horry. He has the rings, but I've never seen him as a HOF player, more of a very good role player who has been fortunate enough to be on good teams. I could replace him with Jason Kidd off the top of my head.

i had jason kidd on that list for the last spot. i couldnt imagine the guy who has made so many clutch shots, even though granted he is a role player, not making it in. he has the most rings of current nba players, and iirc he has the 2nd most rings all time (or something close to that). with that i propose this question, do you think he will make it in to the HoF (assuming the only 10 get in thing is non-existent)? i would have to say yes, thought it pains me to say so since i am a suns fan

 

[green machine]

i had jason kidd on that list for the last spot. i couldnt imagine the guy who has made so many clutch shots, even though granted he is a role player, not making it in. he has the most rings of current nba players, and iirc he has the 2nd most rings all time (or something close to that). with that i propose this question, do you think he will make it in to the HoF (assuming the only 10 get in thing is non-existent)? i would have to say yes, thought it pains me to say so since i am a suns fan

Steve Kerr isn't a hall of famer and he hit some big playoff shots and has quite a few rings too.

No way Horry makes it, no way.

 

[azmike74]

I totally understand your point, and maybe it's because I hate him, but I just don't think he measures up to the HOF. He has the rings to prove it, but the numbers just aren't there for me. His name escapes me, but I think the Celtics have a guy who is better than Horry and he doesn't have any rings. BTW, this is a cool topic, I don't normally post on the Suns board, I just lurk a lot. Edit: Paul Pierce was the guy I was thinking of, I think he is a better player than Horry, but I don't see him enough to really gauge if he is HOF worthy.

 

[arwillan]

Steve Kerr isn't a hall of famer and he hit some big playoff shots and has quite a few rings too.

No way Horry makes it, no way.

though i have never heard of "big shot steve"

agree to disagree on horry i suppose

 

[arwillan]

I totally understand your point, and maybe it's because I hate him, but I just don't think he measures up to the HOF. He has the rings to prove it, but the numbers just aren't there for me. His name escapes me, but I think the Celtics have a guy who is better than Horry and he doesn't have any rings. BTW, this is a cool topic, I don't normally post on the Suns board, I just lurk a lot.

maybe paul pierce? im not sure who you have in mind. anyway, i think the rings are key with this discussion. otherwise you could say lebron easily, but he hasnt quite gotten to that last level yet. he will, just hasnt yet. thats imo the only reason you can throw dwyane wade and company into the discussion, they HAVE lead teams to a ring

 

[azmike74]

maybe paul pierce? im not sure who you have in mind. anyway, i think the rings are key with this discussion. otherwise you could say lebron easily, but he hasnt quite gotten to that last level yet. he will, just hasnt yet. thats imo the only reason you can throw dwyane wade and company into the discussion, they HAVE lead teams to a ring

That would explain why you left Amare of your ballot and yet considered Wade. I was wondering about that.

 

[dodie53]

remove horry from that list..

add kidd instead

 

[arwillan]

remove horry from that list..

add kidd instead

or make your own list this is purely opinion, i think horry, you think kidd which is what creates the interesting discussion. some might say other pistons players from the times they won rings like rip hamilton, or maybe chauncey? maybe you want to say carmelo has earned it with the small time he has been in the nba. all about what, in your opinion, means someone deserves to make the HoF. i didnt expect much support for horry on a suns board

 

[azmike74]

or make your own list this is purely opinion, i think horry, you think kidd which is what creates the interesting discussion. some might say other pistons players from the times they won rings like rip hamilton, or maybe chauncey? maybe you want to say carmelo has earned it with the small time he has been in the nba. all about what, in your opinion, means someone deserves to make the HoF. i didnt expect much support for horry on a suns board

With the exception of Horry, I have no arguments with your list. I would trade him out for Kidd, and then the last 2 open spots are open for me because I don't have 2 more players that stand out too much right now. I do agree that if Reggie Miller comes back, he belongs on the list also. My 10th spot goes to Amare.

 

[azirish]

I don't think it is realistic to compare guys over 30 with guys under 26. The over 30 guys can point to a long career and overall success. The younger players have hopefully not peaked and you have to project into the future how they will do.

BTW, the NBA does not have its own HOF. The basketball HOF includes college.

 

[SactownSunsFan]

No on Horry. You don't make the HOF averaging 7 points, 5 boards, and 2 assists a game for a career. He's just been fortunate to have been on some great, great teams, and has made some significant, though not hall-worthy, contributions for those teams. Look at who he's played with: Shaq, Duncan and Hakeem. You're talking about the three most dominant frontcourt players in the league during their respective primes.

 

[elindholm]

Horry is out for sure; I'd lay 20:1 that he doesn't make it. Voters aren't that easily persuaded by statistical aberration and a catchy nickname. And Horry's image took a big hit with the Nash body slam.

You have to start with the locks, and that means Kidd before Nowitzki. So far, Nowitzki is on the bubble. He'll most likely make it, but all he's done to this point is win one MVP and come up short in two consecutive postseasons. If his career ended today, he'd be a question mark.

You can't say that about the current locks: O'Neal, Duncan, Bryant, Garnett, Iverson, Kidd ... and Payton, who is still officially in the league and is absolutely in. They're in even if they never play another minute. As of right now, McGrady and Carter have amassed better credentials than Nowitzki or arguably even Nash. Nash is a tough call, since he's been dominant for only three years, and typically the HoF wants to see more longevity than that. If he can play at close to this level for two more years, he should be fine.

There are lots of other veterans who have a chance, including even the likes of Mourning, who could get some feel-good votes.

Of the younger crowd, of course there are many who are likely to make it, but since this list is so short, we have to stick with the sure things. Thus:

O'Neal
Duncan
Bryant
Garnett
Iverson
Kidd
Payton
Carter
McGrady
Nash

 

[azirish]

Horry is out for sure; I'd lay 20:1 that he doesn't make it. Voters aren't that easily persuaded by statistical aberration and a catchy nickname. And Horry's image took a big hit with the Nash body slam.

You have to start with the locks, and that means Kidd before Nowitzki. So far, Nowitzki is on the bubble. He'll most likely make it, but all he's done to this point is win one MVP and come up short in two consecutive postseasons. If his career ended today, he'd be a question mark.

You can't say that about the current locks: O'Neal, Duncan, Bryant, Garnett, Iverson, Kidd ... and Payton, who is still officially in the league and is absolutely in. They're in even if they never play another minute. As of right now, McGrady and Carter have amassed better credentials than Nowitzki or arguably even Nash. Nash is a tough call, since he's been dominant for only three years, and typically the HoF wants to see more longevity than that. If he can play at close to this level for two more years, he should be fine.

There are lots of other veterans who have a chance, including even the likes of Mourning, who could get some feel-good votes.

Of the younger crowd, of course there are many who are likely to make it, but since this list is so short, we have to stick with the sure things. Thus:

O'Neal
Duncan
Bryant
Garnett
Iverson
Kidd
Payton
Carter
McGrady
Nash

I'm fine with everybody but Carter on that list. In my mind, HOF guys don't quit on their teams.

 

[arwillan]

I'm fine with everybody but Carter on that list. In my mind, HOF guys don't quit on their teams.

i wasnt a fan of carter on that list nor tracy mcgrady. tmac has never even lead his team out of the first round, reguardless of how good he is. his team this year was pretty good too. i did forget gary payton, though. interesting idea

 

[elindholm]

I'm fine with everybody but Carter on that list. In my mind, HOF guys don't quit on their teams.

But you aren't a voter. Are we supposed to make our own personal lists, or guess what will happen?

 

[azirish]

But you aren't a voter. Are we supposed to make our own personal lists, or guess what will happen?

I'm not? Rats.

Actually, I've seen voters influenced by a lot less. On the other hand, it is much easier to get votes if you live in the NY area so you may be right.

 

[elindholm]

Actually, I've seen voters influenced by a lot less.

Trust me, Carter is in, like it or not.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Trust me, Carter is in, like it or not.

you think Carter's a lock and T-Mac is in while Dirk is still on the bubble? I find that very hard to believe considering that Dirk's led two teams to the Conference Finals, one team to the NBA Finals, has been on a Mavericks team that is consistently in the playoffs, is a consistent ALL-NBA First, Second or Third teamer and has an NBA MVP as opposed to Vince who's never led any team past the second round, has never been close to an NBA MVP award, quit on one team and has been a playoff no-show the last two years. And that's not even going into T-Mac, who's never been out of the first round, quit on a team and has had an injury plagued career.

I mean you talk about coming up short the last two years as part of the knock against Nowitzki, but yet you don't see how the same thing applies to Vince and T-Mac who haven't come close to Dirk's accomplishments during the regular season or the post-season. That just doesn't make sense to me.

 

[dodie53]

my list:

KG
nash
kobe
shaq
payton
kidd
duncan
iverson
LBJ
ray allen

 

[Cheesebeef]

Dirk's accolades:

3 1st Team All-NBA
2 2nd Team All-NBA
2 3rd Team All-NBA

6 All-Star games

1 MVP

Leader (or co-leader once) of 3 60 win teams

2 WCF Final Appearances
1 Finals Appearance

Vince Carter's accolades:

1 2nd Team All-NBA
1 3rd Team All-NBA
(both of these were at least 7 years ago)

8 All-Star Games

T-Mac:

2 1st Team All-NBA
2 2nd Team All-NBA
3 3rd Team All-NBA

never gotten out of the first round, oversaw three completely blown series, blowing a 3-1 lead, blowing a 2-0 lead coming home and this year, blowing another 2-0 lead with homecourt advantage.

I have no idea how anyone could possibly think that Dirk isn't a lock over these two guys. Yeah, his last two bad playoff series haven't been great, but the guy has accomplished so much more over the course of his career than either T-Mac or Carter it isn't even funny.

 

[arwillan]

But you aren't a voter. Are we supposed to make our own personal lists, or guess what will happen?

i intended this thread to generate some good discussion about the HoF. make your own list, discuss other people's, do as you please

 

[arwillan]

my list:

KG
nash
kobe
shaq
payton
kidd
duncan
iverson
LBJ
ray allen

lebron is my 2nd favorite non suns player of all time (behind reggie miller), but i dont feel he is there yet. he gave us one incredible play off performance, which is excellent but he made it to the finals in the eastern conference, and couldnt manage to win a game. i love the kid, but not yet

 

[elindholm]

Okay, I'll concede the point. Nowitzki over Carter and McGrady. Between Carter and McGrady is too close to call.