Hall of Fame Discussion

[arwillan]

I don't understand why everyone keeps bringing up Billups. He's been overrated for the last few years IMO. He certainly hasn't been good enough to warrant hall of fame consideration. Shawn Marion deserves it before he does.

well he's been an all star a few times, has made a few all nba teams, is known for some pretty good clutch shooting ability. he lead a team to a ring, he is a great defender, and has always been up there as best pg's in the league. to me it seems he's just "pretty good" in every aspect of the game, though he isnt that superstar HoF'er at least IMO

 

[Black Jesus]

i guess billups doesnt deserve it in looking at his accolades.

2004 NBA Finals MVP
2004-05 NBA All-Defense Second Team
2005-06 NBA All-Defense Second Team
2005-06 All-NBA Second Team
2006, 2007 All-Star
2006-07 All-NBA Third Team

No first teams, No MVP and only 2 allstar.

 

[azirish]

i guess billups doesnt deserve it in looking at his accolades.

2004 NBA Finals MVP
2004-05 NBA All-Defense Second Team
2005-06 NBA All-Defense Second Team
2005-06 All-NBA Second Team
2006, 2007 All-Star
2006-07 All-NBA Third Team

No first teams, No MVP and only 2 allstar.

Billips seems likely to get hurt by the HOF preference for offensive players. He's a career 14.5 ppg (much better lately but 17.0 is not spectacular) 41.2% shooter (only once over 44%), with a career 5.3 assists per game (better the last two years at 8.6 apg and 7.2 apg).

These are quality numbers, but it is his defense that gets him ranked in the top tier.

 

[arwillan]

Billips seems likely to get hurt by the HOF preference for offensive players. He's a career 14.5 ppg (much better lately but 17.0 is not spectacular) 41.2% shooter (only once over 44%), with a career 5.3 assists per game (better the last two years at 8.6 apg and 7.2 apg).

These are quality numbers, but it is his defense that gets him ranked in the top tier.

i think you're right, even though i wish you werent. it's too bad that defensive players dont get the superstardom or popularity that the offensive players do. you cant put it on the stats when a guy plays good defense on the offensive player and makes him give up the ball (which is presumably the goal). chauncey is a prime example of this. i would like to see him in the HoF, but i cant say i believe he will make it there :/.


i think the fact that he made finals mvp is something to give him a boost for the HoF. that year they won was against that stacked lakers team, a big upset. though he hasnt been a regular season mvp, you have to give him some cudos for making it to be the finals mvp

 

[mathbzh]

i think you're right, even though i wish you werent. it's too bad that defensive players dont get the superstardom or popularity that the offensive players do. you cant put it on the stats when a guy plays good defense on the offensive player and makes him give up the ball (which is presumably the goal). chauncey is a prime example of this. i would like to see him in the HoF, but i cant say i believe he will make it there :/.


i think the fact that he made finals mvp is something to give him a boost for the HoF. that year they won was against that stacked lakers team, a big upset. though he hasnt been a regular season mvp, you have to give him some cudos for making it to be the finals mvp

As a french I am not very familiar with the HOF. I don't know who is it and who is not. I believed the 2004-2005 pistons would be represented in the HOF and that without an obvious choice the place would be for billups.
I am probably wrong.

 

[chickenhead]

Horry didn't help Hakeem, Shaq, Kobe, and Duncan get rings as much as they've helped him get rings: I don't think they belong on the same shortlist. Now, he made his shots--and big ones--so you don't take that away from him, but you don't overrate them either, IMO.

I'd compare Horry to Claude Lemieux, who has an equally legendary playoff career. Granted, he's also go Bruce Bowne's reputation, but the hockey hall of fame lets everyone in, and he probably won't make it. These guys probably don't deserve the hall--they deserve all the other hardware they helped win.

 

[nowagimp]

he is a great defender, and has always been up there as best pg's in the league. IMO

Being among the best PG's in a era where most PG's are actually shooting guards is not that impressive. Billups doesnt create, the pistons screens create the shots. Also with prince, ben wallace, rasheed behind him, he can afford to play his guy tight and not worry if he gets beat off the dribble(and he does, all the time). Prince, and Ben Wallace are great defenders, I'd rate billups as just very good. Jason Kidd has been, through his career a great defender at the point, way better than Billups. Not that I dont like Billups, but the pistons team defense was the key, not the individuals except perhaps wallace and prince. I'd rate Marion a better defender than Billups for sure. Problem is that Marion is left out to dry on help defense all the time or asked to guard an impossible matchup, while Billups has prince (who is just outstanding on help), rasheed, and until this past year, Ben wallace to cover for him. And a 41.2% career shooter is just not very good. Stockton, Nash, hell even mo cheeks were like 48%+ shooters and created better than billups. Isiah thomas was 45% FG's on a defensive minded team. At best, Billups is borderline HOF material.

 

[azirish]

I agree that defense is hard to measure because it is such a team concept.

I don't have a real feel for how many deserving playes are not in the basketball HOF.

I cannot support this, but it always seemed like the Baseball Hall of Fame was the hardest to get into. Whne I looked at the basketball list, no one immediately came to mind as being overlooked.

 

[elindholm]

Well, Kevin Johnson's not in, so there's a yardstick for scoring PGs.

 

[nowagimp]

Well, Kevin Johnson's not in, so there's a yardstick for scoring PGs.

Good point, Kevin had great ability to create off the dribble, and was a much better shooter than Billups ever was. If Kevin isnt in, Billups certainly doesnt deserve it. If KJ was in the NBA today, he'd only have Nash and perhaps Kidd ahead of him at PG. And I'd take KJ over Kidd, on my team for the difference in shooting ability.

 

[JCSunsfan]

10 is too many.

 

[azirish]

10 is too many.

I don't think ten is at all unreasonable because we are looking at guys whose careers go back a decade or more. It is different than saying he's still at that level.

Take Mutomob. Hoopshype calls him one of the greatest defensive players of all time. Eight time All Star, Four time defensive player of the year, 3 times on 1st team all defensive team, 2 times on all defense second team, led league in rebounding three times, 2nd team All NBA in 2000-01 and 3rd team All NBA in 2001-02.

But Mutombo is long past being a superstar and was never much on the offensive end even at his peak. But IMHO he's a legitimate HOF candidate.

 

[Errntknght]

I think there's a much better case for Mutombo getting into the HOF than there is for Horry. IMO, if Robert makes it, the whole HOF is cheapened.

 

[arwillan]

I think there's a much better case for Mutombo getting into the HOF than there is for Horry. IMO, if Robert makes it, the whole HOF is cheapened.

mutumbo maybe could make it too. all we can do is speculate. if dikembe makes it, horry should make it IMO

 

[Bufalay]

mutumbo maybe could make it too. all we can do is speculate. if dikembe makes it, horry should make it IMO

How can you even compare Horry to Mutombo? He's one of the best defensive players ever. Horry has hit about 10 big shots in his life, played on 3 amazing teams. He was replaceable on all of those teams. Find a guy who can hit a wide open 3.

Seriously imagine if this guy actually played on a team where they demanded more from him than to just knock down open shots. Like to be a leader or something. This is just speculation, but I think that he would've done a poor job...WAIT, he played on the Suns. He was traded for the best player the Suns ever had and was able to deliver a whopping 7 ppg, melted down and threw a towel in his coaches face and was later traded. If Horry makes the hall of fame then so do about 100 other guys who are in the NBA today.

 

[BC867]

I think there's a much better case for Mutombo getting into the HOF than there is for Horry. IMO, if Robert makes it, the whole HOF is cheapened.

Absolutely. And not just because of Whorey's destructive behavior on, or near, the court.

Robert Horry and Basketball Hall of Fame just don't go together. Whether he threw a towel at his Coach or not. Speaking of that, Danny Ainge, just as Dennis Johnson, had a knack of influencing his team to be contenders.

Horry did not.

 

[dodie53]

a 4 time defensive player should make it to the hall of fame

 

[arwillan]

a 4 time defensive player should make it to the hall of fame

but not a 7-time nba champion who is one of, if not THE, best clutch shooter of all time? *shrug*

 

[azirish]

but not a 7-time nba champion who is one of, if not THE, best clutch shooter of all time? *shrug*

Perhaps Pippen should be added before we get mister "why bother with the regular season" Horry.

 

[arwillan]

Perhaps Pippen should be added before we get mister "why bother with the regular season" Horry.

you mean add pippen to the list for the hof? sure, by all means. but we're only talking people in the league at this moment, and iirc he isnt. he does deserve it though

 

[azirish]

you mean add pippen to the list for the hof? sure, by all means. but we're only talking people in the league at this moment, and iirc he isnt. he does deserve it though

Kerr mentioned Pippen in his interview with Simmons as not being in the Hall of Fame.

I only bring Pippen up to say that I just cannot see any way that Horry can get in based strictly on number of rings, when so far Pippen has not made it. IMHO, number of rings is a nice but only supplimental criteria. Horry's overall play on a game in, game out, basis is just not that impressive.

 

[SO91]

Pippen has not made it because he's not elegible, not because he doesn't deserve to get in.

 

[azirish]

Pippen has not made it because he's not elegible, not because he doesn't deserve to get in.

I guess it seemed longer. Maybe you lose elibility if you threaten to return to active play.

 

[SO91]

His last season was 03-04, so he'll be waiting for a couple more years.

 

[Ollie]

Pippen is not eligible until 2010.