Hardaway activated

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by hcsilla

Although Mohammed has a terrible year he is still better than any of our backup C's.

How do you figure? Seriously.

 

[hcsilla]

Originally posted by Chaplin
How do you figure? Seriously.

I think that Mohammed is a better post-up player than Voskuhl and he is more athletic than Williams.

Plus I don't really base on his this year's performance because he had some serious injuries this year.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by hcsilla
I think that Mohammed is a better post-up player than Voskuhl and he is more athletic than Williams.

Plus I don't really base on his this year's performance because he had some serious injuries this year.

But doesn't this year count? I mean, this is the first year the Voskuhl has gotten some steady minutes. If you discount some years and count others, doesn't that contaminate your entire basis for the arguement?

I understand you like Nazr, and he may be more athletic than Scott Williams, but Williams is a more reliable player--this year proves it. You can't ignore the injury issue.

 

[JCSunsfan]

What we've seen of Jake this year has only been with a bad back. I would really like to see where he will be when healthy.

I believe that Jake and Amare on the floor together will be quite effective.

Also, I think you have to figure Googs into the center rotation. I know he's a forward, but so are about half the centers in the league.

Our center rotation is not that good at the moment, but it has the potential to surprise, and to frustrate as the seasons winds down.

BTW, does anyone know any history on how players' careers go after disc surgury? Just wondered what the long term prognosis for Jake is.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Wasn't this thread about

Penny??

 

[capologist]

Originally posted by Chaplin
Williams is a more reliable player--this year proves it. You can't ignore the injury issue.

Uh, Chap, you may want to check out Scott's career stats. This is his healthiest season in almost a decade.

 

[hcsilla]

Originally posted by Chaplin
But doesn't this year count? I mean, this is the first year the Voskuhl has gotten some steady minutes.

Actually Voskuhl got more PT last year.
His PT is a bit reduced this year and he is contributing less if you are basing on stats.

If you discount some years and count others, doesn't that contaminate your entire basis for the arguement?

Yes, it does but we are talking about a young player who improved when he got PT.
So I think that we can rightly assume that this year was an exception because of his injuries and not the two last years.

 

[elindholm]

Mohammed was already worse in 01-02 than he was in 00-01. Now he should be recovered from injury, but he can't earn decent minutes on an ATL club that could clearly use him.

I agree with Chaplin that Mohammed was a "one-hit wonder." I'd rather have Voskuhl. However, hcsilla is also correct that Voskuhl has been worse this year than last year.

 

[Chaplin]

My bad. I should have checked Jake's statistics.

 

[hcsilla]

Originally posted by elindholm

I agree with Chaplin that Mohammed was a "one-hit wonder." I'd rather have Voskuhl.

I just don't get it.

Mohammed has an entire and a half decent season as a starting C.
After he got injured and has a still acceptable season as a backup C.

Why are the 1st two seasons worth less than the last one?

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by hcsilla
I just don't get it.

Mohammed has an entire and a half decent season as a starting C.
After he got injured and has a still acceptable season as a backup C.

Why are the 1st two seasons worth less than the last one?

Because of current events.

Should we consider Iraq and ally because 15 years ago he was? Is Penny worth the money because 4 years he was?

If I have a choice between an athlete that is looking decent and potentially having some nice statistics, and an athlete that looked great 2 years ago and looks horrendous now, who would I pick? That's a no-brainer to me.

 

[hcsilla]

Originally posted by Chaplin
If I have a choice between an athlete that is looking decent and potentially having some nice statistics, and an athlete that looked great 2 years ago and looks horrendous now, who would I pick?

What do you base on that Mohammed looks horrendous while Voskuhl is looking decent?

They are putting up very similar nimbers right now the difference between them is only that Mohammed already proved (what Voskuhl still didn't) that he can be a decent starting C for a whole season.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by hcsilla


They are putting up very similar nimbers right now the difference between them is only that Mohammed already proved (what Voskuhl still didn't) that he can be a decent starting C for a whole season.

Ok, then back to the original question. If right now Voskuhl and Mohammed cancel each other out, is Ratliff better than the Big Jake/Scott Williams combo? I don't think he is--which makes our rotation slightly better than Atlanta's, right?

 

[hcsilla]

Originally posted by Chaplin
Ok, then back to the original question. If right now Voskuhl and Mohammed cancel each other out, is Ratliff better than the Big Jake/Scott Williams combo?

Of course he is because Tsakalidis played only 23 games this year and he contributed much less than Ratliff, right?

 

[slinslin]

I would do this deal if

1. The pick is top18 protected and Denver would only get it if Camby plays more than 120 regular season games for the Suns in the next 2 seasons. They can also have Clevelands future 1st and 2nd round pick instead.

 

[hcsilla]

Originally posted by slinslin
I would do this deal if

1. The pick is top18 protected and Denver would only get it if Camby plays more than 120 regular season games for the Suns in the next 2 seasons. They can also have Clevelands future 1st and 2nd round pick instead.

This is almost my original proposal.

 

[slinslin]

Oh sorry, I just noticed that this is the wrong thread.

 

[elindholm]

Mohammed has an entire and a half decent season as a starting C.

Sorry, I just don't agree with this. His best season was 01-02. Here are his stats:

82 games played, 73 starts

Per game:
26.4 minutes
9.7 points on .461 shooting (.617 from the line)
7.9 rebounds, 0.7 blocks
0.4 assists, 1.4 turnovers, 3.1 fouls

Oh, and his team was awful.

I don't really see how those numbers are very good. He had one and a half seasons where he showed some promise, but now it looks like that was a false alarm. We're just not talking about a starting caliber player here. And now, he barely plays, even when he's healthy, which he often isn't.

 

[zett]

Originally posted by elindholm
Mohammed has an entire and a half decent season as a starting C.

Sorry, I just don't agree with this. His best season was 01-02. Here are his stats:

82 games played, 73 starts

Per game:
26.4 minutes
9.7 points on .461 shooting (.617 from the line)
7.9 rebounds, 0.7 blocks
0.4 assists, 1.4 turnovers, 3.1 fouls

Oh, and his team was awful.

I don't really see how those numbers are very good. He had one and a half seasons where he showed some promise, but now it looks like that was a false alarm. We're just not talking about a starting caliber player here. And now, he barely plays, even when he's healthy, which he often isn't.

Do we have a center with better stats then that?

 

[SirStefan32]

Do we have a center who play 26 minutes a game?

Perhaps if our coach-wannabe would let Jakes or Scott play 25- 30 minutes a game, they'd have better stats. You can't get good stats if your coach plays you for 15 minutes a game. I think that both Jakes and Williams could have similar stats if given playing time. (Williams would probably have to be hospitalized after 3 straight games with 30 minutes played, but that's beside the point.)

 

[hcsilla]

Originally posted by elindholm
Mohammed has an entire and a half decent season as a starting C.

Sorry, I just don't agree with this. His best season was 01-02. Here are his stats:

82 games played, 73 starts

Per game:
26.4 minutes
9.7 points on .461 shooting (.617 from the line)
7.9 rebounds, 0.7 blocks
0.4 assists, 1.4 turnovers, 3.1 fouls

Oh, and his team was awful.

I don't really see how those numbers are very good.

Neither me.But who said that those numbers are very good?

He had one and a half seasons where he showed some promise, but now it looks like that was a false alarm. We're just not talking about a starting caliber player here.

Aren't we?

Those numbers are better than the numbers of starting C's of the next teams:

BOS,CHI,DAL,GSW,MIL,NJN,ORL,PHI,PHO,POR,SEA,UTA,WAS.

13 teams.
So I think that we are talking a starting caliber C here who has a bad year.

 

[elindholm]

Okay, hcsilla, you win. Keep on thinking that Mohammed is as good as you like. If he ever looks like a real player again, remind me, and I'll admit that I was wrong.

 

[Chaplin]

What's funny is that you proved that Mohammed isn't that great, Eric, and given the same amount of minutes, both Williams and even Voskuhl could have comparable statistics.

And yet, hcsilla names 12 teams, other than the Suns with worse centers.

What I don't understand is what he's trying to prove. He's trying to show that Mohammed/Ratliff is better than Big/Little Jake/Scott Williams. And so far it doesn't hold water--statistically or otherwise.

 

[slinslin]

Chaplin why don't you come up with 48 minute per games stats?

The fact is that Scott Williams can't play more minutes. He is only good enough for a 2-4 game streak every 20 games and Jake Voshkul usually picks up fouls too quickly to stay on the court longer.

And Jake Voshkul will never be a 10 ppg 8rpg player, because if he would teams would start to cover him defensively instead of barely taking notice.

If you can't admit that Ratliff/Mohammed is a better center rotation than Big Jake/Jake.

Mohammed has been injury plagued this season. If you hold that against him you have to admit that this one season he had was better than everything Big Jake has ever done.

Ratliff alone is still averaging 8ppg 7rpg 3bpg in 30mpg. Even playing limited minutes he leads the NBA in blocks.


Jake Voshkul is averaging 3ppg 3rpg and Scott Williams isn't any better at 4.5ppg 3rpg and 42%FG.

And those are basically numbers they put up with defense cheating on them usually.

A better indicator for example is that those centers might not average much better numbers but when they play against us they produce more than they normally do and outplay our centers.

Rasho Nesterovic was absolutely taking the Suns centers to school when we played the wolves.

And Theo Ratliff is averaging 10ppg 11rpg 3bpg 1.5spg against the Suns.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by slinslin
Chaplin why don't you come up with 48 minute per games stats?

I thought about that, but if you know my history, you'd know that I think 48-minutes stats are basically worthless. But then again, it might be a good measuring stick as well.

Why don't we just leave it at you don't like our center rotation, I think it's not as bad as you think (but nowhere near "great").