Harpring agrees to stay with Utah Jazz

[ShuHanGuanYu]

He was a big reason?!?!? Let's not get carried away sparky. He didn't play enough minutes to be a big reason. He was decent off the bench but also dissappeared in a ton of games this season both offensively and defensively. Not to mention the playoffs.

So I think Tim Thomas was a better all around offensive player. I think that James Jones was a better defender. However, that wasn't saying much. James is no Raja, Marion or Kurt Thomas.

He was a big part of it off the bench. He was playing around 25 minutes per game at that point in the season. How do you manage do believe that one cannot make an impact with 25 minutes per game? While you were laying around trying to think of clever things to say over the internet like "sparky", I was watching the Phoenix Suns play basketball. His defense was garnering praise by D'Antoni in the commentators at that time too.

Saying that he was a big part of it doesn't put him on the same level as Raja, Marion, or Kurt. Those are your words, not mine.

James is a good team defender, but not a great individual defender. There are different aspects of defense that players can be measured on.

 

[az1965]

Secondly, KT will definately go down at somepoint and maybe someone else as well, I am sure Amare wil have his nights when he is sore. As it stands we have Eric Whateverski and he sucks.

Its amazing how ridiculous this comment is... Let's have 10 all stars since it is possible most of our starters get some sort of injury...

 

[cly2tw]

With Amare due back, TT is a luxary. Joe is right about our more pressing need at backup PG/SG.

Alternatively, if we do move Marion, I'd expect more players in return that'd make it even less of a need to keep TT.

Also, I'm confident that JJ will be better. In playoffs, he performed very well besides his shooting. Yet, shooting can come back with more playing time, which he should be getting now TT is gone.

 

[George O'Brien]

Its amazing how ridiculous this comment is... Let's have 10 all stars since it is possible most of our starters get some sort of injury...

As long as they play at discounted prices...

It would be nice to have someone to blame for losing key players to injuries or to say it was the Suns fault they didn't have enough depth to cover the loss of three starters.

Yes the Mavs have more depth than the Suns and a huge payroll. But the funny part is that this year they won't be much deeper than the Suns:

Dirk
Josh Howard
Dampier
Diop
Stackhouse
Harris
Daniels
Terry if they re-sign him

That's eight. Take any two guys from their lineup and this teams doesn't break 500.

 

[Covert Rain]

He was a big part of it off the bench. He was playing around 25 minutes per game at that point in the season. How do you manage do believe that one cannot make an impact with 25 minutes per game? While you were laying around trying to think of clever things to say over the internet like "sparky", I was watching the Phoenix Suns play basketball. His defense was garnering praise by D'Antoni in the commentators at that time too.

Saying that he was a big part of it doesn't put him on the same level as Raja, Marion, or Kurt. Those are your words, not mine.

James is a good team defender, but not a great individual defender. There are different aspects of defense that players can be measured on.

Then you were watching a different player. James Jones on COUNTLESS instances would pick up ticky tack fouls and get pulled from the game. His time was spotty at best. He couldn't stay on the court for any consistant time.

Many of the Suns players seem to play TEAM defense at times. However, just like most of the team it wasn't consistant. Now factor in that he was a non factor in the playoffs and I would say that sums him up pretty well.

Does that mean he won't mature? No I wouldn't say that. However, he was not a big part as you would suggest.

 

[ShuHanGuanYu]

Then you were watching a different player. James Jones on COUNTLESS instances would pick up ticky tack fouls and get pulled from the game. His time was spotty at best. He couldn't stay on the court for any consistant time.

Many of the Suns players seem to play TEAM defense at times. However, just like most of the team it wasn't consistant. Now factor in that he was a non factor in the playoffs and I would say that sums him up pretty well.

Does that mean he won't mature? No I wouldn't say that. However, he was not a big part as you would suggest.

Actually, those instances wouldn't be considered "COUNTLESS". In fact, we have statistics for counting these things. The claim that he couldn't stay on the court for any consistant time is just a load of crap. Kurt Thomas was also in foul trouble a lot, but that doesn't mean he wasn't a big force during that defensive run. Diaw often struggled with foul trouble, but that doesn't mean his defense shouldn't be praised during that run. Jones averaged less than 2 fouls per game in 24 minutes, and it is mathematically impossible for your claim to be true (that foul trouble kept him out consitently). At least he gets his fouls by being aggressive. Tim Thomas averaged 3 fouls in even less time, and his are because he's usually lazy on defense. He averaged 4.5 in the playoffs!

As far as offense, the guy struggles with confidence issues. Sound familar? Joe Johnson. It took Joe a couple years to gain confidence, and it could be the same for James. Anyone will tell you he's a good shooter, he just needs his confidence to catch up.

No, their defense was consistent. Their defense held strong until Kurt Thomas got injured. When you have no interior defender, no matter how hard you try you are going to give up points. At that point, they gave up and just tried to outscore people. James Jones was still a big part of the run where there Suns were a defensive force. And I believe he will be strong again next year.

 

[ShuHanGuanYu]

As long as they play at discounted prices...

It would be nice to have someone to blame for losing key players to injuries or to say it was the Suns fault they didn't have enough depth to cover the loss of three starters.

Yes the Mavs have more depth than the Suns and a huge payroll. But the funny part is that this year they won't be much deeper than the Suns:

Dirk
Josh Howard
Dampier
Diop
Stackhouse
Harris
Daniels
Terry if they re-sign him

That's eight. Take any two guys from their lineup and this teams doesn't break 500.

Great point. Suns fans like to dream that we are made of money. Even though we are said to be the fifth biggest city in the USA, we are not a big basketball market. This team will always have to be financially responsible. That means you don't pay a guy $6 million dollars as an insurance policy just in case something happens to a star player. That means you don't pay a guy $6 million dollars who is one-dimensional and isn't going to play a whole lot. If you want, move to Dallas or New York so you can grovel in your money trees.

Suns in '07!

 

[Joe Mama]

Actually, those instances wouldn't be considered "COUNTLESS". In fact, we have statistics for counting these things. The claim that he couldn't stay on the court for any consistant time is just a load of crap. Kurt Thomas was also in foul trouble a lot, but that doesn't mean he wasn't a big force during that defensive run. Diaw often struggled with foul trouble, but that doesn't mean his defense shouldn't be praised during that run. Jones averaged less than 2 fouls per game in 24 minutes, and it is mathematically impossible for your claim to be true (that foul trouble kept him out consitently). At least he gets his fouls by being aggressive. Tim Thomas averaged 3 fouls in even less time, and his are because he's usually lazy on defense. He averaged 4.5 in the playoffs!

I've got to believe that they count fouls per game by taking the total number of fouls on the season and dividing by the number of games in which the player actually played. James Jones' minutes were pretty inconsistent, so it's entirely possible that he played 5 minutes in one game and 20-25 minutes in the next. If you can accept that then what SteelDog is claiming COULD be true despite the statistics that seem to indicate that James Jones was not in foul trouble much.

That said, most of the Phoenix Suns big men got into foul trouble on a regular basis. This is because they were guarding players much bigger than them most of the time. Tim Thomas picked up so many fouls in the playoffs because he was frequently guarding guys like Elton brand and Dirk Nowitzki.

Joe

 

[ArizonaSportsFan]

Harpring got crazy money from the Jazz for being as injury prone as he has been. He got more than TT got from the Clipps. This offseason is crazy with the money being spent on mediocre players. Perhaps the Suns are wisest just to stay out of it and hope to find a ten minute player or two by combing through the leftovers.

 

[Tank]

Yes the Mavs have more depth than the Suns and a huge payroll. But the funny part is that this year they won't be much deeper than the Suns:

Dirk
Josh Howard
Dampier
Diop
Stackhouse
Harris
Daniels
Terry if they re-sign him

That's eight. Take any two guys from their lineup and this teams doesn't break 500.

Take out Diop and Daniels and that is still easily a .500 team...

 

[Joe Mama]

Take out Diop and Daniels and that is still easily a .500 team...

Hell, you could take three players from that team and replace them with bench fodder, and that would be better then a .500 team. Let's not go overboard with the importance of a good bench. There's something to be said for a great starting 5 as well.

Joe

 

[ShuHanGuanYu]

I've got to believe that they count fouls per game by taking the total number of fouls on the season and dividing by the number of games in which the player actually played. James Jones' minutes were pretty inconsistent, so it's entirely possible that he played 5 minutes in one game and 20-25 minutes in the next. If you can accept that then what SteelDog is claiming COULD be true despite the statistics that seem to indicate that James Jones was not in foul trouble much.

That said, most of the Phoenix Suns big men got into foul trouble on a regular basis. This is because they were guarding players much bigger than them most of the time. Tim Thomas picked up so many fouls in the playoffs because he was frequently guarding guys like Elton brand and Dirk Nowitzki.

Joe

No, it's not possible. It's math. If James Jones plays 5 minutes one night and 25 minutes the next, the average is 13.5...not 25. He averaged 25. Mathmatically impossible. Besides, there's not a game the entire season where he only played 5 minutes (other than when he was injured). Logic has his argument defeated before I can even touch it. Thank you, logic, for doing all the work for me.

Yes, they divide total fouls by games played? What does that have to do with anything? I don't see the point you're trying to make here.

Tim Thomas picked up silly fouls by using his hands and not his feet. And he did it over and over again. Diaw guarded those tough players to, and he averaged 3 fouls in 40 minutes. Same with Marion, who averaged 3 fouls in 42 minutes. Tim Thomas averaged 4.5 in only 32 minutes because he sucks at playing defense and tries to use his hands without moving his body. In other words, lazy.

 

[Joe Mama]

No, it's not possible. It's math. If James Jones plays 5 minutes one night and 25 minutes the next, the average is 13.5...not 25. He averaged 25. Mathmatically impossible. Besides, there's not a game the entire season where he only played 5 minutes (other than when he was injured). Logic has his argument defeated before I can even touch it. Thank you, logic, for doing all the work for me.

Yes, they divide total fouls by games played? What does that have to do with anything? I don't see the point you're trying to make here.

Tim Thomas picked up silly fouls by using his hands and not his feet. And he did it over and over again. Diaw guarded those tough players to, and he averaged 3 fouls in 40 minutes. Same with Marion, who averaged 3 fouls in 42 minutes. Tim Thomas averaged 4.5 in only 32 minutes because he sucks at playing defense and tries to use his hands without moving his body. In other words, lazy.

Boy, I thought James Jones' minutes were a lot less consistent than I see they actually were as I will attack his game log. However mathematically, my argument makes perfect sense for a player whose minutes are less consistent.

I did not realize that he averaged almost 24 minutes per game last year. I would have guessed that it was less. You'll notice that I did not bring minutes per game into my argument, and I obviously didn't catch that in your original post. sorry.

Btw, you do realize that it's not "mathematically impossible" for someone to get into foul trouble a lot of the time despite averaging 2.0 fouls per game? It's unlikely, but it's not mathematically impossible. That player could foul out of every third game as long as he didn't pick up any fouls in the other 2.

Joe

 

[Errntknght]

George, I believe you left a player off the Dallas roster. I read a few days ago that they resigned DJ Mbenga... not that he's likely to be a significant factor for them.

 

[Errntknght]

I can't say I agree with either side in the James Jones argument. His team defense is good but his 1-1 defense isn't, particularly if he's matched up against a physically strong player so overall, IMO, he wasn't a major plus on defense. His rebounding improved over the course of the year but it didn't ever reach to the level I would call good - he started at a plateau that I would label awful and, being generous, it reached mediocre.

As far as being in foul trouble, I have a vague recollection of that happening once sometime in mid-season. I'd go so far as to bet even money that he never fouled out of a game - for a nominal amount of money. I think the number of disqualifications is a stat that is kept if anyone is interested enough to run it down. His playing time was spotty but my impression was that D'A was sitting him because he kept missing his shots - I can't say that I was focussed on JR's play enough to make a strong statement about that.

 

[George O'Brien]

I'm always intrigued by player comparisions, but this once is pretty interesting:

Quentin Richardson
New York Knicks
Position: G-F
Height: 6-6 Weight: 230
College : DePaul
Player file | Team stats

2005-06 Statistics
PPG 8.2
RPG 4.2
APG 1.6
SPG .71
BPG .11
FG% .355
FT% .670
3P% .340
MPG 26.2

James Jones
Phoenix Suns
Position: F
Height: 6-8 Weight: 220
College : Miami (Fla.)
Player file | Team stats

2005-06 Statistics
PPG 9.3
RPG 3.4
APG .8
SPG .51
BPG .65
FG% .418
FT% .851
3P% .386
MPG 23.6

I would have thought Q to have better stats than that, but other than a slight advantage in rebounding Jones had a better year and Q was not noted for his defense.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Jones also played for the Suns, and Q for the Knicks. It makes a bit of a difference.

 

[George O'Brien]

Jones also played for the Suns, and Q for the Knicks. It makes a bit of a difference.

Some, but not much. Q only shot 38.9% from the field and 35.8% for three in 2004-05. He got a lot more points with the Suns, but he was very irratic.

In 2004-05 James shot 39.8% for three.

 

[ShuHanGuanYu]

Boy, I thought James Jones' minutes were a lot less consistent than I see they actually were as I will attack his game log. However mathematically, my argument makes perfect sense for a player whose minutes are less consistent.

But your argument here in the case of James Jones does not. And alas, we are discussing JJ.

Btw, you do realize that it's not "mathematically impossible" for someone to get into foul trouble a lot of the time despite averaging 2.0 fouls per game? It's unlikely, but it's not mathematically impossible. That player could foul out of every third game as long as he didn't pick up any fouls in the other 2.

What was mathmatically impossible was not to average two fouls per game. What I said was mathematically impossible was to play only five minutes one night and then 20-25 minutes the next...and then have those somehow average into 25 minutes per game. That, my friend, is mathematically impossible. Either way, I think you got my point. Argue my basketball points, not my mathematical skills.

 

[Joe Mama]

But your argument here in the case of James Jones does not. And alas, we are discussing JJ.

Yes, and if you would have included the following from my previous post you would have seen that I realized that and apologized for the mistake.

I did not realize that he averaged almost 24 minutes per game last year. I would have guessed that it was less. You'll notice that I did not bring minutes per game into my argument, and I obviously didn't catch that in your original post. sorry.
Joe

again, I'm sorry I did not read your original post more thoroughly.

What was mathmatically impossible was not to average two fouls per game. What I said was mathematically impossible was to play only five minutes one night and then 20-25 minutes the next...and then have those somehow average into 25 minutes per game. That, my friend, is mathematically impossible. Either way, I think you got my point. Argue my basketball points, not my mathematical skills.

I agree that is mathematically impossible, but here is the point I was arguing from your original post.

Jones averaged less than 2 fouls per game in 24 minutes, and it is mathematically impossible for your claim to be true (that foul trouble kept him out consitently).

Game 1: 25 minutes, 0 fouls
Game 2: 35 minutes, 6 fouls
Game 3: 15 minutes, 0 fouls
Game 4: 25 minutes, 0 fouls
Game 5: 35 minutes, 6 fouls
Game 6: 15 minutes, 0 fouls

Average: 25 minutes per game, 2 fouls per game

Again, it's definitely unlikely, but it's not mathematically impossible. It really depends on your definition of "constantly", but in my last post I said it was not mathematically impossible for someone to foul out of every third game and average just 2 fouls game. I'm not trying to win an argument here. I'm just trying to show on knot is mathematically inept as I've come across so far in this thread.

Joe

 

[ShuHanGuanYu]

Game 1: 25 minutes, 0 fouls
Game 2: 35 minutes, 6 fouls
Game 3: 15 minutes, 0 fouls
Game 4: 25 minutes, 0 fouls
Game 5: 35 minutes, 6 fouls
Game 6: 15 minutes, 0 fouls

Average: 25 minutes per game, 2 fouls per game

Again, it's definitely unlikely, but it's not mathematically impossible. It really depends on your definition of "constantly", but in my last post I said it was not mathematically impossible for someone to foul out of every third game and average just 2 fouls game. I'm not trying to win an argument here. I'm just trying to show on knot is mathematically inept as I've come across so far in this thread.

Joe

I hardly think completely fouling out every third game would constitute consistency from game to game.

The claim I was denying is that James Jones constantly picked up ticky tack fouls that kept him out of the game. The fouls in your case don't keep him out of the game. For some reason you limited his minutes to 15 and 25 in games when he didn't foul out, which goes exactly opposite from the point the other guy was trying to make. Your post illustrates part of my point better than it did his, and fouls didn't limit his time.

Too many posts on one subject. Hehehe, and no, you did not appear to be mathematically inept.

Suns in '07!

 

[nowagimp]

Tim Thomas picked up silly fouls by using his hands and not his feet. And he did it over and over again. Diaw guarded those tough players to, and he averaged 3 fouls in 40 minutes. Same with Marion, who averaged 3 fouls in 42 minutes. Tim Thomas averaged 4.5 in only 32 minutes because he sucks at playing defense and tries to use his hands without moving his body. In other words, lazy.

You know its just not that simple, that TT just sucks defensively. Its also not that simple that a good defender gets fewer fouls/40mins.

Elton Brand shot 18/22 with marion guarding him in game one of the clippers series. Marion didnt pick up "silly" fouls, he "moved his feet, didnt use his hands", but Brand torched him for 80% FG's. Diaw was also unable to even slow Brand, defensively. TT played the best D against Brand, not that it was all that good, but the shooting % went DOWN compared with Diaw and Marion. The reason for this was that both Diaw and Marion did not have enough body strength to deny Brand his favorite shooting spots, and none of those guys can come close to blocking Brands shots. TT was used by Dantoni as the first defender, and then the double came with Marion or Diaw to contest the shot. This made TT get alot of fouls because he was the point man against Brand and generally does not have the footspeed to guard him without fouling. I'd rather have TT pick up fouls than have Brand shoot 80% or foul out Diaw. Most of the same was true with Nowitski, who Dantoni tried the same defenders on. Nowitski was too strong for Marion and Diaw, but TT was strong enough to limit Dirks use of physical strength to gain position.

Yeah I like Jones, but he was inconsistent shooting and that limited his minutes. Jones does pick up silly fouls, but mainly against faster guards driving to the hoop. Those fouls are not all that silly compared with a layup. Jones realized that his use of his fouls would slow the other teams scoring. If Jones was as consistent a shooter as TT, he would have played more. Is TT worth 6 mil to he suns? I dont know, but its amazing that not one poster mentioned how putting TT at the 3pt line either took a shot blocker out of the lane or gave him an open look(45% 3pt shooter). TT's value is in creating spacing on the floor for the offense. Of the suns other players, only Nash, Raja, and Barbs could do that, create spacing from the threat of a 3 point shot. If I am the other teams coach, I say let Marion, Diaw, Jones(inconsistent as hell) all shoot the three, and prevent the penetration to limit points in the paint. Next year, you can expect to add Amare and KT to the "let em shoot the 3" strategy. Where will the outside shooting come from to create the spacing next year? It had better be Jones, or he is useless as good team defenders are not that hard to come by and they dont create offensive spacing. I expect Amare to need less space to operate in the lane IF he is healthy. The pick and roll will be back if amare is healthy, but if you didnt notice, the goal of the DAntoni offense is to force spacing to either get the penetrate and kick working or just shoot the open threes. With TT gone, the suns are not as good a 3pt shooting team and spacing will be more difficult. I think DAntoni never did intend to sign TT, with that 3 mil lowball. I'm willing to let him show me why that was a good decision, though it wont be easy as the clippers became a better team and the suns became a less effective outside shooting team by letting TT go. Like I said, Im waiting for DAntoni to show me why, and it could be that next years picks are the reason, but those picks are more speculative than any deal for a vet.

 

[Errntknght]

Very good analysis, nowagimp.

I believe TT said he'd have returned to the Suns for 21 mil over 4 years so a 12.5% discount versus the Clips. Most of the time next season it might look like a good move to have passed on that but if we face the Clippers in the playoffs we may have cause to regret it.

TT was the one player we had that could push Brand off his spots at all and still keep Kamen off the floor. KT will probably do a slightly better job against Brand but he will give Kamen someone on the floor he can defend. On top of that when they play TT with Brand, TT will be able to post up whoever we have defending him except Amare so he'll pull Amare out to the 3pt line. When they play Brand, Kamen and TT together the Suns are in really bad shape - we'll just about have to counter with KT, Amare and Diaw. That will be an awkward front court for us on the offensive end unless Amare is able to knock down 3's. Meanwhile the Clips will be very comfortable - Brand will be able to shoot over KT and Kamen will be pushing Diaw out of the way to get to the offensive glass. TT will have Amare out of the way so he's not able to provide help.

 

[nowagimp]

Very good analysis, nowagimp.

I believe TT said he'd have returned to the Suns for 21 mil over 4 years so a 12.5% discount versus the Clips. Most of the time next season it might look like a good move to have passed on that but if we face the Clippers in the playoffs we may have cause to regret it.

TT was the one player we had that could push Brand off his spots at all and still keep Kamen off the floor. KT will probably do a slightly better job against Brand but he will give Kamen someone on the floor he can defend. On top of that when they play TT with Brand, TT will be able to post up whoever we have defending him except Amare so he'll pull Amare out to the 3pt line. When they play Brand, Kamen and TT together the Suns are in really bad shape - we'll just about have to counter with KT, Amare and Diaw. That will be an awkward front court for us on the offensive end unless Amare is able to knock down 3's. Meanwhile the Clips will be very comfortable - Brand will be able to shoot over KT and Kamen will be pushing Diaw out of the way to get to the offensive glass. TT will have Amare out of the way so he's not able to provide help.

Errntknght, I totally agree. You have pointed out additional concerns with our matchups and spacing with the clips now, and they are spot on. We can hope that Amare comes back with fire,Barbosa steps up again to the next level, and that DAntoni has a gem up his sleeve(sato?). I consider that clippers team -better than the Mavs- as our most dangerous opponent this coming year.

 

[George O'Brien]

Errntknght, I totally agree. You have pointed out additional concerns with our matchups and spacing with the clips now, and they are spot on. We can hope that Amare comes back with fire,Barbosa steps up again to the next level, and that DAntoni has a gem up his sleeve(sato?). I consider that clippers team -better than the Mavs- as our most dangerous opponent this coming year.

If Amare is healthy (everything starts with that), the Suns are impossible to defense. You can either try to stop Amare or go small to try to stop the Sun's shooters. But it is awfully hard to do both - especially with the Clips big lineup.

Adding TT will help their shooting, but not their defense.