Have Suns develped reputation as a soft team?

[Mainstreet]

I've been thinking the Suns have developed a reputation as a finesse team. When teams get physical with them they are vulnerable. It showed last night against the Celtics but other teams have played the Suns this way as well with some success.

On defense opponents will pack the paint, double Booker and make other players make outside shots. When the Suns don't pass the ball well and make open shots they are in trouble.

Opponents try some similar tactics on offense. They take it to the basket until the defense starts collapsing and then start getting open looks from outside. Teams know the Suns do not have a deterrent inside that's going to block shots. Baynes is great but he cannot carry the load inside on both offense and defense. He is really getting beat up.

Certainly when Ayton returns this will help both offensively and defensively but I suspect teams will play
bully ball with the Suns as well until they learn it's not effective.

Any thoughts?

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Uh, yes?

 

[Mainstreet]

I think or at least hope depth at point guard is fixable when Jerome returns. They might get some help if Tyler Johnson is played essentially as a backup point guard. He needs to get used to running the team again. Also Suns might look to the G-League for options but none are proven.

Upfront the Suns do not have a lot of options for toughness other than Ayton and Baynes.

Oubre tries his best to contend with the big boys at small forward but he is pretty light at 6'7."

Saric is not a banger and Kaminsky is not very athletic. The Suns may need some help on the front line but they do not have many assets left to spend.

 

[95pro]

I thought this was already the case?


Early games this season showed we were hustling for those 50/50 balls. Lately we arent' putting that extra hustle in or moving the ball like we did. Scouting reports are adapting. The celtics still doubled booker and drove in at will because we have no shot blockers.

 

[StreetTruckinTitan]

The Suns have had that label for as long as I remember. Especially interior defense.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I've been thinking the Suns have developed a reputation as a finesse team. When teams get physical with them they are vulnerable. It showed last night against the Celtics but other teams have played the Suns this way as well with some success.

On defense opponents will pack the paint, double Booker and make other players make outside shots. When the Suns don't pass the ball well and make open shots they are in trouble.

Opponents try some similar tactics on offense. They take it to the basket until the defense starts collapsing and then start getting open looks from outside. Teams know the Suns do not have a deterrent inside that's going to block shots. Baynes is great but he cannot carry the load inside on both offense and defense. He is really getting beat up.

Certainly when Ayton returns this will help both offensively and defensively but I suspect teams will play
bully ball with the Suns as well until they learn it's not effective.

Any thoughts?

Historically? Yes. Of course. JC even got league rules changed to accommodate his preferred style of play.

So far this year? On offense? Yes. The passing and shooting is beautiful basketball. But I do not know anyone that is playing bruiser ball consistently anymore except the Lakers and Sixers.

On defense? Maybe starting to. This team was playing really tough defense early, but it has dropped off some. I believe there are three reasons.

1. Carter got benched. He set a defensive tone, especially coming off the bench. It’s harder as a starter.

2. Baynes has taken some pretty hard shots. Both of those Cam Reddish hits the other night were pretty brutal. The guy might just be hurting. And tired. He is not used to playing this many minutes.

3. It is hard for a team to keep up this intensity. I admire Monty for getting them there at all, but now he has to find a way to sustain it.

 

[BC867]

The Suns have had that label for as long as I remember. Especially interior defense.

For decades the Suns were labelled as a finesse team.

Then small ball (referring to bulk rather than height).

Interesting that the finesse label has resurfaced.

As you posted, the label didn't just develop.

Even when Ayton comes back, it doesn't change.

It will be most evident down the stretch and if we
make the playoffs, when the refs swallow their
whistles. And the meek sink into the sunset.

But compared to the past decade, it will be a step up.

As the saying goes, be thankful for little things.

 

[SirStefan32]

I think you are correct in that the teams have figured out that they can bully the Suns in the paint. Without Ayton, they don't have a shot blocker, and they are athletically limited. Baynes is a tough guy, but he is not a shot blocker. Saric and Kaminsky are not terrible defensively, but they are not big, long, or athletic. I don't even think that they are "soft", I just think they are not shot-blockers. Getting Ayton back should help, but I definitely think that this will remain their biggest weakness, even with Ayton.Ayton is not exactly known as "tough", but he is very long and difficult to overpower.

When I think about this team's needs, the first item on my list is some length and athleticism at the 4 spot. Second one is a backup point guard, though TJ does that well enough most nights, and Jerome should help as well.

On the flip side, they are pretty tough and scrappy when it comes to guards and wings. Rubio, TJ, Kelly, and Mikal are all tough defenders, and even Booker looks like an average defender. I haven't looked at the stats, but my perception is that the refs are giving them more respect than they used to.

 

[Mainstreet]

I wanted the thread to explore how opposing teams play the Suns on defense. As I mentioned they double team and trap Booker at every opportunity, clog the middle and force other players to shoot from outside.

It's not just one team but a strategy of every opponent who can pull it off. When the Suns shoot well and pass the ball they are fine but when they do not, it's another matter.

The Suns inside players such as Oubre, Saric and Kaminsky have a tough time scoring inside with a packed lane. They are simply not physical enough. They are best when the court is spread where they have room to operate.

I wanted to explore if Ayton and Baynes are enough physical presence to make a run at the playoffs

Perhaps the thread title should have read, "Have Suns developed reputation as a soft team?

I do not like to see the Suns looked at as soft... finesse okay... but not soft.

Can't get Ayton back quick enough. Another 4/5 that is athletic and can bang some would be a welcome addition. Maybe something happens before the trade deadline.

I'm hoping the backup point guard situation will work itself out when Jerome returns.

 

[dscher]

It would be soft as hell out there without Baynes imo..

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

They might be seen as soft in the middle, but they definitely have some toughness 1-3 and with Baynes. Hopefully Ayton shows that he has taken the next step in that department, but we do at least need 1 PF with some length and athleticism if we are going to get teams to respect us in the paint. Having both Ayton and Baynes available will help quite a bit though.

 

[Mainstreet]

I'm changing the thread title to "Have Suns developed reputation as a soft team?" because it's more indicative of what I meant to say.

 

[Timm Rosenbach]

I tried to watch the game tonight. I couldn’t get through it. No intestinal fortitude. I think that we will not see a change until there is a change at the very top

 

[Mainstreet]

I tried to watch the game tonight. I couldn’t get through it. No intestinal fortitude. I think that we will not see a change until there is a change at the very top

I do not believe there is a hole at the top (management). What we are seeing is opponents exploit the Suns weakness at power forward and depth at point guard until Ty Jerome returns.

I think point guard will eventually work itself out, but I'm not sure about the 4/5 spot. It's a lot to ask for Baynes and Ayton to carry the Suns every night. There will be nights where one gets in foul trouble early or they get nicked up. Still having at least one big man available every night will be huge.

It's hard to imagine the Suns finding another effective big man less a trade but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be exploring G-League options.

 

[JCSunsfan]

When you are missing Ayton and Baynes it makes a huge difference. The depth and size slides down. Kaminski is a big pf but a small center same with Saric. When every one plays a position bigger than their natural position it impacts toughness.

The Lakers would look soft without AD. Same with the sixers without Embiid.

 

[Hoop Head]

When you are missing Ayton and Baynes it makes a huge difference. The depth and size slides down. Kaminski is a big pf but a small center same with Saric. When every one plays a position bigger than their natural position it impacts toughness.

The Lakers would look soft without AD. Same with the sixers without Embiid.

I agree with the first part but not the 2nd. The Lakers look old without AD. Lebron can play PF and might be better suited there long term as he gets older but that doesn't give them a size advantage to exploit on offense or defense. AD allows them to play big, which has helped them defensively this year, and they have a lot of other players who help keep them from being soft like Danny Green, Avery Bradley, Caldwell Pope, and a resurrected Dwight Howard. I'd include Rondo in there as well but he only just returned from injury. Those guys are defenders first and offensive players second.

We saw the Sixers without Embiid and they weren't soft or small. They signed Horford so they can maintain their size advantage and it's basically allowed them to play everyone else a position down from where they'd play if they were on another team. Horford was a C in Boston but a PF in Philly, Tobias Harris was a PF for the Clippers and a SF in Philly, and Josh Richardson was a SF in Miami but a SG in Philly.

Without Embiid they lose some of their size advantages across the board but they're still big since they have a 6'10" PG that they've learned to play big SG's with so defenses can't hide a smaller PG on another player, which is what other teams did last year when they had Reddick as their SG before the trades to bring in Jimmy Butler and Tobias Harris. Without Embiid they move everyone to their more natural positions but they aren't soft and for an eastern conference team they aren't small either.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I agree with the first part but not the 2nd. The Lakers look old without AD. Lebron can play PF and might be better suited there long term as he gets older but that doesn't give them a size advantage to exploit on offense or defense. AD allows them to play big, which has helped them defensively this year, and they have a lot of other players who help keep them from being soft like Danny Green, Avery Bradley, Caldwell Pope, and a resurrected Dwight Howard. I'd include Rondo in there as well but he only just returned from injury. Those guys are defenders first and offensive players second.

We saw the Sixers without Embiid and they weren't soft or small. They signed Horford so they can maintain their size advantage and it's basically allowed them to play everyone else a position down from where they'd play if they were on another team. Horford was a C in Boston but a PF in Philly, Tobias Harris was a PF for the Clippers and a SF in Philly, and Josh Richardson was a SF in Miami but a SG in Philly.

Without Embiid they lose some of their size advantages across the board but they're still big since they have a 6'10" that they've learned to play big SG's with so defenses can't hide a smaller PG on another player, which is what other teams last year when they had Reddick as their SG before the trades to bring in Jimmy Butler and Tobias Harris. Without Embiid they move everyone to their more natural positions but they aren't soft and for an eastern conference team they aren't small either.

agreed whole-heartedly with all of the above. both of those teams have multiple hard-nosed defenders, a lot of length and athleticism. without Ayton, we really have one bruiser down low with Baynes and pretty much nothing else as far as "power" players. it was one of my concerns during the off-season of how glued to the floor this team could be, athletically speaking.

monty did a great job early in the season making up that with a team that just swarmed to every loose ball, but like most of us, we wondered how long that intensity could hold. I'm hoping we hover around .500 for the next 13 games and look forward to seeing if Ayton can make a big impact in our biggest area of need. Hoping Monty has gotten thru to him over the summer and during his suspension to make that a reality.