Here's the latest cuts

Moose Lady

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TUCSON, Ariz. -- The Diamondbacks pared their roster to 39, sending 10 players to minor league camp Monday.
Pitchers Andrew Good and Brandon Webb, infielders Matt Kata and Tim Olson along with outfielder Doug DeVore -- all members of the 40-man roster -- were optioned to Triple-A Tucson.

Pitchers Paul Abbott, Ricky Bottalico and Manny Aybar along with catcher Willie Morales and infielder Mike Bell -- all non-roster invitees signed to minor league deals -- were sent to minor league camp.

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There's no surprises there. And at least we know that we have some good, young players down in Tucson that we can call up if needed. I think I'm gonna keep a check on Devo and Matt Kata along with Andrew Good.
 

Derek in Tucson

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Just semantics, but here goes anyway...Like somebody else said on a different board, using the term "cuts" is a bit harsh. These NRI minor leaguers really didn't have a shot at making the team and they knew it. So I like to think of it as they were reassigned, not cut. I think cut should be reserved for when a player is given his unconditional release.

Anyway, just a pet peeve of mine I thought I'd throw out.
 

mark1

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Villarreal was not one of the cuts. I wonder if the D-Backs could be showcasing him? Tucson is going to be crowded this year. A trade for a righthanded bat could be in the works.

I figure if I make enough predictions, one of them is bound to come true :)
 

Derek in Tucson

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I hope they aren't thinking of trading Villareal. He's been rushed a bit through the minors where he's usually been one of the youngest players at each level along the way. This year he's finally settling in a bit in that regards and could have a Jerome Williams type year in AAA. But you're right, it is going to be a bit crowded in the Tucson rotation if Randolph doesn't make the DBacks out of camp. A lot of it depends though on how far Capuano is coming along in his recovery from TJ surgery. I'm not sure he's fit enough yet to be able to go once every 5 days since it's been about 11 months since his surgery.

edit: Btw, it's disappointing to see the Arizona Republic classify Villareal as a "reliever". He's been a starter his whole career and that's what he was used as in his last start down in Hermosillo the other day when he went 6 innings and threw a great game after giving up a solo shot to Mike Sweeney in the 1st inning.. Now the DBacks could possibly use him as a reliever, but that would be a mistake at this point. He's only 21, and hasn't given any sign yet that he wouldn't be useful as a starter.
 
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mark1

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Brenly loves Villarreal. The kid has great poise and stuff for a 21 yr old. I hope they don't trade him either. I want to see our AAA pitching develop and make the big club. But, I can't help but think they are getting concerned about Overbay. The D-Backs, who have high hopes for the World Series, have put alot of pressure on a kid who has 10 big league at bats. He wouldn't be the first rookie to be in over his head.(John Patterson?)
It might be asking alot for a rookie with those kind of expectations on a veteran club to perform at a big league level. I wish Brenly would have kept his big mouth shut and not announced that Overbay and Patterson had starting jobs sewed up. I hope I'm wrong and Overbay starts hitting like he always has. If not, he might start the year out at Tucson and the D-Backs will be forced to play Grace everyday.
 
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Moose Lady

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Originally posted by mark1
Villarreal was not one of the cuts. I wonder if the D-Backs could be showcasing him? Tucson is going to be crowded this year. A trade for a righthanded bat could be in the works.

I figure if I make enough predictions, one of them is bound to come true :)


If we go by that reasoning then they may be showcasing Brad Cresse as well since he wasn't on the list either. Also Chad Tracy. I sure hope we don't get rid of anyone that could be a potential star in the future.
 
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Moose Lady

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Originally posted by mark1
Brenly loves Villarreal. The kid has great poise and stuff for a 21 yr old. I hope they don't trade him either. I want to see our AAA pitching develop and make the big club. But, I can't help but think they are getting concerned about Overbay. The D-Backs, who have high hopes for the World Series, have put alot of pressure on a kid who has 10 big league at bats. He wouldn't be the first rookie to be in over his head.(John Patterson?)
It might be asking alot for a rookie with those kind of expectations on a veteran club to perform at a big league level. I wish Brenly would have kept his big mouth shut and not announced that Overbay and Patterson had starting jobs sewed up. I hope I'm wrong and Overbay starts hitting like he always has. If not, he might start the year out at Tucson and the D-Backs will be forced to play Grace everyday.

No, he wouldn't be the first rookie. The first rookie was Travis Lee. And if Lyle, for some reason, doesn't make it as our 1st baseman, I think you will start hearing alot of people saying that maybe Joe * and BB put all their confidence in 1 player without having anyone for back-up in case it didn't work out. And I'm pretty certain they didn't sign Gracie to be his back-up, at least not for any length of time. [/B]
 

schillingfan

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Originally posted by mark1
I wish Brenly would have kept his big mouth shut and not announced that Overbay and Patterson had starting jobs sewed up. I hope I'm wrong and Overbay starts hitting like he always has. If not, he might start the year out at Tucson and the D-Backs will be forced to play Grace everyday.
I don't believe that competition and insecurity makes young players play better. They have plenty of incentive to do well. They've waited their whole lives to play in the majors. If anything security lets them relax a bit without extra pressure.

If anything, security is good when it comes to overpaid veterans whomight be getting complacent and the footsteps from a younger guy can push them.
 

moviegeekjn

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Originally posted by mark1
I wish Brenly would have kept his big mouth shut and not announced that Overbay and Patterson had starting jobs sewed up. I hope I'm wrong and Overbay starts hitting like he always has. If not, he might start the year out at Tucson and the D-Backs will be forced to play Grace everyday.
Getting proven younger players to relax is not necessarily a bad thing. Both Overbay and Patterson have labored in the minors for many years and gone through plenty of struggles.... They still will not relax to the point of complacency since they KNOW that they can easily be sent back down for not producing--BB was simply showing confidence in their abilities based on their track record.
 

mark1

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Overbay was 0-3 last night with 3 strikeouts. When the Padre announcers talked to Mark Grace before last nights game, they said Mark, you might be playing more than you thought, and Grace said yea I think so.


When asked if Overbay was in danger of not being on the Opening Day roster, Brenly said, "There's always a danger, I guess."

Patterson is scheduled to pitch today against the Brewers. Time is running out for these two. If Patterson doesn't pitch well today, he might start the year out with the Sidewinders also. His spring ERA is over 7. Maybe that is why Brenly wanted to see Villareal again. Could Oscar possibly make the opening day roster? Oscar has pitched 14 innings, only given up 7 hits, 3 runs, and his ERA is 1.93

I know he is only 21 but they love his poise.

Just some thoughts :)
 

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Watching last night, I thought Overbay's swing was just plain ugly - I mean his form seemed poor. When some guys whiff, it still looks like a good swing - but he just looked lost.
Wonder if someone tried to tinker with his swing.

As to JP - he had a couple very good starts - he was matching RJ game for game at first - then he fell on hard times. I wish he hadn't fiddled around with his delivery/mechanics, it sounds like he's in between old and new and neither is working naturally just now. Both BK and Miguel have also presented very mixed spring performances, too. One big question for the team is what to do with Steve Randolph - he's pitching well, and he's out of options.
 

DWKB

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Originally posted by AZZenny
One big question for the team is what to do with Steve Randolph - he's pitching well, and he's out of options.

If this is true, can someone explain to me how a player who has never played a major league game can be out of options?

I know Randolph was a Rule 5 pick up and that it was before we even had a major league team so I don't even know how the typical Rule 5 rules work for him.
 

schillingfan

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It's my understanding that you have to have been optioned down 3 times after you are put on the 40 man roster. I believe each year that you are in the minors is an option year by definition. So once you are put on the 40 man roster and you spend any portion of that year in the minors it's considered an option year (by definition you are optioned to the minors, you don't have to be on the 25 for a game and then sent down to be optioned).

So if he has been on the D-Backs 40 man roster for 3 years and didn't spend a full year on the 25 man roster he would be optioned.

I believe you are wrong about him being a Rule 5 draftee of the D-Backs. He was a draftee of the Yankees and spent 1997 in Tampa of the Florida State League, which is their single "A" affiliate. In 1998 he was in Hi-Desert of the California League (was that a single "A" affiliate of D-Backs then?. Perhaps he was acquired by the D-Backs in the expansion draft. He spent 1999 bouncing between Tucson, El Paso and the D-Backs, pitching in 2 games for the D-Backs (so he has pitched in the majors). He was out of baseball in 2000 and 2001 (injuries ???).

D-Backs would have to have put him on their 40 man roster in 1999 it looks like because he started in 1995 at age 18.

Even if he is out of options, it looks like he qualified as a 6 year minor league free agent as well. He should have been out of options last year.

Unless he's a late blooming lefty, at age 28, turning 29 in a month I'm not sure why anyone would care or if anyone would pick him up and put him on their 25 man roster anyway.

 

DWKB

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Originally posted by schillingfan

I believe you are wrong about him being a Rule 5 draftee of the D-Backs. He was a draftee of the Yankees and spent 1997 in Tampa of the Florida State League, which is their single "A" affiliate. In 1998 he was in Hi-Desert of the California League (was that a single "A" affiliate of D-Backs then?. Perhaps he was acquired by the D-Backs in the expansion draft. He spent 1999 bouncing between Tucson, El Paso and the D-Backs, pitching in 2 games for the D-Backs (so he has pitched in the majors). He was out of baseball in 2000 and 2001 (injuries ???).

PREMIUM PITCHING: Double-A El Paso (D-backs) lefty Steve Randolph pitched the first nine-inning no-hitter in Diablos history Aug. 14, a 2-0 victory at Arkansas (Angels). Randolph had not pitched past the sixth inning in his 14 previous appearances since being demoted from Triple-A. He walked four and struck out five. Randolph, 27, was taken from the Yankees system in the 1997 Rule 5 draft

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/***/2001-08-22/2001-08-22-minnotes.htm


...and I believe you're correct on everything else. A 40 man spot counts just as much as a 25 man spot which was what I was unsure of.
 
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schillingfan

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It looks like he was taken in the minor league portion of the Rule 5 draft.

If a player is put on the AAA team before the draft, he must be put on the 25 man roster for a whole year.

If he is on a roster below AAA, then he is a minor league Rule 5 player. To be honest I'm not sure what a team must do when someone is drafted from the minor league portion of the Rule 5 draft, possibly just be put on the 40 man?
 

Derek in Tucson

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No, he wouldn't have to be put on the 40 man roster if he was taken in the AAA or AA protions of the rule 5 draft.

---------------------------------------------------------------
There are three separate phases in the Rule 5 Draft: the Major League phase, the Class AAA phase and the Class AA phase. A player selected in one of the three phases must be placed at the same level of the phase in which the player was selected. Within each phase, only eligible players from a lower classification club are eligible for selection. For example, in the AAA phase, players must be selected from a club's AA or lower roster and must be placed on the selecting club's AAA roster."

If a player is released and then re-signed by the same club within a year, the player becomes eligible for the next Rule 5 Draft. A Major League Club may designate any player on one of its Minor League rosters to be subject to selection who otherwise would not be eligible.

The selecting club must pay the club from which a player is selected:
(1) $50,000, if the selected player is placed on a Major League roster;
(2) $12,000, if the selected player is placed on a Class AAA roster;
(3) $4,000, if the selected player is placed on a Class AA roster.

A player drafted to a Major League level must remain at that club for the duration of the season unless offered back to the team from which he was selected. Players drafted to a AAA or AA club should be offered an opportunity to remain at that level during spring training, but it is not required.
------------------------------------------------------

http://www.whitecaps-baseball.com/ABOUT/faqs.html

Hope this helps.

Just as an FYI, often you'll see players from A ball promoted to the AA or AAA level if the team wants to add some protection to keep a player right before the rule 5 draft. One reason is that the higher the level, the more it costs to select the player. Another is because of the spirit of the law where a player has to be "offered and opportunity to remain at that level". Can't say I've ever heard of a player returned though by a team who violated the "spirit of the rule".

Edit: As far as Randolph goes, here's how the options work:

"When a player is added to a 40-man roster for the first time, the major league team is permitted three optional assignments of his contract, or three "option years." This gives them the option to assign that player to the minor leagues without requiring him to clear waivers. For each season thereafter in which the player is assigned to a minor league team, one option is used up."

Randolph has never pitched at the major league level. In 1999 he pitched for the DBacks rookie team here in Tucson, then AA, and AAA. Now I don't know if he's been on the 40 man roster for the last 3 years or more, but that could explain why he's out of options. Although it isn't clear, I think that once a player is on the 40 man roster, his options clock starts and it's 3 years whether he goes up to the major league club or not. Could be wrong on that, but it's my guess.
 
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AZZenny

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Last night BB was saying that they basically lost a couple option years to injuries, and now he looks very much on target, and something to the effect that "He's forcing us to look at some very tough choices" because they doubt he'd clear waivers. I thought he'd done well last year, but at the time someone pointed out his walks were too high.
 

schillingfan

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Originally posted by Derek in Tucson
Although it isn't clear, I think that once a player is on the 40 man roster, his options clock starts and it's 3 years whether he goes up to the major league club or not. Could be wrong on that, but it's my guess.
I have asked this question before and been told by those who understand the rules more than me that they have to actually be "optioned" to the minors. Any year where someone is on the 25 man roster the whole year does not count as an option year. Course that's when the major league service days come into effect for arbitration and free agency.

The minor league site I use said he pitched 2 games for the D-Backs in 1999. It's the baseball cube site which is the only comprehensive one I've seen for minor leaguers since it includes ones who are not yet major leaguers

Baseball Cube

Zenny, I'd suspect that's because he's a left-hander. If you look at his minor league record, it's pretty unimpressive. But I'd take him over Swindell.

D-Backs do have some tough decisions because Prinz and Koplove have options left.
 

mark1

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Patterson pitched 5 innings, 8 hits, 1 earned run, no bases on balls, 2 strikeouts, 2 base hits.

Overbay went 3 for 3, 1 double, 1 rbi

Way to go rookies! :)
 

Derek in Tucson

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EEk! I've always hated those popups at Baseeball Cube. :)

Actually if you look at his 1999 line, you'll see under the league name, "Ariz.". That's the designation for the Arizona Rookie League, and all the team names for that league are exactly the same a the parent club. Now the DBacks don't have a team in that league anymore, but back in 1999 they did.

FWIW, I used Way More Sports to find Randolph's previous seasons.

Note under his stats at that site that he did pitch in 2000 and 2001, and that the 1999 league designation for his stint with the "AZL Diamondbacks" is "R". R=rookie league and I've seen that acronym on more than one site.

Also, I think this Randolph situation would be a good question for one of Baseball America's chats or some other chat where a front office GM or asst GM is around to field questions. I'll see what I can find out....might take me awhile though, but I'll do some digging.
 

schillingfan

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I like the Way More Sports site too. I keep forgetting that they have stats on minor leaguers who are on the 40 man rosters, even if they've never been in the majors. The nicest thing about that site is that they list all of the transactions so you get a really nice history as well as the minor league production.

It would be interesting to ask a GM about Randolph. Some of my friends consider finding the actual manual that execs use to be their own holy grail because there are so many twists and turns.

It occurred to me that maybe one explanation for Randolph is that he was on the 60 day DL for all of 2000 and 2001. I know that technically a team could put someone picked up in Rule 5 on the 60 day DL the whole year and they would be considered on the major league roster. So perhaps his DL counted as being on the 25 man roster and thus no options used if he was on it the whole year?
 
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