Hightower loses starting job or Whis loses credibility

[Stout]

After Hightower's fumble, he didn't get another carry the rest of the game, so essentially Whiz did bench him.

Beanie > Hightower, I think we can all agree on that, so Wells should definitely start and get the majority of carries, but we need Hightower to contribute also.

Exactly. Whis did the right thing there.

DieHard, you're pretty upset, and I can't tell you not to be, as mad as I am at this game. Still, just because people want to see more Beanie Wells doesn't mean they hate THT. Last year I was calling for THT over Edge, just as I am callie for BW over THT this year. Still love Timmy and what he can bring, but I want him to play less as Wells grows into the starting role.

 

[john h]

No way Whis, if he wants to remain credible, can let Hightower continue as starter. Edge was benched for less last year and Hightower's got fumbilitis in his head now.

Stop dicking around with the Wells isn't starter game-playing and just make the move. The time is now. If both of them are going to be fumble risks, there's no reason not to start the much more explosive Wells.

Put Hightower back in the situational/relief role where he belongs.

Both of our RB's have a serious problem holding on to the ball. Can this be cured or coached? I really do not know. I do know it cannot contiune to go on or we will seriously be looking for another RB as you can gain a 100 yards but compared to a couple of fumbles that just does not work. Maybe these guys just cannot run effectively holding on to the ball with two hands? I really do not know. It can get into their heads and make a fumble more likely. I recall Steve Sax the very fine 2nd baseman for the Dodgers getting developing a problem where he just could not make a simple throw to first base. It got so bad they had to take him out of the lineup. This lasted nearly all year but he finally came out of it and was probably an allstar 2nd baseman later on. There was a catcher in the ML who could not throw the ball back to the pitcher. He ended up out of baseball.

I hope our two young RB's can learn to hold on to the ball or they will find themselves out of football. That just does not get it as turnovers probably cause more lost games than any other single factor.

 

[john h]

Hightower is a huge piece of garbage who should be permanently benched...

The guy is not garbage. I am sure he feels worse than anyone on the team or in the stands. His football career is at stake. He has the effort and the skill but if he does not learn to hold on to the ball real quick he will be out of football and we once again will be looking for a RB in the draft. The guy can block. Maybe he should become a blocking TE who can occasionally catch a pass. He has been good as a receiver and blocker. This is very much in his head now which makes a fumble even more likely. Other teams have noticed this and will be all over him to cause a fumble. Wells has some of the same problems but not as bad as Hightower. We are not nearly as good with only one RB as with two.

Hope the dude comes out of it for his sake as well as for the team and fans. He has got to be really hurting. He and Wells are really young but that want buy you a cup of coffee in the NFL>

 

[john h]

Hightower is playing better than Warner is. So we have that going for us.

Some of those Warner fumbles was when he was blindsided when a blocker did not lay a hand on the defender. Warner was being mobbed during that game and more so the further we got behind.

 

[Shane]

Wells has some of the same problems but not as bad as Hightower. We are not nearly as good with only one RB as with two.

Actually he is worse john. They are each credited with 4 fumbles.

However I believe it was the first Seahawks game IIRC Beanie fumbled the ball inside the 10 yard line of Seattle and recovered it himself yet wasnt credited for a fumble. Darren Urban made clear reference to it in one of his blogs post game because of Beanies problems holding onto the ball. Urban didnt understand how he didnt get credited for the cough up.

You can also throw in the two pitches into his arms that he flat out dropped yet he wasnt credited with a fumble on either of those for some reason. The opposing team did recover one of those as well. By that count its 7-4 Beanie with both losing 3.

 

[DieHardCardFan]

Exactly. Whis did the right thing there.

DieHard, you're pretty upset, and I can't tell you not to be, as mad as I am at this game. Still, just because people want to see more Beanie Wells doesn't mean they hate THT. Last year I was calling for THT over Edge, just as I am callie for BW over THT this year. Still love Timmy and what he can bring, but I want him to play less as Wells grows into the starting role.

You are right I have been upset about the game. And maybe you are not saying you hate THT, but all season long some people have been bashing THT. Some of them stopped after he had several good games in a row. But they still continually stuck the little plugs in about BW not getting the bulk of the carries and how much more effective he would have been with those carries. And then we find ourselves in week 13 and BW has more carries than THT and still has yet to be more effective. I am not knocking BW and have not yet. I just have been getting a little tired of the BW HOF talk when he has not proven to be any more effective than (according so many here) a at best back up RB in THT.

Shane has asked some simple questions to give people a chance to back thier positions and no one has taken him up on that. And the reason why is because they cant.

I will stick with the same position I have had all season, I want BOTH of these guys to be successful and I trust Whis to make the right call on the percentage of carries each gets. I have no interest in seeing THT or BW get the bulk of the carries just for the sake of giving them the carries. If both are producing equally, as they are, split it up, keep them fresh.

 

[az1965]

Beanie has gotten the majority of the carries this season and produced less that THT!

Really?

Beanie = carries 136; yds 596; avg 4.4; TD 5; Fum 4; Lst 2
TH = carries 121; yds 538; avg 4.4; TD 6; Fum 5; Lst 4

TH 2nd season
Beanie rookie with essentially no training camp, no volutary camp, so his production was not that good early this season with fewer carries.

 

[DieHardCardFan]

Really?

Beanie = carries 136; yds 596; avg 4.4; TD 5; Fum 4; Lst 2
TH = carries 121; yds 538; avg 4.4; TD 6; Fum 5; Lst 4

TH 2nd season
Beanie rookie with essentially no training camp, no volutary camp, so his production was not that good early this season with fewer carries.

Actually I posted that before the stats showed the MNF game, and he was producing less. He raised his average slightly with that game. And as for struggling early, that is not true. He had a much higher average early on. His stats have dropped over the season. He is back to an upswing now.

 

[az1965]

The guy is not garbage. I am sure he feels worse than anyone on the team or in the stands. His football career is at stake. He has the effort and the skill but if he does not learn to hold on to the ball real quick he will be out of football and we once again will be looking for a RB in the draft. The guy can block. Maybe he should become a blocking TE who can occasionally catch a pass. He has been good as a receiver and blocker. This is very much in his head now which makes a fumble even more likely. Other teams have noticed this and will be all over him to cause a fumble. Wells has some of the same problems but not as bad as Hightower. We are not nearly as good with only one RB as with two.

Hope the dude comes out of it for his sake as well as for the team and fans. He has got to be really hurting. He and Wells are really young but that want buy you a cup of coffee in the NFL>

That was an emotional comment at the time when it happenned... I certainly do not believe that. I like TH quite a bit but that was pretty damn frustrating... of course that frustration kept mounting as we kept turning it over almost to the point of me holding my head with both hands almost at the verge of hitting my head on the wall.

 

[az1965]

Actually I posted that before the stats showed the MNF game, and he was producing less. He raised his average slightly with that game. And as for struggling early, that is not true. He had a much higher average early on. His stats have dropped over the season. He is back to an upswing now.

Let's see...

carries/yds/td

49ers: Beanie 7/29/0; TH 8/15/0
Jags: Beanie 7/44/0; TH 15/72/1 - Beanie benched after his two fumbles
Colts: Beanie 2/-2/0; TH 9/22/0
Texans: Beanie 7/24/0; TH 6/17/1
Hawks: Beanie 12/29/0; TH 13/32/1
Giants: Beanie 14/67/1; TH 4/9/1
Panthers: Beanie 8/47/0; TH 8/39/1
Bears: Beanie 13/72/0; TH 15/77/0
Hawks: Beanie 16/85/2; TH 10/37/0
Rams: Beanie 14/74/1; TH 14/110/0
Titans: Beanie 11/55/1; TH 8/20/0
Vikes: Beanie 13/28/0; TH 6/50/0
49ers: Beanie 15/79/1; TH 2/3/0

Green = Beanie edge
Red = TH edge
Blue = wash

I see a pretty even spread of Beanie's performance and not that he performed well early on and then regressed... Again, all this performance from him after he missed pretty much the entire off season. Wait till he has this season under his belt and the entire next off season. Raw talent wise there is no comparison between the two.

Also, relatively he clearly had fewer carries and fewer yards in the first 5 games. He picked up afterwards and had one really subpar game against Vikings.

 

[DieHardCardFan]

Let's see...

carries/yds/td

49ers: Beanie 7/29/0; TH 8/15/0
Jags: Beanie 7/44/0; TH 15/72/1 - Beanie benched after his two fumbles
Colts: Beanie 2/-2/0; TH 9/22/0
Texans: Beanie 7/24/0; TH 6/17/1
Hawks: Beanie 12/29/0; TH 13/32/1
Giants: Beanie 14/67/1; TH 4/9/1
Panthers: Beanie 8/47/0; TH 8/39/1
Bears: Beanie 13/72/0; TH 15/77/0
Hawks: Beanie 16/85/2; TH 10/37/0
Rams: Beanie 14/74/1; TH 14/110/0
Titans: Beanie 11/55/1; TH 8/20/0
Vikes: Beanie 13/28/0; TH 6/50/0
49ers: Beanie 15/79/1; TH 2/3/0

Green = Beanie edge
Red = TH edge
Blue = wash

I see a pretty even spread of Beanie's performance and not that he performed well early on and then regressed... Again, all this performance from him after he missed pretty much the entire off season. Wait till he has this season under his belt and the entire next off season. Raw talent wise there is no comparison between the two.

Also, relatively he clearly had fewer carries and fewer yards in the first 5 games. He picked up afterwards and had one really subpar game against Vikings.

I dont have time right now to break those down into a running YPC over each game. But I will tomorrow. And I may be wrong, but I dont believe I am. And I hope what you are PREDICTING about come next year is correct. That is what we all want right. What if THT has the same improvement, now that would sure be awesome. It would sure get alot of Cards/Beanie fans upset though. I would love for the decision on who starts to be the hardest decision Whis has to make each week. That would sure be a great problem to have.

 

[40yearfan]

This has to be the dumbest thread I ever wasted my time reading. When is this group going to quit singling out an individual and trying to blame the whole loss on him? This team wins together and it loses together. Thank goodness the players aren't as fickle as some of these fans. If they were, we'd be 5 and 8 instead of 8 and 5. We are leading the division by 2 games with 3 games left. We had a bad game. It happens. Look at last years' SB winner. Would you trade places with them?

This team needs all of it's pieces if it plans on going to the SB again. Instead of tearing these players down, lets give them a little love and a whole lot of support. Negativity belongs to losers and cry babies.

 

[az1965]

And I hope what you are PREDICTING about come next year is correct. That is what we all want right. What if THT has the same improvement, now that would sure be awesome. It would sure get alot of Cards/Beanie fans upset though. I would love for the decision on who starts to be the hardest decision Whis has to make each week. That would sure be a great problem to have.

I hope so too... it would be cool to have two highly productive backs... when was the last time we had one, let alone two such backs?

 

[Stout]

This has to be the dumbest thread I ever wasted my time reading. When is this group going to quit singling out an individual and trying to blame the whole loss on him? This team wins together and it loses together. Thank goodness the players aren't as fickle as some of these fans. If they were, we'd be 5 and 8 instead of 8 and 5. We are leading the division by 2 games with 3 games left. We had a bad game. It happens. Look at last years' SB winner. Would you trade places with them?

This team needs all of it's pieces if it plans on going to the SB again. Instead of tearing these players down, lets give them a little love and a whole lot of support. Negativity belongs to losers and cry babies.

You're right that we win together and lose together, 40...but...THT has really set the tone, in a negative fashion, two games in a row. Killer early turnovers. Sure, they can be overcome, but how many games should you expect to overcome that kind of mistake to win? I think some of the hyperbole has gone overboard against THT, but I also think he deserves to suffer a good bit of blame.

 

[Shane]

You're right that we win together and lose together, 40...but...THT has really set the tone, in a negative fashion, two games in a row. Killer early turnovers. Sure, they can be overcome, but how many games should you expect to overcome that kind of mistake to win? I think some of the hyperbole has gone overboard against THT, but I also think he deserves to suffer a good bit of blame.

I don't buy the whole set the tone argument you keep bringing up. If that's setting the tone then I hope he keeps it up(see dominating performances @ Giants and home against Minny) where he "set the tone" as you say. I'll take those outcomes all day long. Timmy didn't make or cause 4 other fumbles or two int's because he fumbled early. No way no how!

Fumbles in the 1st qtr are no more harmful than one in the 2nd 3rd or 4th.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

I don't buy the whole set the tone argument you keep bringing up. If that's setting the tone then I hope he keeps it up(see dominating performances @ Giants and home against Minny) where he "set the tone" as you say. I'll take those outcomes all day long. Timmy didn't make or cause 4 other fumbles or two int's because he fumbled early. No way no how!

Fumbles in the 1st qtr are no more harmful than one in the 2nd 3rd or 4th.

You get the hat trick: (IMO)

 

[joeshmo]

I don't buy the whole set the tone argument you keep bringing up. If that's setting the tone then I hope he keeps it up(see dominating performances @ Giants and home against Minny) where he "set the tone" as you say. I'll take those outcomes all day long. Timmy didn't make or cause 4 other fumbles or two int's because he fumbled early. No way no how!

Fumbles in the 1st qtr are no more harmful than one in the 2nd 3rd or 4th.

1. Your opinion differs from coach who in a recent radio interview was quoted as saying Hightowers Fumble set a BAD TONE to the game. Also stated the team fought through it in the Minny game but couldnt on the road for some reason.

2. Timmy barely even touched the field against the Giants. You must be thinking about another game, Rams maybe. Touched the ball a total of 6 times and Beanie also got the bulk of the pass blocking snaps as well(first and only time getting that duty this year). Wasnt dominate in Minny either, you cant be dominate only touching the ball 7 times, zero TD's, and one lost fumble that lead to a TD.

 

[Shane]

1. Your opinion differs from coach who in a recent radio interview was quoted as saying Hightowers Fumble set a BAD TONE to the game. Also stated the team fought through it in the Minny game but couldnt on the road for some reason.

2. Timmy barely even touched the field against the Giants. You must be thinking about another game, Rams maybe. Touched the ball a total of 6 times and Beanie also got the bulk of the pass blocking snaps as well(first and only time getting that duty this year). Wasnt dominate in Minny either, you cant be dominate only touching the ball 7 times, zero TD's, and one lost fumble that lead to a TD.

The coach is entitled to his opinion. and I respect it. Just don't agree. Tone is completely the wrong word. "setting the tone" suggests that the whole team fumbled and played crappy because of Timmy. I don't buy it and never will. A turnover may cause a "momentum" shift but they do at any point in the game and they usually don't last for very long IMO.

As far as #2? I never said Timmy tore it up in the Giants game or Minny game. All I said is that if thats setting the tone. Then I hope he keeps it up because the "tone" of those games were just fine. More sarcasm than anything. I obviously dont hope that he keeps fumbling

 

[nashman]

nice post joeshmoe

 

[JeffGollin]

A whole lot of certitude out there - from a bunch of fans; most of who never coached a football team.

Where to start -

First of all, on a 53-man pro roster, whether or not a player is listed over another as a "starter" is in most cases overblown - especially if both players get enough touches.

Second, I doubt Coach Wiz's credibility will take much of a hit were we to do something like win 11 or 12 games or win the Super Bowl - regardless of whether he did or didn't start Beanie over THT.

Third, last time I looked - both RB's fumbled.

Finally, when you arbitrarily declare that one RB will be the starter and the other will be the backup - you immediately take away some of the flexiblity a HC or OC can use to best execute his game plan. (i.e. "You play to win the game" - and, depending on down, distance and circumstance, a coach should base his personnel decision on who he's most likely to succeed with at any given point in the contest). To that end, putting a RB (or any other player) on the field simply because he has a higher position on the depth chart is crazy, so why make so big a deal of this that you'd question the coach's credibility?

There!

 

[Crazy Canuck]

A whole lot of certitude out there - from a bunch of fans; most of who never coached a football team.

Where to start -

First of all, on a 53-man pro roster, whether or not a player is listed over another as a "starter" is in most cases overblown - especially if both players get enough touches.

Second, I doubt Coach Wiz's credibility will take much of a hit were we to do something like win 11 or 12 games or win the Super Bowl - regardless of whether he did or didn't start Beanie over THT.

Third, last time I looked - both RB's fumbled.

Finally, when you arbitrarily declare that one RB will be the starter and the other will be the backup - you immediately take away some of the flexiblity a HC or OC can use to best execute his game plan. (i.e. "You play to win the game" - and, depending on down, distance and circumstance, a coach should base his personnel decision on who he's most likely to succeed with at any given point in the contest). To that end, putting a RB (or any other player) on the field simply because he has a higher position on the depth chart is crazy, so why make so big a deal of this that you'd question the coach's credibility?

There!

Thank you...

 

[Stout]

I don't buy the whole set the tone argument you keep bringing up. If that's setting the tone then I hope he keeps it up(see dominating performances @ Giants and home against Minny) where he "set the tone" as you say. I'll take those outcomes all day long. Timmy didn't make or cause 4 other fumbles or two int's because he fumbled early. No way no how!

Fumbles in the 1st qtr are no more harmful than one in the 2nd 3rd or 4th.

Really? You want to quote the Minny game IN FAVOR of Hightower and defending his fumbles? A retraction would probably be a good idea, because that just makes my point.

Setting the tone is setting the tone, whether you say tone or momentum or punces to the gut. We can OVERCOME those mistakes sometimes and do well IN SPITE OF bad mistakes lately on Timmy's part, but that is not something you wish to do very often. In spite of what you think or say on here, Timmy losing fumbles early in games is unacceptable. The majority of the fans agree, but most importantly the COACH agrees. You know, the In Whis We Trust coach.

I don't care what they do on the depth chart, or who they label what. I certainly don't want THT just riding the pine for the rest of the season. I just don't get the defense of what he's done recently in turning it over early in games. It is INDEFENSIBLE.

 

[Shane]

Really? You want to quote the Minny game IN FAVOR of Hightower and defending his fumbles? A retraction would probably be a good idea, because that just makes my point.

Setting the tone is setting the tone, whether you say tone or momentum or punces to the gut. We can OVERCOME those mistakes sometimes and do well IN SPITE OF bad mistakes lately on Timmy's part, but that is not something you wish to do very often. In spite of what you think or say on here, Timmy losing fumbles early in games is unacceptable. The majority of the fans agree, but most importantly the COACH agrees. You know, the In Whis We Trust coach.

I don't care what they do on the depth chart, or who they label what. I certainly don't want THT just riding the pine for the rest of the season. I just don't get the defense of what he's done recently in turning it over early in games. It is INDEFENSIBLE.

Where has anyone defended his fumbling? All me or any others have said quite clearly that if you are calling for timmy to be benchd for laying the ball on the carpet your a hypocrite. Considering Beanie is even worse at holding on to the rock.

 

[lauraw]

MrShane, Is Bruce Allen a good hire for the DeadSkins? Which Coach is he going to be able to attract to DC?

 

[BigDavis75]

Where has anyone defended his fumbling? All me or any others have said quite clearly that if you are calling for timmy to be benchd for laying the ball on the carpet your a hypocrite. Considering Beanie is even worse at holding on to the rock.

Hightower has more fumbles in less carries and twice as many fumbles lost. If you go by total touches though Hightower is slightly slightly better but Hightower has absolutely been worse lately at holding onto the ball.