Holliday & Emmit update per Jurecki!

[Indiana Hoosier]

Absolutley sign Holliday, no way that kind of money for Smith. I may be wrong but the only thing that Smith can bring now, is a few more fans at SDS. No, way can he beat out Shipp.

 

[MAKTEN]

This isn't a Shipp thread, but since I started it....

Originally posted by kerouac9
Whoa, boys. Let's settle down here a little bit. 1300-1500 yards? Marcel Shipp? Let's look at it this way: the full list of rushers who went over 1300 yds last season are as follows:

RNK NAME ATT YDS
1 R. Williams, MIA 383 1853
2 L. Tomlinson, SD 372 1683
3 Priest Holmes, KC 313 1615
4 C. Portis, DEN 273 1508
5 Travis Henry, BUF 325 1438
6 D. McAllister, NO 325 1388
7 Tiki Barber, NYG 304 1387
8 Jamal Lewis, BAL 308 1327
9 Fred Taylor, JAC 287 1314
10 Corey Dillon, CIN 314 1311

Shipp's a nice back. A good player. But he is none of these guys. Shipp is a good back. These guys are great ones. Backs that failed to make the list were Ahman Green, Shaun Alexander, Curtis Martin, Edge James, Charlie Garner, and M. Faulk. Marcel isn't anywhere near this caliber of running back, and never will be. Shipp should count himself lucky to have a carreer like James Stewart. That's the kind of back he is. A great year for him would be 1100 yards, but I suspect he'll probably average more like 850-900 a season.

To have a 1300 yard season, Marcel would have to average 82 yards a game. No way.

I think that Shipp could scrap for at lest close to 1300 if he is the "feature" back in our system next year. He is a good runner, he proved that last year. 82 yards a game is really not that much when you think about the amount of carries he could get coupled with his ability. Now maybe it is a little over zealous to say that 1300 - 1500 is possible, however I would say that 1600+ all purpose yards is attainable. He is a very solid receiver too. Anyway, this is for another thread but I thought I'd respond to your post....

 

[kerouac9]

I don't know if anyone looked, but Michael Bidwill said at the unveiling for the new stadium design that they were "looking to sign our new starting running back." Isn't the starter up to the coach?

Anyway, Shipp and Smith are probably about the same level of ability right now, but Shipp is on the upswing and Emmitt's headed south.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

kerouac, i truly appreciate your thoughts on shipp. i agree whole-heartedly. i think we're gonna be lucky if he nets 1100. he's a plugger, not a franchise back. i respect his ability and think he's above average, but he doesn't belong in the category with the other mentioned backs. i will be pleasantly stunned if i'm proven wrong.

 

[CardinalChris]

Originally posted by PHXSPORTS4LIFE
kerouac, i truly appreciate your thoughts on shipp. i agree whole-heartedly. i think we're gonna be lucky if he nets 1100. he's a plugger, not a franchise back. i respect his ability and think he's above average, but he doesn't belong in the category with the other mentioned backs. i will be pleasantly stunned if i'm proven wrong.

He is easily the back Henry is. I watch the guy and he could run fo 1300 easily. By "plugger" do you mean he always gets positive yards? The guy is shifty and sneaky. A lot of good backs get more yards than the guys with the computer numbers because they make the first one miss. Quickness is more vital than speed.

 

[DevonCardsFan]

Adding Holliday would be nice, but damn we need some Pass Rushing, I wonder if any pass rushers will be available June 1st.

 

[kerouac9]

Originally posted by CardinalChris
He is easily the back Henry is. I watch the guy and he could run fo 1300 easily. By "plugger" do you mean he always gets positive yards? The guy is shifty and sneaky. A lot of good backs get more yards than the guys with the computer numbers because they make the first one miss. Quickness is more vital than speed.

I hope you're joking. Henry is the more talented back, but he had the double-edged sword of being in a pass-wacky offense, and on a team without a D. He did have more yards than anyone in the NFC, in a division with stout Ds (Pats, Fins, & Jets)

I think that by "plugger" it means that he fills a hole on a team, as opposed to a franchise back, which you can build a team around.

Shipp is sneaky (whatever that means) and shifty, but he's not a player that an offense can hitch his wagon to. If that's what Sully plans to do, it will be a long season for the Defense, indeed, what with all the three and outs.

Again, I'm not saying that Shipp's a bad back. I just think of him more like James Stewart, who isn't anything special, but succeeds in spite of his level of talent. How many times have the Lions tried to replace him, only to have him cling to the starting job year after year. If he gets 1150 yards or more in one season over the next three years, that'll be a heck of an accomplishment for him, but he'll never, ever go over 1300 yards.

That being said, I'd love for him to post this in his locker and prove me wrong.

 

[CardinalChris]

Travis Henry? He is not a dominant back. He has the same knocks Shipp does. I hate ot do the old arguement "If SHipp played in an offense like Buffalo", but part of the reason he had some SERIOUS running room is you have to cover two pro bowlers in Price and Moulds. Henry is a back you can win with, just like Shipp. But he is not a dominant back that win just on his talent. A lot of that is the talent around him. He lacks the "top gear" that Shipp does. VERY FEW backs are dominant game changers. Just like pass rushers. To me YPC is a huge indicator and Shipps was pretty good for playing with equivilent of Vanderbilt's passing game.

 

[CardinalChris]

I agree though, I hope Shipp erases all doubts!!!

 

[kerouac9]

To, I wouldn't want to hitch my wagon to T. Henry, either, but I still think that Henry is the better back between him and Shipp. He's the only borderline back on that list though, and anyone who compares Shipp favorably to the other backs that rushed for 1300 yds or more last season is drinking too much Electric Cardinal Kool-Aid.

 

[JeffGollin]

As long as they keep Emmitt's signing bonus low I could care less how much salary they give him. I seriously doubt he will make it all three years
The man is right. Besides - If Emmitt can make it all three years, it will be because the Cards feel he's worth it.

Final point - From a pure cash point of view - If it costs the Cards $3 - 4 mil in Year One and he generates $4 - 5 million worth of incremental ticket sales next year, that's a pretty good investment.

The only misgiving anyone should have is about whether the cap hit is too steep or he were to bump a really good player off the roster.

 

[JasonKGME]

Originally posted by kerouac9
Whoa, boys. Let's settle down here a little bit. 1300-1500 yards? Marcel Shipp? Let's look at it this way: the full list of rushers who went over 1300 yds last season are as follows:

RNK NAME ATT YDS
1 R. Williams, MIA 383 1853
2 L. Tomlinson, SD 372 1683
3 Priest Holmes, KC 313 1615
4 C. Portis, DEN 273 1508
5 Travis Henry, BUF 325 1438
6 D. McAllister, NO 325 1388
7 Tiki Barber, NYG 304 1387
8 Jamal Lewis, BAL 308 1327
9 Fred Taylor, JAC 287 1314
10 Corey Dillon, CIN 314 1311

Shipp's a nice back. A good player. But he is none of these guys. Shipp is a good back. These guys are great ones. Backs that failed to make the list were Ahman Green, Shaun Alexander, Curtis Martin, Edge James, Charlie Garner, and M. Faulk. Marcel isn't anywhere near this caliber of running back, and never will be. Shipp should count himself lucky to have a carreer like James Stewart. That's the kind of back he is. A great year for him would be 1100 yards, but I suspect he'll probably average more like 850-900 a season.

To have a 1300 yard season, Marcel would have to average 82 yards a game. No way.

Do some totalling there buddy.

The Average # of carries the top 10 backs got was 320 carries. Shipp had 188 attacks avg 4.4yds/att. So figure 320 carries and he ends up with 1408 yards. Even dropping his avg with the extra carries to 4.2/att he ends up with 1344, he would have to in the other 132 attacks have averaged less then 3.5yds/att to have ended up with less then 1300 yards.

 

[kerouac9]

I'm not saying look at the numbers or per-carry average. I'm saying look at the players that posted those numbers. Those are franchise backs, except for Henry. Is there anyone on that list that, if healthy, you wouldn't rather have instead of Shipp at this moment?

I still maintain that Shipp's stats are inflated because he saw a lot of carries in "garbage time" during blowouts when D's had five or six DBs on the field to protect against the long ball. Too many of his runs were for short yardage, with one big run to keep the numbers reasonable. I did a breakdown of Marcel's stats a month or two ago.

Shipp's a fine back, as long as you don't design the offense around him. I will go on record as saying that he'll never, ever go over 1300 yards in a season.

 

[CardinalChris]

RIGHT ON!!! Go out on a limb... people without opinoions are boring!!

 

[Lars the Red]

Originally posted by JasonKGME
Do some totalling there buddy.

The Average # of carries the top 10 backs got was 320 carries. Shipp had 188 attacks avg 4.4yds/att. So figure 320 carries and he ends up with 1408 yards. Even dropping his avg with the extra carries to 4.2/att he ends up with 1344, he would have to in the other 132 attacks have averaged less then 3.5yds/att to have ended up with less then 1300 yards.

On these rare occasions that we agree Jason, I think it's important to point them out. Bullseye.

Shipp was solid as a rock during the season. If he gets the touches, stays healthy and we aren't playing from 21 point deficits, he can easily be a 1300+ yard back. He's not a game breaker, but he's extremely consistant in regards to positive yards. With a healthy O-Line and an offense that doesn't turn the ball over on a regular basis, he's the kind of guy that can wear you out.

You didn't even mention the new load that will be leading him into the line.

 

[azdeftone]

If the cards pay smith that much it would be a crime!!! No one else even wants the guy why in hell would you offer that kind of money I hope this is just a rumor. If we sign him it had better not be more than like 1mil a year and incentives if performs well. Otherwise this would be an assinine signing considering all the other areas we actually need help or depth. I feel pretty secure with shipp getting the majority and anderson and scobey and prentice backing up.

 

[kerouac9]

Originally posted by Lars the Red
On these rare occasions that we agree Jason, I think it's important to point them out. Bullseye.

Shipp was solid as a rock during the season. If he gets the touches, stays healthy and we aren't playing from 21 point deficits, he can easily be a 1300+ yard back. He's not a game breaker, but he's extremely consistant in regards to positive yards. With a healthy O-Line and an offense that doesn't turn the ball over on a regular basis, he's the kind of guy that can wear you out.

You didn't even mention the new load that will be leading him into the line.

So, you're saying that Marcel Shipp is as good or a better back than Ricky Williams, Ladanian Tomlinson (neither of them had a passing game [excuses, excuses]), Priest Holmes, Clinton Portis, Deuce McAllister, Tiki Barber, Jamal Lewis, Fred Taylor, and Corey Dillion, and that he'll have a better season than at least five of them in the next, say, two years.

If that's what you're saying (which is what it sounds like), go on record and say just that. If you can, in all seriousness, well, you're a very, very deluded Cards fan.

 

[Cardinals.Ken]

Originally posted by kerouac9
If that's what you're saying (which is what it sounds like), go on record and say just that. If you can, in all seriousness, well, you're a very, very deluded Cards fan.

Please allow me to state this for the record:

ALL CARDINALS FANS ARE DILUDED! (including myself)

It's par for the course when you support longtime losing franchises such as ours.

Personally, Shipp is a better back than Emmitt at this point HANDS DOWN...at least in my opinion.

Is Shipp a top 10 back? No.

Will he perform better than Emmitt? Yes.

Is Emmitt worth $3 million a year and an automatic starting nod? HELL NO!

 

[Lars the Red]

Originally posted by kerouac9
So, you're saying that Marcel Shipp is as good or a better back than Ricky Williams, Ladanian Tomlinson (neither of them had a passing game [excuses, excuses]), Priest Holmes, Clinton Portis, Deuce McAllister, Tiki Barber, Jamal Lewis, Fred Taylor, and Corey Dillion, and that he'll have a better season than at least five of them in the next, say, two years.

If that's what you're saying (which is what it sounds like), go on record and say just that. If you can, in all seriousness, well, you're a very, very deluded Cards fan.

Wow, you got all that from my comments? Amazing. Is it possible that I gave a scenerio that would allow Shipp to gain 1300+ yards? If Ricky, Priest, or any of the others were in a position to run behind our mammoth line and be lead by one of the best blocking FB in the league, do you thing it impossible that they could rush for 1500+?

For the sake of argument, I could see Shipp having the same type of production of a Barber, Lewis, Taylor, and Tomlinson. None of these guys is a total package that can completely control a game. They all have some weaknesses in their games and have been known to disappear. If Blake can keep defenses honest, and Shipp and the line stay healthy, he can put up top ten numbers. Whether all these things fall into place remains to be seen, but the talent is there to create that type of production.

 

[kerouac9]

Originally posted by Lars the Red
Wow, you got all that from my comments? Amazing. Is it possible that I gave a scenerio that would allow Shipp to gain 1300+ yards? If Ricky, Priest, or any of the others were in a position to run behind our mammoth line and be lead by one of the best blocking FB in the league, do you thing it impossible that they could rush for 1500+?

For the sake of argument, I could see Shipp having the same type of production of a Barber, Lewis, Taylor, and Tomlinson. None of these guys is a total package that can completely control a game. They all have some weaknesses in their games and have been known to disappear. If Blake can keep defenses honest, and Shipp and the line stay healthy, he can put up top ten numbers. Whether all these things fall into place remains to be seen, but the talent is there to create that type of production.

Wow. I can't believe that you just said that. I'm stunned. LT, R. Williams, P. Holmes, J. Lewis, and C. Dillion would run for 2000 yards in one-back sets on our team, if motivated. You're placing way too much emphasis on the importants of Hodgins. He's all right, but one fullback is mostly the same as another. R. Conrad in Miami is as good as (or better than) Hodgins, as was L. Neal in the 'Natti.

Come out and say that Shipp is as good or better than those guys I listed. You can't, because the planets would have to align for Marcel to gain 1200+ on any team. He's a young James Stewart. It's okay to admit it. As soon as you do, you'll be a better person for it.

That being said, Lars, I was more responding to Jason than yourself, who is reading way too much into wildly incomplete stats.

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

Originally posted by Lars the Red
Wow, you got all that from my comments? Amazing. Is it possible that I gave a scenerio that would allow Shipp to gain 1300+ yards? If Ricky, Priest, or any of the others were in a position to run behind our mammoth line and be lead by one of the best blocking FB in the league, do you thing it impossible that they could rush for 1500+?

For the sake of argument, I could see Shipp having the same type of production of a Barber, Lewis, Taylor, and Tomlinson. None of these guys is a total package that can completely control a game. They all have some weaknesses in their games and have been known to disappear. If Blake can keep defenses honest, and Shipp and the line stay healthy, he can put up top ten numbers. Whether all these things fall into place remains to be seen, but the talent is there to create that type of production.

WOW! Lets not get too carried away here. I like Shipp, and in time, he may be, I repeat may be a dominant back, but he is not at this point. You have to remeber, your arguements are full of <b>IF</b> Jeff Blake can, <b>IF</b> Shipp can stay healthy, <b>IF</b> the line stays healthy, etc ...The top 10 backs in the league, while they benefit from solid QB play, can really do it all themselves. Look at Tomlinsons first year, Look at Edge James first year, Look at Ricky Williams year of his cracked ankle -what did he get 900 yards in 8 games or something? He carried that team.

My point is that while i like Shipp, I would not even begin to put him in the same league as these guys, including T.Henry. All of these guys are elite backs that can, and do, take over games. Shipp isnt that guy. I wont go as far to say never get 1300 yards but it would certainly take a lot of IF's for him to do that, while players like Corey Dillion do it year-after-year on bad teams with bad lines, who have no defense.

By the way to say Tomlinson is not a complete back is about as far off base as you can get......

 

[MAKTEN]

I knew it would happen.....

and it did...this is now a Shipp thread.........

 

[X-29Fan]

Originally posted by Cardinals.Ken
Please allow me to state this for the record:

ALL CARDINALS FANS ARE DILUDED! (including myself)

It's par for the course when you support longtime losing franchises such as ours.

Personally, Shipp is a better back than Emmitt at this point HANDS DOWN...at least in my opinion.

Is Shipp a top 10 back? No.

Will he perform better than Emmitt? Yes.

Is Emmitt worth $3 million a year and an automatic starting nod? HELL NO!

Agree across the board.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

also, freddy t., when not injured, may be the most complete back of the bunch. shipp does not compare favorably with either LT or freddy t.

now, mind you, though i'm trying to temper your enthusiasm in shipp (not damper it or force you to lose it, i think shipp is a bright spot on the cards), i think he's a much better and more promising back than emmitt at this stage in their careers. signing emmitt is a stupid pr move.

let me switch gears a bit (back to shipp - sorry), he's shifty, but not really quick or fast. we all know the knock about his not having breakaway speed, that doesn't really concern me. what does concern me is that he doesn't really make defenders miss him. he's got no shake. he's a slasher, kinda like murrell with more power. and, what i meant as a plugger is that he just plugs his way down field. he won't get stopped for a loss often, but he's also not gonna have many spectacular runs. to me, he's ronald moore all over again. no way he ever gets 1300. i'm on kerouac's limb!

finally, i hope they sign vonnie to a sane contract. we could really use him.

doubly finally, draft leftwich.

on the final note, plummer sucked, graves stinks, losing boston without compensation was the dumbest thing ever, my favorite card of all time was ken harvey in his second year, i live in socal, i like the cheerleaders, i hate eagles fans, don't bash my little brother (cheesebeef), i'm not NEM, Bidwill is spelled wrong, lex is wrong, tango is nuts (there, have i covered every possible thread? - WHEEEEEEEEEEEEE!)

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

um, that "i'm on kerouac's limb" statement didn't quite come out right . . .