Holliday & Emmit update per Jurecki!

[kerouac9]

Yeah, that's right...

Ladies: all my limbs are completely un-hindered.

 

[Shane]

Kerouac9

Sorry I plain and simply have to question your eye for talent. First and foremost Shipp is in no way the same type of back as James Stewart. The only comparison that even close to fits is that they can both be bruisers!

I have watched Stewart play many times and he will run right into a crowd no problemo. Shipp on the other hand seems to ALWAYS find the hole when one is available he is MUCH quicker to the hole than I have ever seen James Stewart be! In fact Shipp explodes toward the hole when its there and if its not he uses his blockers and lets the play develop. That is a skill that elite backs have and Shipp while I agree is not an elite back "yet" has that ability and shows it!

Shipps vision is far and away better than Stewarts and he far and away a better Reciever than James Stewart!

You can post all of this bull Like saying that someone says if Shipp gets 1300 yards that they must think hes beter than all of these guys?? THATS CRAP! The other guys are proven and have done it over some time! Howevor Shipps numbers last year are very imopressive as well as his play and if you cannot see that then you are having serious delusions! The guy earned the right to start and showed loads of potential and talent in doing so!

The guy DOES have 1300+ yard ability AND NO THAT DOES NOT MEAN I THINK HES BETTER THAN THE OTHER BACKS YOU MENTIONED!

Granted there are some "ifs" Like satying healthy. But this guy will attain 1300+ yard in this offense if he stays healthy and we can maintain at least a decent passing attack! You sayin that this guy will neverbe more than a 800 to 900 yard a year back is just plain silly! The guy last year got over 800 yards in split duty. Oh wait thats right his numbers were inflated :roll:

IMO you are basing your opinion on guesses and not a true eye of what we have seen from this kid on the field!

 

[Lars the Red]

Originally posted by kerouac9
Wow. I can't believe that you just said that. I'm stunned. LT, R. Williams, P. Holmes, J. Lewis, and C. Dillion would run for 2000 yards in one-back sets on our team, if motivated. [QUOTE/]See, this is my point. You agree that a couple of these other backs could put up top 5 all time numbers, yet you don't see Shipp being able to average 81 yards a game. That just doesn't seem to make sense. Do you really see those 5 guys as being HoF caliber backs? Probably not, so that would mean you see them as above average, quality backs. Wouldn't you put Shipp into at least the average catagory? Your saying an above average back could realistically rush for 2000 yards averaging 125 yds a game, behind our line and new FB. Isn't it just as likely that an average back could have 65% of that kind of production?

You're placing way too much emphasis on the importants of Hodgins. He's all right, but one fullback is mostly the same as another. R. Conrad in Miami is as good as (or better than) Hodgins, as was L. Neal in the 'Natti.

I don't think I'm placing too much importance on it since it's only one of several factors I said were necessary for Shipp to have the kind of success I suggested. Faulk seemed to think he was important. You mentioned Conrad, do you see him being a factor in Shipp reaching 1300 yards if he were here?

Come out and say that Shipp is as good or better than those guys I listed.

LT started the year like a house a fire, but faded toward the end of the season. He hasn't proven he can sustain his production for 16 games. Lewis is an anomoly. If he's healthy, he's amazing, but he has had at least 2 severe knee injuries and when starts to get hit, he starts to run scared. Ricky could be a guy that sets a ton of records, and Holmes needs to show he can do this for more than a year or two to be considered great. I wouldn't, however, put Shipp in those guys league. Dillion can be totally dominating, but his head and heart aren't always in the game. He is also out of Shipps league.

You can't, because the planets would have to align for Marcel to gain 1200+ on any team. He's a young James Stewart. It's okay to admit it. As soon as you do, you'll be a better person for it.

I really don't need to admit anything. My post was fairly easy to understand. I stated very clearly that if certain things happened during next season, Shipp could produce top 10 numbers. I think you are needing to take a closer look at the qualities that each of the backs we've been talking about brings to the table. Shipp isn't going to scream by defenders like Ricky, but he has a better knack for picking up a couple of yards sliding into a pile than anyone else. He won't be anyone's dance champion, but he can make people miss. I didn't say Shipp was one of the best backs in the league, I said he could, if a few things come together, put up top 10 numbers.

 

[kerouac9]

I'm really surprised that Marcel inspires such passion in you guys. That being said, let me respond.

Shane: I'm not saying that Marcel plays like James Stewart, I'm saying that he'll probably have a career like James Stewart, where he's always fighting for the starting job, but just keeps hold of it and gaining yards, despite his talent and what his coaches, etc. think about him.

I'm not saying that if someone thinks that Marcel can gain 1300-1500 yards, they have to say that he's better than the people I listed, I merely said that I'm daring anyone to go on record saying that sometime in the next two years, Marcel will post better rushing numbers than 50% of those players that I listed. It's my contention that Marcel isn't in the same class as any of those players, who are franchise backs that make an offense run. My contention is that Marcel is a "second-tier" running back, like Jerome Bettis (now), Eddie George (now), Deuce Staley, and, yes, James Stewart. These are players that complement an offense, but aren't at the heart of the game plan.

I still maintain the Marcel's stats were inflated by a ton of 'junk time' carries, and could not produce in games where he was the focal point of the offense (Seattle, KC). I think that I've gone on record as saying that Marcel will have a great year if he gains 1100 yds, but he'll never meet the production of these people.

Lars: No, Marshall didn't care whether or not Hodgins was there. He doesn't really care about anything, but his stats. I'm sure he'll gain 1300 yds again this season. He'd gain 1300 yds with Joel as his FB, because they have so many 1-back sets.

So what you're saying is that you won't go on record saying that Marcel can compete with those backs. Why can't you just say it?

 

[Shane]

Ill go on record right now! Not in two years!

Like we said there are always variables such as injuries. But you heard it right here first. IF Shipp stays healthy and we do not sign Emmitt Smith he will attain 1300 yards this season!

And yes with such stats he will be in that 50% majority you are talking about!

 

[john h]

Originally posted by Zeno
Holliday is better than any DE we currently have on the roster although I don't think he brings the pass rush that the team really needs, but I think his signing would be a good one because it would mark improvement.

As for Smith...I still go on record as saying I don't want him signed and don't feel he fills a need position on the team. I will cheer for him if he is here but I think the money could be spent more wisely eslewhere(like WR's or Center).

Zeno: give Bill Bidwill and Michael your thoughts about Smith. They are the driving force here and I doubt anyone can change their minds except Smith himself.

 

[AZCardsWin]

Has anyone heard any updates about Emmitt or Holliday today? News seems quiet tonight.....

Go Cards/ America!
Tim

 

[pinnacle]

azcardswin:

quite today because the cardinals did not sign anyone..and the main source of cardinals rumors here in phoenix is mike jurecki - who was ill today and not on the air.. local sports talk was dominated by ncaa basketball tournament - cards were barely mentioned when I was listening..

 

[john h]

Originally posted by kerouac9
Whoa, boys. Let's settle down here a little bit. 1300-1500 yards? Marcel Shipp? Let's look at it this way: the full list of rushers who went over 1300 yds last season are as follows:

RNK NAME ATT YDS
1 R. Williams, MIA 383 1853
2 L. Tomlinson, SD 372 1683
3 Priest Holmes, KC 313 1615
4 C. Portis, DEN 273 1508
5 Travis Henry, BUF 325 1438
6 D. McAllister, NO 325 1388
7 Tiki Barber, NYG 304 1387
8 Jamal Lewis, BAL 308 1327
9 Fred Taylor, JAC 287 1314
10 Corey Dillon, CIN 314 1311

Shipp's a nice back. A good player. But he is none of these guys. Shipp is a good back. These guys are great ones. Backs that failed to make the list were Ahman Green, Shaun Alexander, Curtis Martin, Edge James, Charlie Garner, and M. Faulk. Marcel isn't anywhere near this caliber of running back, and never will be. Shipp should count himself lucky to have a carreer like James Stewart. That's the kind of back he is. A great year for him would be 1100 yards, but I suspect he'll probably average more like 850-900 a season.


To have a 1300 yard season, Marcel would have to average 82 yards a game. No way.

Kerouac: I think you are correct in your assessment. Shipp had a decent 1st year playing about half the time. This is a long way from being a consistent NFL premier runner. He may be and he may not. We are to quick to label people beyond what the facts really show. We made Jake the next Joe Montana and we do not need to label Shipp as the next Emmitt Smith. A couple of seasons and we will know what re really have. Meantime you always need at least two RB. Smith could nicely fill in a second RB position. You never know he might be the #1 RB before this plays out.

 

[red desert]

Originally posted by Shane H
Ill go on record right now! Not in two years!

Like we said there are always variables such as injuries. But you heard it right here first. IF Shipp stays healthy and we do not sign Emmitt Smith he will attain 1300 yards this season!

And yes with such stats he will be in that 50% majority you are talking about!

I have been saying exactly this dince the end of last season. Shipp has the goods to succeed in this league - period!

 

[JeffGollin]

Shipp has the goods to succeed in this league - period.
But if he gets injured, we're back to Damien Anderson or Travis Prentice (good potential but far from proven). At the very least, Emmitt gives us quality depth at RB.

And if Shipp can learn from Emmitt, then he'll even have better goods to succeed in the league - exclamation point!

With regard to the money we supposedly would be paying Emmitt, my only concern would be if it drained the cap pool and prevented us from signing another quality player. But from what I see out there, it wouldn't surprise me if we wound up at the end of free agency with a cap surplus and nobody decent to spend it on anyway.

Other than that - why should anyone give a rat's damn about what they're paying Emmitt (unless of course the money otherwise might be paid to them)?

 

[kerouac9]

I'm sorry, but there's no evidence there to show that Marcel Shipp is a top-notch quality RB in the NFL. First: he gets injured. Second: He doesn't scare anybody. You people who are saying that Marcel is on par with LT, R. Williams, Edge, Marshall, Jams Lewis, Freddy T., or Dillion are just setting yourselves up to be disappointed. There's no way even he'd admit to having that kind of upside. He's a fine complementary back, and that's all. If the Cards hitch their O to Shipp, it's going to be a three-win season. He can't stand up to the punishment, and he can't move the chains.

 

[Shane]

Originally posted by kerouac9
I'm sorry, but there's no evidence there to show that Marcel Shipp is a top-notch quality RB in the NFL. First: he gets injured. Second: He doesn't scare anybody. You people who are saying that Marcel is on par with LT, R. Williams, Edge, Marshall, Jams Lewis, Freddy T., or Dillion are just setting yourselves up to be disappointed. There's no way even he'd admit to having that kind of upside. He's a fine complementary back, and that's all. If the Cards hitch their O to Shipp, it's going to be a three-win season. He can't stand up to the punishment, and he can't move the chains.

First off this whole statement is idiotic!

You absolutley have nothing to base this absurd paragraph on other than your own opinion! Cant move the chains :roll: Cant stand up to the punishment :roll:

 

[kerouac9]

Hey, Marcel went down with injury for a couple weeks early in the season in spot duty. I'd hate to design my offense around someone that you can't depend on being there week in andn week out.

Again, I still say he can't consistently move the chains. Remember in the last 1/4 of the season, when the KC game was supposed to be his national coming out party, where he was all set to gain 150 yards on the ground, and all the fantasy wires were burning with buzz about him? What's he do in the face of that scrutiny? Disappear. What about the Raider game? Where was he then? Or the Bronco game?

I've never really understood a lot of people's love for Marcel Shipp, especially in the Valley. He's a decent back, but you have to admit you'd rather have any of the backs that I listed than him, including Freddy T.

 

[SECTION 11]

Didn't Shipp put up 135 yards on 8.4 yards a pop on Oakland?

 

[SECTION 11]

The only other thing I would add is that he missed all of two practices and one game despite sprained knee ligaments.

 

[Shane]

Originally posted by kerouac9
Hey, Marcel went down with injury for a couple weeks early in the season in spot duty. I'd hate to design my offense around someone that you can't depend on being there week in andn week out.

Again, I still say he can't consistently move the chains. Remember in the last 1/4 of the season, when the KC game was supposed to be his national coming out party, where he was all set to gain 150 yards on the ground, and all the fantasy wires were burning with buzz about him? What's he do in the face of that scrutiny? Disappear. What about the Raider game? Where was he then? Or the Bronco game?

I've never really understood a lot of people's love for Marcel Shipp, especially in the Valley. He's a decent back, but you have to admit you'd rather have any of the backs that I listed than him, including Freddy T.

Boy you really must not pay attention! First off injuries are a freak thing much like twisting a knee which Marcell did! He played through that knee injury for the rest of the Giants game and finished with 92 yards on 17 carries a 5.4 yard avg. pretty impressive for being injured and not at full speed!

He missied the next game on a coaches decision he stated that he was ready to go and could play! So I guess because Emmitt missed two games one year he must be "prone" to injury to huh :roll:

Secondly his raider game are you kidding??? How about 16 carries and 135 yards for an 8.6 yard average??? Dont say garbage time either because much of that was in the first half which acttually kept us in the game??? You might wanna think before you post!

You also mentioned ahile back about the second seattle game? How about 16 carries for 85 yards and a 5.3 yard average?

About the only game you have any legit argument is the denver one where he had 14 carries for like 26 yards. Sorry but last I checked you look at a RB over the whole and one game does not a season or career make! Just prior to that he rushed against a good SF defense for the tune of 20 carries and 84 yards another stellar 4.2 yard average!

You argument just doesnt give! Its purely opinion and none of it based on what he has done on the football field!

 

[kerouac9]

No one has anything to say against his outing against the worst run D in the game in KC?

Marcel is a fine back, second-tier. He was a non-factor in the Raiders game, and got a lot of "junk" carries against a team that was defending against a comeback. That's all there is to it.

The SF D was one of the worst among playoff teams, and they couldn't stop anyone on 3rd down.

No one says anything when I bring up the premier backs. Marcel just isn't in that class and never will be.

 

[Shane]

Originally posted by kerouac9
No one has anything to say against his outing against the worst run D in the game in KC?

Marcel is a fine back, second-tier. He was a non-factor in the Raiders game, and got a lot of "junk" carries against a team that was defending against a comeback. That's all there is to it.

The SF D was one of the worst among playoff teams, and they couldn't stop anyone on 3rd down.

No one says anything when I bring up the premier backs. Marcel just isn't in that class and never will be.

You know what your just a MORON and thats all there is to it!

You dont have a clue what you are talking about and it clearly shows! Raider game garbage time??? You obviously did not watch the game!



Nobody cares about the other elite backs they arent the argument here and we dont have them on this team so its a moot point!

 

[Duckjake]

Shipp on the other hand seems to ALWAYS find the hole when one is available he is MUCH quicker to the hole than I have ever seen James Stewart be! In fact Shipp explodes toward the hole when its there and if its not he uses his blockers and lets the play develop. That is a skill that elite backs have and Shipp while I agree is not an elite back "yet" has that ability and shows it!

That is the best description of Shipp's talent that I have seen. JasonKGME and I were commenting on that very thing at the Lions game last year when Marcel kept making the right cut at the right time to the proper side to best utilize his blockers. It was like he had eyes looking out the ear holes of his helmet.

I like him. Anyone who could gain any yards with the WR's the Cards started the last 6 games is ok in my book. Stump Mitchell didn't do too bad as a Cardinal and MShipp should do as well.

As for signing Smith, why not? They have the cap room and one thing we all have been asking for is more Cardinal fans at SDS and it would sure do that.

 

[ajcardfan]

These Smith-Shipp threads are filling the void left by the old Plummer debates! I agree with Duckjake. I think there is room for both on the roster. And, both will give something to the team. Shipp -- young talent with a bright future. Smith -- star power today.

 

[kerouac9]

Apologia

I suppose I was the one that turned this into a Shipp thread, rather than an Emmitt/Shipp thread, and now I've turned this monster onto myself. Allow me to explain before I'm insulted any more.

What I originally objected to was someone said that as a starter, on this team, Marcel Shipp would rush for 1300-1500 yards. That would put him solidly in the elite class of rushers, Shane H. My response was that Marcel, while a solid back, doesn't have the game to put up those kind of numbers. He can be a solid, 1000 yd back year in and year out, but my contention was the he'd never be able to put up 1300 in a season, much less 1500.

I still hold by that estimation. He's a back with the potential to be like James Stewart, solidly in the second-tier of backs. That's where vision and shiftyness gets you. Pure, god-giving speed, toughness, and ability get you into the elite realm of backs, and, while I would be pleasantly surprised if I was shown differently, Marcel lacks those talents.

Perhaps I've become a little negative in the defense of my opinions. I realize that Marcel is our starter, and is probably the best back on our roster. I hope he runs for 2000 yards this season. He's no stiff.

I'm just saying that to say he'll run for 1300-1500 yards is silly.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

kerouac, i still gots yo back on this. your last post was exactly correct. we're not saying shipp is a stiff. in fact, i still think he's one of the bright spots on this team, but y'all are fitting him for a pro bowl jersey and i just don't think he'll be there this year, and don't think he'll ever be a perennial 1,300 yard back. y'all's expectations are waaaay too high.

 

[ChiCard]

Smith and Shipp can co-exsist as long as Smith is not the starter. Making Shipp take a back seat will hurt his career. I see Smith as a form of "shock troop". When the running games going strong and Shipp needs a blow you go to Smith. If they have plans to do it the other way around, don't sign him.

 

[ajcardfan]

Remember Ron Moore? I saw him carry two Giants into the endzone from the five the year he got a 1,000yds for us. How many thought we had a great back then?

Point? Never count on a guy with limited experience if you don't have to. I believe Shipp will be a top back in the NFL, but that doesn't mean the FO should bet on it.