Holt, Ross, Cooper Cut

[ItsInTheCards]

I think if you said this kid can play IN PRESEASON, I would have to agree. As for regular season games he made very little impact if any at all. 22nd leading tackler on the team, 0 sacks, 0 Tackles for loss, 0 FF's, 0 FR's, 0 passes defensed, 0 QB pressures, and 1 QB hit. Does not tell the story of a guy that can rush the passer. The over 300 pound NT who was injured for half the season, Branch was at least able to get 3 QB hits to his name, which says a lot about Coopers lack of production. When you add up the pass rush stats of sacks, QB hits, and QB pressures Cooper is 13th on the list. You can find a UDFA that can do the same amount of production as that.

not to mention that the "kid" will be 31 years old by the time the 2008 season is over.

I was excited by his production during the preaseason, but he didnt show up at all during games.....youre absolutely right that they could've gotten a guy undrafted that could've filled in ok

 

[abomb]

Why wait til Sunday?!

Lent.

 

[Mulli]

Maybe a 12th rounder.

That might take a little more.

 

[BACH]

So, if I understand correctly by Joe's spread sheet, Holt saves 3.5 mil, Ross 2.8 mil. (or is the bonus a roster bonus) and 900K for Cooper. That is 7.2 mil. plus what we save on Berry's restructure. So did we possibly cut 10 mil. off the cap with these moves??????

No.

The bonus portion of the cap charge still counts against the cap, while the base salary is a direct saving. So cutting these 3 player saves $5M.

Graves can decide to spread the bonus portion out over this season and next, and cutting e.g. Holt would under that scenario save 3,75M this season, and result in a 750k cap hit next season.

I'm sure Joe can correct me, if I'm wrong

 

[Matt L]

How long until the obligatory interview from Holt where he blasts the way that the Cardinals FO does business? couple weeks? Months?

 

[az1965]

Why would they cut cooper?`

Because he really was a preseason champion who rarely contributed during season.

I agree. Good moves.

 

[CardLogic]

How long until the obligatory interview from Holt where he blasts the way that the Cardinals FO does business? couple weeks? Months?

Considering how he conducted "his business" last season, Holt has got no room to talk!

 

[red desert]

Joe -

I expect a heck of a lot more posts from you on this thread. Step it up young man.

Exactly what cap relief are we getting with these cuts?

 

[imaCafan]

I understood that Holt's bonus was a roster bonus, hence it will not be paid (he ain't on the roster) so 3.5 savings there. Ross has a salary of 2.8, and a bonus of 700K, so 2.8 savings on him, 700K dead money to cap. Cooper is all salary, 900K savings. Total = 7.2 million in savings...............right, Joe????

 

[ajcardfan]

I understood that Holt's bonus was a roster bonus, hence it will not be paid (he ain't on the roster) so 3.5 savings there. Ross has a salary of 2.8, and a bonus of 700K, so 2.8 savings on him, 700K dead money to cap. Cooper is all salary, 900K savings. Total = 7.2 million in savings...............right, Joe????

That's how I add it up.

We can't know everything though. I can't see where these cuts had to be made to cover the RFA tenders. But at least it looks like we're being aggressive in case we get the chance to sign someone we like.

 

[imaCafan]

Determing a team's cap situation can be as difficult as picking up a slippery watermelon seed. Just when you think you have it in your grasp, it slips away.
http://www.azcentral.com/members/Blog/KentSomers/17666

From Somers blob:

The Cardinals entered this free agency period with $30 million or so in space. But that was always a flimsy number because they had only 35 or so players under contract, and it didn't count Larry Fitzgerald's new $16 million cap number or Karlos Dansby's $8.065 million.

But it works the other way, too. The team could easily clear addition space. That was made obvious yesterday when defensive end Bertrand Berry agreed to a pay cut. That likely save the team $3 million or so in cap room.

The club could also create space by releasing players. Safety Terence Holt, who is unlikely to return, has a cap figure of $3.5 million. The club could save about $2.8 million by releasing tackle Oliver Ross.

Combine those figures with Berry's number, and you would have a cap savings of around $9 million.

 

[Stout]

Excellent, excellent moves. Just as he deserved kudos for the Berry re-structure, we can now growl at Graves for the awful signing of Ross, and the even worse signing of Holt (what a colossal waste). Cooper was just a roster holder. He wasn't a starter, and he wasn't a young guy you could groom to start or be a good stand-in starter. No need for him on the roster.

 

[Duckjake]

Excellent, excellent moves. Just as he deserved kudos for the Berry re-structure, we can now growl at Graves for the awful signing of Ross, and the even worse signing of Holt (what a colossal waste). Cooper was just a roster holder. He wasn't a starter, and he wasn't a young guy you could groom to start or be a good stand-in starter. No need for him on the roster.

And to think that less than a year ago there was a 9 page thread with the vast majority of posts saying what a good move signing Holt was. Shows you what we know.

 

[Matt L]

And to think that less than a year ago there was a 9 page thread with the vast majority of posts saying what a good move signing Holt was. Shows you what we know.

I'm sure that there is a thread somewhere that outlines all the things that Oliver Ross brings to the table as well.

 

[Totally_Red]

And to think that less than a year ago there was a 9 page thread with the vast majority of posts saying what a good move signing Holt was. Shows you what we know.

Got blasted for being a skeptic on Holt. OTOH, Gandy turned out to be a plus.

 

[DaisyCutter]

I'm sure that there is a thread somewhere that outlines all the things that Oliver Ross brings to the table as well.

Actually, I went looking for those things. I think that we are all disappointed in Ross outside of what the team's expectations were. We projected on Ross everything we wanted--nasty streak, great run blocker, etc., etc.--but he was never any of those things. He was a late-round pick that was on three teams in five years. When I looked back to a thread right after he was signed, they talked about how he was a guy like Bertrand Berry--who was hungry to stay in the NFL and was a hard, gritty worker.

But he was signed to a 5-year, $17 million contract. That's a ton of money to you and me, but it's not much for a free agent OT from a 15-1 football team. Ross was a bad signing, and he wasn't as good as the guy he replaced (L.J. Shelton), but I don't think that he's been the disaster that many of us have believed for so long. Had the Cards only invested a draft pick on some competition for the guy, I think he could have worked out better.

 

[Mitch]

not to mention that the "kid" will be 31 years old by the time the 2008 season is over.

I was excited by his production during the preaseason, but he didnt show up at all during games.....youre absolutely right that they could've gotten a guy undrafted that could've filled in ok

Cooper hardly played at all this past season, as Dockett and Smith were rarely taken out of the games.

Two years ago, he gave the team a real lift off the bench...21 tackles and 2 sacks and always seemed to be pressuring well up the middle, the way he did this past pre-season.

It was surprising that he didn't get more playing time this year, particularly after the pre=season he had...he rarely played even in the first few games following that pre-season effort.

 

[Stout]

Actually, I went looking for those things. I think that we are all disappointed in Ross outside of what the team's expectations were. We projected on Ross everything we wanted--nasty streak, great run blocker, etc., etc.--but he was never any of those things. He was a late-round pick that was on three teams in five years. When I looked back to a thread right after he was signed, they talked about how he was a guy like Bertrand Berry--who was hungry to stay in the NFL and was a hard, gritty worker.

But he was signed to a 5-year, $17 million contract. That's a ton of money to you and me, but it's not much for a free agent OT from a 15-1 football team. Ross was a bad signing, and he wasn't as good as the guy he replaced (L.J. Shelton), but I don't think that he's been the disaster that many of us have believed for so long. Had the Cards only invested a draft pick on some competition for the guy, I think he could have worked out better.

But he WAS a disaster, Daisy, because RG sold him as an answer to one of our big OL problems. Since he busted so badly at that position, it set us back several years in fixing the OL. Who knows what happens if we get a solid player at that position instead of Ross?

 

[BACH]

Excellent, excellent moves. Just as he deserved kudos for the Berry re-structure, we can now growl at Graves for the awful signing of Ross, and the even worse signing of Holt (what a colossal waste). Cooper was just a roster holder. He wasn't a starter, and he wasn't a young guy you could groom to start or be a good stand-in starter. No need for him on the roster.

I wonder that your reaction would have been if Graves had done nothing and not signed Holt.

I'm guessing the same....

 

[football karma]

Actually, I went looking for those things. I think that we are all disappointed in Ross outside of what the team's expectations were. We projected on Ross everything we wanted--nasty streak, great run blocker, etc., etc.--but he was never any of those things. He was a late-round pick that was on three teams in five years. When I looked back to a thread right after he was signed, they talked about how he was a guy like Bertrand Berry--who was hungry to stay in the NFL and was a hard, gritty worker.

But he was signed to a 5-year, $17 million contract. That's a ton of money to you and me, but it's not much for a free agent OT from a 15-1 football team. Ross was a bad signing, and he wasn't as good as the guy he replaced (L.J. Shelton), but I don't think that he's been the disaster that many of us have believed for so long. Had the Cards only invested a draft pick on some competition for the guy, I think he could have worked out better.

I think thats a pretty reasonable analysis

I think after Berry, we were all willing to give Denny the benefit of the doubt on Ross -- an unheralded guy, but the starting OT on a 15 win football team that really could run the ball well.

I also think that after Berry, it only reinforced Denny's belief that he was smarter than the rest of the NFL.

Its also one of the down sides of shopping at the bargain bin -- sure, you may find some really nice stuff, but there is also a reason they are in the bargain bin.

 

[Stout]

I wonder that your reaction would have been if Graves had done nothing and not signed Holt.

I'm guessing the same....

Hey, look, a question that tries to trap you by giving you an equally bad alternative. Sorry, not falling into the trap. It was a huge hole last season, and it was Graves' job to fill it. Not signing anyone or drafting anyone would have been just as bad, but...get this...those weren't the only options. Yeah, your question is simply flawed. I checked back over the old threads, and my reactions to this signing were anger about the contract. It was an idiotic contract and a bad signing. I know a lot of people called for Hamlin. Hmm, that would have actually been a GOOD choice.

So please, don't act like it was sign Holt or sign nobody. Don't try to trap me with nonsense rhetoric.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Cooper hardly played at all this past season, as Dockett and Smith were rarely taken out of the games.

Two years ago, he gave the team a real lift off the bench...21 tackles and 2 sacks and always seemed to be pressuring well up the middle, the way he did this past pre-season.

It was surprising that he didn't get more playing time this year, particularly after the pre=season he had...he rarely played even in the first few games following that pre-season effort.

That was my assessment as well. I wanted him to get more action. If they weren't going to play him, might as well cut him and save salary.

Some team will pick Cooper up.

 

[joeshmo]

It was surprising that he didn't get more playing time this year, particularly after the pre=season he had...he rarely played even in the first few games following that pre-season effort.

That should tell you all you need to know. They were using Blackstock at DE more often then Cooper, that right there should tell you something.

 

[joeshmo]

But he was signed to a 5-year, $17 million contract. That's a ton of money to you and me, but it's not much for a free agent OT from a 15-1 football team. Ross was a bad signing, and he wasn't as good as the guy he replaced (L.J. Shelton), but I don't think that he's been the disaster that many of us have believed for so long. Had the Cards only invested a draft pick on some competition for the guy, I think he could have worked out better.

Actually back in that time before the new CBA that was a very nice sized contract for a RT

 

[RugbyMuffin]

So please, don't act like it was sign Holt or sign nobody. Don't try to trap me with nonsense rhetoric.

But fair is fair Stout.

To sit back and constantly play the hindsight is 20/20 game is a little unfair too. (yes, we all do it I know)

I currently am batting about .500 on the issue.

I admit I thought Holt was a good pick up.

As for Ross, I was happy SOMEONE, was brought in, but had my doubts.

Plus you can pan Graves for signing these players and they suck. But at least, in Holt's situation they signed him to a contract that allowed the Cardinals to ditch him after one season and not recieve a huge cap hit.