Hornets @ Suns Game Thread 11-23-12

[95pro]

maybe bring tucker in earlier. when there was a TO in the first with 5min left, i was sure there was going to be some lineup changes....but none

 

[BC867]

Interesting +/- stats for the game.

STARTERS.............BENCH..........
Dragic.....-10.........Telfair.....+13
Brown.....-14.........Dudley.....+13
Gortat.....-26.........O'Neal......+29
Morris......-6.........Scola.........+9
Beasley...-18........Tucker......+25

 

[BC867]

I think it's just a matter of time before Gentry starts Tucker, however, since he has already made two lineup changes he may wait awhile before starting Tucker over Beasley. However, if it were me, the change would be made already.

I agree, but I don't think it is going to happen quickly. I wouldn't be surprised if the Front Office weren't putting pressure on Gentry to keep Beasley in the starting lineup. At least, Tucker is clearly our finisher now.

I was surprised, not that Dudley started the overtime (because he had hit some key 3's), but that Brown was kept on the bench for the whole OT, once Dudley missed a few.

It screws with team chemistry. I am a believer that your best closing unit should be your starting unit. But I guess that was contradicted with the +/- stats in this game. In the long run, I still believe it.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Interesting +/- stats for the game.

STARTERS.............BENCH..........
Dragic.....-10.........Telfair.....+13
Brown.....-14.........Dudley.....+13
Gortat.....-26.........O'Neal......+29
Morris......-6.........Scola.........+9
Beasley...-18........Tucker......+25

I think, until the Beasley experiment ends, +/- stats will mean very little for these players (even less than normal). Anyone forced to play along side Beasley will have their work cut out for them trying to get back to the plus side.

Steve

 

[AzStevenCal]

I agree, but I don't think it is going to happen quickly. I wouldn't be surprised if the Front Office weren't putting pressure on Gentry to keep Beasley in the starting lineup. At least, Tucker is clearly our finisher now.

I was surprised, not that Dudley started the overtime (because he had hit some key 3's), but that Brown was kept on the bench for the whole OT, once Dudley missed a few.

It screws with team chemistry. I am a believer that your best closing unit should be your starting unit. But I guess that was contradicted with the +/- stats in this game. In the long run, I still believe it.

I have to disagree with this. I believe in hot hands, situational matchups, closing ability etc and that doesn't necessarily equal best starting lineup. Not only that, I don't believe your best closing lineup is the same every game. Players like Eddie Johnson, Leandro Barbosa, Downtown Freddie Brown etc are great some nights but you don't want them out there when they're missing.

Steve

 

[BC867]

I think, until the Beasley experiment ends, +/- stats will mean very little for these players (even less than normal). Anyone forced to play along side Beasley will have their work cut out for them trying to get back to the plus side.

Steve

Good point, Steve!

 

[Phrazbit]

I think, until the Beasley experiment ends, +/- stats will mean very little for these players (even less than normal). Anyone forced to play along side Beasley will have their work cut out for them trying to get back to the plus side.

Steve

Yup. While Gortat's play was undeniably poor, its hard for the rest of the starters to account for how awful Beasley is. Defensively he is worse than being 4 on 5 because at least then they'd know who is being left open, but Beasley is so grossly inept in transition and on screens that he disrupts any hope for that defensive unit.

Back on Gortat, I hope the Suns are making some calls around the league and gauging his value. I know its early in the year to make a big roster altering move like that, but I really fear that his value could plummet if he begins another month long swoon like he suffered through last April.

 

[carey]

Back on Gortat, I hope the Suns are making some calls around the league and gauging his value. I know its early in the year to make a big roster altering move like that, but I really fear that his value could plummet if he begins another month long swoon like he suffered through last April.

Yup yup. And I'm worried this squad might find a way to hover around .500 all year and just miss the playoffs. That's worse case scenario for sure. We need to get the best package possible soon. Then enjoy watching a bunch of youngsters battle there heart out but LOSE every night like New Orleans is doing.

 

[sunsfan88]

This team is really impressing me. Unlike the past 2 years, we are actually fun to watch. Doesn't matter even if we're losing, our guys are making exciting, thrilling and athletic plays.

I'm loving it. Hopefully it stays like that all season. Only thing that worries me is our league worst defense.

 

[sunsfan88]

I think it's just a matter of time before Gentry starts Tucker, however, since he has already made two lineup changes he may wait awhile before starting Tucker over Beasley. However, if it were me, the change would be made already.

I think Gentry is waiting for Beasley's injury to heal and then if he still sucks, let him ride he pine.

 

[sunsfan88]

I have supported Gortat right from the start. But I can't understand his ON/OFF/OFF performances. Especially after he made his point and Scola got benched, giving him room. Letting Robin Lopez get the best of him? It makes no sense.

I'm with you on this. He's too good at times to play so wimpy at other times.

Steve

im a supporter too, but after his comments about not being the number one guy and with his erratic play, i dont like guys like that. just rubs me the wrong way.

What's amazing is that Gortat played this bad against Robin Lopez....just imagine how awful it would have been had Davis played....

 

[JS22]

Yup yup. And I'm worried this squad might find a way to hover around .500 all year and just miss the playoffs. That's worse case scenario for sure. We need to get the best package possible soon. Then enjoy watching a bunch of youngsters battle there heart out but LOSE every night like New Orleans is doing.

Because teams with high draft picks ALWAYS rebuild quickly? There are plenty of teams that have been lottery teams for 5-10 years with absolutely nothing to show for it.

I'm fine with them trying to win as many games as possible. And I don't enjoy rooting for them to "play hard and lose." And I'm sure the players don't agree with this mentality either.

This Suns roster is one legitimate talent away from being pretty good IMO. And I think the draft is more of a crapshoot than FA or trades. I'm sure almost everyone disagrees though.

 

[Mainstreet]

This Suns roster is one legitimate talent away from being pretty good IMO. And I think the draft is more of a crapshoot than FA or trades. I'm sure almost everyone disagrees though.

I agree that the draft is more of a crapshoot that FA or trades especially the way the Suns evaluate talent. The trouble is, it is hard to get a talent in FA or trade unless a team is financially strapped (or will be) in the case of a player like Harden. It is even harder to find such talent in the draft unless a team is drafting in the 1-3 position. If I were sure Gortat was the real deal I would keep him but I now have doubts. I would not hesitate using him to help go after that one player as you suggest. I believe the Suns core is now Dragic and Morris. If the Suns could get a quality young talent without giving up Gortat, so much the better.

 

[Superbone]

I have to disagree with this. I believe in hot hands, situational matchups, closing ability etc and that doesn't necessarily equal best starting lineup. Not only that, I don't believe your best closing lineup is the same every game. Players like Eddie Johnson, Leandro Barbosa, Downtown Freddie Brown etc are great some nights but you don't want them out there when they're missing.

Steve

I'm with you.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I have to disagree with this. I believe in hot hands, situational matchups, closing ability etc and that doesn't necessarily equal best starting lineup. Not only that, I don't believe your best closing lineup is the same every game. Players like Eddie Johnson, Leandro Barbosa, Downtown Freddie Brown etc are great some nights but you don't want them out there when they're missing.

Steve

It depends on the team. Our starting unit is not far and away better than our bench. So, for this team, I am with Steve.

Now if we had several real stars, finish with the stars.

 

[AzStevenCal]

It depends on the team. Our starting unit is not far and away better than our bench. So, for this team, I am with Steve.

Now if we had several real stars, finish with the stars.

I think you should almost always finish with your stars but I don't think that was BC867's point. For the most part I think you close with the players that give you the best chance to win that single game but I guess you sometimes have to consider the egos too and what that might do to/for you in the long run.

Steve

 

[Phrazbit]

Because teams with high draft picks ALWAYS rebuild quickly? There are plenty of teams that have been lottery teams for 5-10 years with absolutely nothing to show for it.

I'm fine with them trying to win as many games as possible. And I don't enjoy rooting for them to "play hard and lose." And I'm sure the players don't agree with this mentality either.

This Suns roster is one legitimate talent away from being pretty good IMO. And I think the draft is more of a crapshoot than FA or trades. I'm sure almost everyone disagrees though.

I dont think we need to tank, but you need to load up on young talent to rebuild. And getting young quality through free agency is almost impossible. Part of rebuilding is moving your big assets while they're at peak value. If the Suns are getting value for the assets they have now and hovering around .500... then great! But sitting on a guy like Gortat so we can push for 35 wins would be idiotic.

And free agency is just as much of a crap shoot as the draft, and when you whiff in free agency its far more painful. Now you're locked into a bad contract on a stiff. Where a whiffed pick can typically be moved, is on a small contract and the contract has limited guarantees.

As has been mentioned before; Miami is the only team to ever have success building primarily through free agency.

 

[BC867]

I think you should almost always finish with your stars but I don't think that was BC867's point. For the most part I think you close with the players that give you the best chance to win that single game but I guess you sometimes have to consider the egos too and what that might do to/for you in the long run.

And as the Suns have learned in this young season, you open with those players that give you the best chance to win. Consider egos, sure. But not at the expense of winning.

Especially when you have the ready-made excuse of an injury.

 

[AzStevenCal]

And as the Suns have learned in this young season, you open with those players that give you the best chance to win. Consider egos, sure. But not at the expense of winning.

Especially when you have the ready-made excuse of an injury.

Sure, but there are valid reasons to finish the game with someone other than the lineup with which you start the game. In Beasley's case, if Gentry is being encouraged to give him key minutes, I guess it doesn't really matter whether it's as a starter or a sub - he's still going to hurt you. Maybe Gentry figures the starting lineup can hide his weaknesses better. It's not looking like that but perhaps that's the reasoning.

Steve

 

[BC867]

Sure, but there are valid reasons to finish the game with someone other than the lineup with which you start the game. In Beasley's case, if Gentry is being encouraged to give him key minutes, I guess it doesn't really matter whether it's as a starter or a sub - he's still going to hurt you. Maybe Gentry figures the starting lineup can hide his weaknesses better. It's not looking like that but perhaps that's the reasoning.

I get your point, but there is another factor. Playing against the opponents' subs vs. against their best to start each game is a factor. Just as not playing at the end of a close game.