Hot air, cold truth: Suns deal with both

azdad1978

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Dan Bickley
The Arizona Republic
Nov. 18, 2005 12:00 AM

The Suns have bent their truths and sold their tickets.

They've also killed the best buzz this town has had in years, and now, an embarrassed organization is scrambling to save face.

"We got a nice hangover today," Suns coach Mike D'Antoni said after Thursday's practice, and, oh, it's a thumper.


The new-look Suns are 1-4 at home. They don't dunk. They don't play defense. They don't even play that hard. It must be a shock to the 3,000 additional season ticket holders that thought they were purchasing a championship contender.

"Our defense really is not very good at all," D'Antoni said. "We thought we'd be better defensively and we're not."

Next, we'll be hearing that Raja Bell is really just a complimentary player and not Kobe the Sequel.

Part of the problem here is that the Suns have been running their mouths and their counter plays for months. They sold season tickets based on a core group of players, many of whom no longer dress in Phoenix. But when it came time to cut the checks, they wouldn't even stretch to keep Steven Hunter, as if 7-foot-tall, super-athletic shot-blocking centers simply grow in the family garden.

The Suns also inflated expectations for this year's team. They boasted how Bell and Kurt Thomas would give them an unprecedented defensive presence. They whispered how James Jones was a steal. And at the apex of this hubris, D'Antoni said the Suns would be a 50-win team without Amaré Stoudemire and a broadcaster crowed how Boris Diaw and two first-round picks would be a coup in exchange for Joe Johnson.

D'Antoni was selling to his players. The broadcaster was shilling for the franchise. It was all done so the Suns wouldn't lose the buzz, so they wouldn't lose the momentum that prompted a whopping 97 percent of season ticket holders to renew. And guess what? They lost it anyway, on the court, where words count for nothing.

"No doubt about it," D'Antoni said. "And I'm worried. And I'm ticked off about it. We let the buzz go away."

D'Antoni was talking about his players, and no doubt, they've been less than advertised. Jones can't dribble or play defense. Thomas and Brian Grant don't have the legs for D'Antoni's high-octane system. Bell is a supplemental piece, not even Bobby Jackson, much less Kobe Lite.

But those were organizational decisions, too, and throw in the timing of Stoudemire's contract extension - a maximum deal that came just before his sore knee required microfracture surgery - and it's safe to assume that Bryan Colangelo will not repeat as Executive of the Year.

"There are a lot of people out there with little grins on their faces, saying, 'I told you so,' " D'Antoni said. "As a player, I would take offense to that."

Not sure who D'Antoni is talking about, other than members of Johnson's posse down in Atlanta, because no one around here is digging this show. After all, how can a team so improved defensively allow the Grizzlies to drop 115 points on them? How can a team go from sizzle to fizzle in a matter of months? And how can a postseason favorite like Jimmy Jackson, so stellar in subbing for Johnson in the Western Conference semifinals, get chained to the bench?

"I've been through a lot, and I've never been through this before," Jackson said. "But this is a coaches and management decision, to see what they've got. It's out of my control. There's nothing I can do."

For now, D'Antoni is imploring his team to get mad, to get motivated, to play with a heightened sense of urgency. But these new faces don't know what's on the line. They weren't here last year. And unlike last year's team, this new group is far too professional, with far too little street swagger.

Granted, it's early. But the warning signs and the empty seats are not encouraging.

"We're taking it on the chin a little bit," Suns President Rick Welts said. "We have something that cures that, but right now, he's in rehabilitation."

Alas, let's all wish Stoudemire a speedy return, and that he really makes that much of a difference.



Reach Bickley at [email protected] or (602) 444-8253.


http://www.azcentral.com/sports/columns/articles/1118bickley1118.html
 

Yuma

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I have friends and family already offering me condolences for the Suns season. Even my mom, who doesn't really follow the Suns offered condolences. I asked her how she knew they were playing bad, and she said she heard it almost everywhere she goes. :rolleyes: Yeah, the Suns killed the buzz in less than 10 games. Great.... :mad:
 

Mike Olbinski

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Yeah, it makes me want to cry....

I still wear my Amare jersey, and my hat every game...but it's just depressing...

Mike
 

elindholm

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Let's hope this is the low point of the season. Now we'll get a chance to see what this team is made of.
 

boisesuns

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I have a quesiton, are the majority of the suns fans in PHX fairweather fans? It seems like it based on articles like this and general response, and attandance at the "arena."

Reminds me of Boise State a little bit. We are 7-3 this year and people are upset about it, becuase we only lost 3-4 games in previous seasons combined. We could end the year 10-3 (with loses to Georgia, Oregon State and Fresno) and people would still be complaining :rolleyes:

Sorry for the tangent, back to the suns.... :D
 

myrondizzo

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for the last time we couldnt offer hunter anything more than the LLE. the philly deal was 3 or 4 times that much.
 
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Bickley's such a freaking moron. He only writes this ******** ish because it get's a rise out of suns fans.

It seems like he either 1. doesn't do research, or 2. avoids the bothersome ideals of 'truth' or 'integrity'.

Once again, Bickley=moron.
 

Treesquid PhD

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boisesuns said:
I have a quesiton, are the majority of the suns fans in PHX fairweather fans? It seems like it based on articles like this and general response, and attandance at the "arena."

Reminds me of Boise State a little bit. We are 7-3 this year and people are upset about it, becuase we only lost 3-4 games in previous seasons combined. We could end the year 10-3 (with loses to Georgia, Oregon State and Fresno) and people would still be complaining :rolleyes:

Sorry for the tangent, back to the suns.... :D

It's all about expectations and who created those expectations in the first place. Bickley's premise is something we have discussed for many months on this board.

When Sarver was changing the roster this summer many with 100% faith believed and defended every word of spin out of their mouths, if you are an avid fan someone who trolls message boards and keeps up with the entire league and bought that spin then how do you think Joe Suns fan feels now? These are people who blindly believe every word out of Sarver's spin machine, they are probably completely confused and disappointed which is a common symptom of fan ignorance. The only way to react is to say screw it I'll focus on something else, that is not exclusive to the Phoenix metro area.



Now my take is I hope the Suns don't overreact it is still very very early and they don't have their best player on the court. Anyone who notes the history of this franchise knows that the one thing the Suns brass hates is losing their grip on the "buzz" they created from previous seasons. Usually they react by blowing up the team and making cap unfriendly trades hoping to catch lightning in the bottle and regenerate the long departed buzz. Sarver in my opinion more so than Colangelo is more concerned about those attendance figures which I think makes him extremely dangerous right now, he has proven to be a novice with how he handled his first bit of success now he has to deal with his first bit of true adversity.

I have snidley commented several times that the JJ trade will never yield those 2 first round picks, time will tell but as the losses mount and the stands empty I have fear that we will start seeing the Suns of the mid to late 90's with expensive average players like the Rodney Rogers,Green, Googs, Manning, Longley, Penny Hardaway, Clifford Robinsons' and other boring old role players come in and the youth, picks and cap friendliness go out.


I have seen on this board may times how lucky we are not to be paying a 24 year old Joe Johnson his 70 million, and I would agree, but if the Suns follow that up by overeacting and paying some mid 30's fading star that $70 million in hopes of recapturing the buzz I think that is far worse.
 
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sunsinsider

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Wow you people need to get a grip, the suns lost to a good team. Not to mention they had maybe the best offensive output they will ever have they shot like 55% from the field or something they were making everything. We went cold for a spell and that was the difference. This is a young team period they HAVE NOT played that many games together lets give Nash some time to figure out these new guys talents. You can bet they will play better and better and when we get Amare back we are young and strong team. If this team even gets in the playoffs and has Amare back they will flat out be scary NO ONE will want to play them.

Last year everyone complained about depth and now that we have it no one seems happy. I for one am very happy with this team they are young fast and flot out enjoyable to watch and they WILL learn how to close games out. Something that would not be a problem anyways if we had Amare we might actually be getting to the line. He forces the Refs to blow a freakin whistle since they have not been for the suns this season, don't even want to think about the # of fouls that have NOT been called.

Oh YEAH and Bickley is a no talent hack of course he writes this sh**
 

boisesuns

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I think the obvious difference is Amare not being there. Nash plays better with Amare, and Amare anchors the offense. There is no one on this team that people need to double team on defense, so we don't have defensive switches and some of the missmatches we had last year. Our role players will work great in an offense around Amare. Unfortunalty, we have to figure out how to make it work without him for a while.

The team is not bad, it's just built around a player that isn't out there yet.
 

Treesquid PhD

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sunsinsider said:
Wow you people need to get a grip, the suns lost to a good team. The Suns lost to a team they swept just 5 months ago and several other teams this season. It is clear to about everyone even the Suns that there are issues right now
Not to mention they had maybe the best offensive output they will ever have they shot like 55% from the field or something they were making everything. We went cold for a spell and that was the difference. This is a young team period they HAVE NOT played that many games together lets give Nash some time to figure out these new guys talents. You must be a Cardinals fans or work in Saver's press room if you really believe this is a good excuse, keep in mind we had a young team last year as well and that certainly did not stop them from blowing out every team in the league. You can bet they will play better and better and when we get Amare back we are young and strong team. I think everyone understands the Suns will play better with Amare that doesn't give them the freedom to play the way they are right now. If this team even gets in the playoffs and has Amare back they will flat out be scary NO ONE will want to play them. Did you read this word for word in on Suns.com? There is just as much "if" that Amare sits out the whole season and the Suns go from 1st to not making the playoffs.

Last year everyone complained about depth and now that we have it no one seems happy. Wrong, not everyone....many people on this board felt that way. But there were many many more people who loved that team last year I think the attendeance speaks for itself. Even the coach said depth is vastly overratted. I for one am very happy with this team they are young fast and flot out enjoyable to watch and they WILL learn how to close games out. I am glad you are happy the world needs more positive people but understand there are many who find going from a great team which was young and fast to and average team that is young and fast is not wonderful. Something that would not be a problem anyways if we had Amare we might actually be getting to the line. He forces the Refs to blow a freakin whistle since they have not been for the suns this season, don't even want to think about the # of fouls that have NOT been called. Would you even consider that it is the fact the Suns are full of jumpshooters could be the real issue and not ref bias?

Oh YEAH and Bickley is a no talent hack of course he writes this sh**
I thought the commentary was right on the money, I suggest sticking to reading articles from suns.com that sems to be the materials you want to read and believe.
 

Arizona's Finest

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I have mixed feelings on this article, but i do not doubt the validity of some of its points.

Still I cant believe the outcry after one bad loss. I mean was it a big secret that Amare was our best player? I myself got caught up in the preseason record predictions thread but i think i knew all along this was between a 40-48 win team (W/O Amare at all) so this start should not be a surprise as i expected the mediocrity and our schedule has been pretty tough so far.

But Bickley is right. Its so funny how everyone just wants to call him a hack and say hes a "no talent whatever" when with Bickley, just like most everybody else, he has opinions and some you agree with and some you dont. And his opinions DO come from valid concerns, its just seems he can be a bit apocolyptic at times (this article included) Whatever, thats the stuff that sells newspapers. Its up to you, the "educated" reader to discern what you agree with and what you dont. The only writer i consistently hate and disagree with is John Hollinger. Seriously, i loathe that man.

In regards to the suns spinning their story lines, well yeah so does every other team. I just feel like the Suns are even more "glass half full" than just about every other franchise in sports. The team bus could crash killing every one and they would start spinning how this is a great opportunity to get Dijon Thompson a look. Thats just how they operate. I got crucified for saying i didnt think Amare would be back b/c "no on really knows"...yeah thanks guys i get that, my point is when the Suns say something, its always on the optimistic side and you have to account for that. I still dont think he will be back in 4 months but thats just my opinion.

The funny thing is all the guys they were pimping at the beginning of the preseason (Bell, Jones, KT) are the ones not living up to the billing, and the guys who it seemed like they were taking a more wait and see approach (Diaw and Barbosa) are the ones who lead the freaking NBA in +/-....thats ridiculous and makes me think that when the Suns really know something, they play it close to the vest. Pretty smart, but it takes more analysis when listining to press releases and interviews then it seems some of ya'll are willing to give.

I expected more out of KT and about the same from Bell and Jones. I did not expect Barbosa at all and Diaw has surpassed even my optimistic expectations beforehand so really its a wash in terms of what i felt would play out w/o Amare. The two things that dissapoint me the most are 1. Marion not becoming the number one scoring option (although i expected that) 2. And just how dependent Nash is on STAT. Simmons said that Amare is physically the best player to be the on the other side of that pick and roll (w/ his skill set) and Nash is also a premier runner of the play. That was an easy two every time last year. But while many (but not all) felt Nash made Amare, it is proving to be the other way around.

I still think we can win it all if Amare comes back at his previous level. The problem is we are relying on role players to do too much for too long a period of time. We dont really have a choice until our main guy comes back and if we are at .500 by the time he gets back, it should be considered a success. But this shouldnt be such a surprise, even accounting for the front office trying to sell tickets with their comments early on....The NBA more than anyother league is star driven and we are missing our most important player. The sky isnt falling but dont be surpised if it gets worse before it gets better.....
 
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sunsinsider

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Bickley you hack I had no idea you posted on here under the alias "Treesquid"

They have had ONE thats right only ONE bad loss this season you need to realize this team is learning to play together. And yeah it is way different than last year because these guys are coming from different systems and having to play themselves into this style. They will be fine and when they get Amare back they should be a strong contender. You must be a cards fan with your constant unhappiness and contempt for the funnest team in the valley to watch.

And just for the record how good would San Antonio be without Duncan?

Thats kinda the situation we are in be patient, damn all this after one freakin bad loss.
 

The Commish

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Arizona's Finest said:
I have mixed feelings on this article, but i do not doubt the validity of some of its points.

Still I cant believe the outcry after one bad loss. I mean was it a big secret that Amare was our best player? I myself got caught up in the preseason record predictions thread but i think i knew all along this was between a 40-48 win team (W/O Amare at all) so this start should not be a surprise as i expected the mediocrity and our schedule has been pretty tough so far.

But Bickley is right. Its so funny how everyone just wants to call him a hack and say hes a "no talent whatever" when with Bickley, just like most everybody else, he has opinions and some you agree with and some you dont. And his opinions DO come from valid concerns, its just seems he can be a bit apocolyptic at times (this article included) Whatever, thats the stuff that sells newspapers. Its up to you, the "educated" reader to discern what you agree with and what you dont. The only writer i consistently hate and disagree with is John Hollinger. Seriously, i loathe that man.

In regards to the suns spinning their story lines, well yeah so does every other team. I just feel like the Suns are even more "glass half full" than just about every other franchise in sports. The team bus could crash killing every one and they would start spinning how this is a great opportunity to get Dijon Thompson a look. Thats just how they operate. I got crucified for saying i didnt think Amare would be back b/c "no on really knows"...yeah thanks guys i get that, my point is when the Suns say something, its always on the optimistic side and you have to account for that. I still dont think he will be back in 4 months but thats just my opinion.

The funny thing is all the guys they were pimping at the beginning of the preseason (Bell, Jones, KT) are the ones not living up to the billing, and the guys who it seemed like they were taking a more wait and see approach (Diaw and Barbosa) are the ones who lead the freaking NBA in +/-....thats ridiculous and makes me think that when the Suns really know something, they play it close to the vest. Pretty smart, but it takes more analysis when listining to press releases and interviews then it seems some of ya'll are willing to give.

I expected more out of KT and about the same from Bell and Jones. I did not expect Barbosa at all and Diaw has surpassed even my optimistic expectations beforehand so really its a wash in terms of what i felt would play out w/o Amare. The two things that dissapoint me the most are 1. Marion not becoming the number one scoring option (although i expected that) 2. And just how dependent Nash is on STAT. Simmons said that Amare is physically the best player to be the on the other side of that pick and roll (w/ his skill set) and Nash is also a premier runner of the play. That was an easy two every time last year. But while many (but not all) felt Nash made Amare, it is proving to be the other way around.

I still think we can win it all if Amare comes back at his previous level. The problem is we are relying on role players to do too much for too long a period of time. We dont really have a choice until our main guy comes back and if we are at .500 by the time he gets back, it should be considered a success. But this shouldnt be such a surprise, even accounting for the front office trying to sell tickets with their comments early on....The NBA more than anyother league is star driven and we are missing our most important player. The sky isnt falling but dont be surpised if it gets worse before it gets better.....

Well put AZ. My sentiments exactly. :thumbup:
 

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sunsinsider said:
Bickley you hack I had no idea you posted on here under the alias "Treesquid"

They have had ONE thats right only ONE bad loss this season you need to realize this team is learning to play together. And yeah it is way different than last year because these guys are coming from different systems and having to play themselves into this style. They will be fine and when they get Amare back they should be a strong contender. You must be a cards fan with your constant unhappiness and contempt for the funnest team in the valley to watch.

And just for the record how good would San Antonio be without Duncan?

Thats kinda the situation we are in be patient, damn all this after one freakin bad loss.

I would say we have had 2 bad losses, the Dallas game in double OT and the Sacramento game where we also blew a 17pt lead in the 4th. The Memphis game was kind of bad, but they were on fire the entire night. Maybe if we had played better defense then they wouldn't have shot such a high percentage, but they still hit a lot more wide open outside jumpshots than most teams would have been able to.
 

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Bickley you hack I had no idea you posted on here under the alias "Treesquid"


Mike D'Antoni you hack i had no idea you posted on here under the alias "sunsinsider"....




:p
 

carrrnuttt

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I just basically lurk this board most of the time, and am content simply reading the fans' comments in here, but man...some of you guys are unbelievable.

The Spurs lost by a higher margin (15), to a team with a similar record to Memphis (Washington: 5-3, Memphis 6-3). Are the Spurs a lottery team now?

EVERY team, regardless of how good they are, always sees a blowout loss at least once or twice in a season. How many blowouts did the 'buzz team' of the NBA experience last season? That was WITH Amare. If this happens again, against Utah, then I'd understand, but how many times will several players on the same team hit over 70% of their jumpshots against the Suns, even with a hand in their face?

It was a hot night for Memphis, who was looking for revenge, I'm sure, and the Suns came in too careless from the layoff, I'd presume...let's leave it at that.
 

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nice post carnutt agree completly!


Also the Dallas loss I dont think was a bad loss double OT it took and they snuck away with a couple of point victory. That was a great game to watch also by the way.

Lets see where the team set after about 20 games it will give us all a better grasp of what we are dealing with.


Nice Jab AZ's finest well done.... haha
 

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Anytime you lose a 17pt lead in the 4th qtr it has to be considered a bad loss. Plus they lost a 5pt lead in the 1st overtime. That game seemed to set a tone that the Suns will give up big leads in the 4th and gives every other team that plays us confidence that they can always come back. It was a horrible way to start the season.
 

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Amaretotheline_ said:
Bickley's such a freaking moron. He only writes this ******** ish because it get's a rise out of suns fans.

It seems like he either 1. doesn't do research, or 2. avoids the bothersome ideals of 'truth' or 'integrity'.

Once again, Bickley=moron.


:rolleyes:

Bickley was writing awesome things abou the Suns last year, and everyone was fine with him.

He speaks the truth this year and you think he's a moron?

We're ONE AND FOUR AT HOME!

We suck right now, and everything he said was right on.

Mike
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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sunsinsider said:
Bickley you hack I had no idea you posted on here under the alias "Treesquid"

They have had ONE thats right only ONE bad loss this season you need to realize this team is learning to play together. And yeah it is way different than last year because these guys are coming from different systems and having to play themselves into this style. They will be fine and when they get Amare back they should be a strong contender. You must be a cards fan with your constant unhappiness and contempt for the funnest team in the valley to watch.

And just for the record how good would San Antonio be without Duncan?

Thats kinda the situation we are in be patient, damn all this after one freakin bad loss.

okay, this team is no longer that fun to watch. they are not raining treys or throwing down explosive dunks or scoring regularly with only 3 seconds off the shot clock. that was LAST YEAR's team. they are a team that is blowing big leads. are they more fun to watch than the cards, coyotes, or dbacks? sure. but that ain't saying much.

i'm not critical of this team so much b/c it was built around amare and until he's 100% and back we have NO idea how the moves will work out. that said, i am disappointed with d'antoni. with a large chunk of training camp and now weeks into the season mike knew that amare was gone. it seems he has not adapted his offense much to that fact. the fact that nash has to dribble, dribble, dribble around at the end of games and then throw up a jumper that seems to be invariably short this season due to his exhaustion, instead of having a set play with cutters designed to get SOMEONE open, speaks volumes to mike's inability to adapt. this is just my opinion.

i've been pleasantly surprised by barbosa. and my hopes for diaw seem to be coming to fruition (okay, surpassing my hopes), and i'm patient with james jones. i'm also willing to be patient with bell, kt, and grant as they were brought in as compliments to amare. and as far as marion goes, he's doing what he's always done. i think expecting more of him was unrealistic. if you're a suns fan, you know what shawn can, and cannot, do. house is the same as marion - he's doing what he's supposed to do. i feel for nash 'cuz i really think he's taking too much upon himself, and probably has to in mike's offense. and jjax is just baffling to me. he's a savvy vet who plays within himself and get his own shot sometimes. the fact that mike is not playing him is confounding.

i expected this team to maybe not make the playoffs. seems that's gonna be close to accurate (i sincerely hope amare does NOT come back this year). they'll hover just under .500 for the season unless they do make a big move and acquire a true post threat (but how many of THOSE grow on trees?). it'll be nice to see the youngsters expand their games and then look out in 2006-2007!
 

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We have the pieces to be a good defensive team (Bell,Grant,Thomas,Jones,Marion,etc) but D'Antoni's schemes are out of whack. You can't double team every friggin game and expect to clamp down on teams. Take the chance on the post player and make him score about 3 shots in a row before you start doubling. Gasol knew the double was coming every time and we lost because of it. D'Antoni's idea of throwing random double teams to rattle teams doesn't work.
 

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One Word

One word explains all the cynicism and bitterness.....................Amare!

The same results would be expected if any other team lost their superstar. Sure, we all hoped for something more but this is reality...............Amare in the lineup means we are a contender, without him we fight to stay at .500.
 

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TradeNash said:
We have the pieces to be a good defensive team (Bell,Grant,Thomas,Jones,Marion,etc) but D'Antoni's schemes are out of whack. You can't double team every friggin game and expect to clamp down on teams. Take the chance on the post player and make him score about 3 shots in a row before you start doubling. Gasol knew the double was coming every time and we lost because of it. D'Antoni's idea of throwing random double teams to rattle teams doesn't work.

Completely agree. And even with Amare, the lack of knowledge/concern from D'Antoni as to how to play real defense makes it difficult for me to believe this team will win a title until D'Antoni changes, or someone else takes over. Look at Popovich, if you don't play D, you don't get on the floor. He got frickin' Brent Barry and Glen Robinson to play some pretty decent defense last year. It's all about a defense commitment from the coach.
I don't see D'Antoni ever having that, or even the desire to correct little defensive things, like telling shawn marion to get his hands up, instead of having them hanging to the side, when he is out guarding someone on the perimiter.

As angry as I get at Barkley for what he says, ultimately he is right for one primary reason. When you have the commitment from a coach to make sure the team plays good defense, that never goes away. You'll have games where your shot is on or off, but defense is always consistent.
 
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