How come you guys are always complaining when Graves doesn't get someone?

[the_future23]

Have you maybe ever thought, all these players don't want to play for the Cardinals. I'm sure Graves did go after Winston. I'm sure he did go after Bell. I'm sure he did go after Wimbley. These players probably just have no desire to play for the Cardinals, then you guys go all ape poop on Graves.

 

[Shane]

 

[Red Dawn]

 

[Solar7]

Sans the quadruple posting, you're ridiculous.

If he consistently proved he could bring in players that we targeted, no one would care. But we've been seen many a time to fail at three key personnel issues. We haven't been proactive with our upcoming free agents, we have struggled to fill major needs with available players that are high profile (admittedly, we actually have had some significant acquisitions in the past few years, whether or not they have panned out), and we have drafted poorly. Combine that with the perceived slow pace that we take with almost all personnel decisions, and the guy hasn't exactly done a fantastic job.

Let's be honest, though. If you had told told any ASFN'er that we'd have a coaching/GM regime that brought us to two division championships and a Super Bowl back in 2003, we'd have lauded both as the greatest members of this organization.

So, take it for what it's worth. I think Graves has done a pretty good job, in a sense, but I still envy the organizations that have great football guys at the helm.

 

[Solar7]

Have you maybe ever thought, all these players don't want to play for the Cardinals. I'm sure Graves did go after Winston. I'm sure he did go after Bell. I'm sure he did go after Wimbley. These players probably just have no desire to play for the Cardinals, then you guys go all ape poop on Graves.

Oh, and also, unless I see something to say he really did go for Eric Winston and Kamerion Wimbley this offseason, I'm going to say they weren't brought in, or strongly considered. I'm not sure why you're pegging players' lack of desire to play for this team when the culture has changed, and one of your mentioned players really did visit, and hasn't gotten offers elsewhere. If we had interest, Bell would have some kind of offer.

You can fault Graves for not seeming to have much of a plan past "oh my God we need Peyton Manning," but I do admire that he tried and that we expeditiously brought him in for our pitch. That's not the past Cardinal style.

 

[the_future23]

Sans the quadruple posting, you're ridiculous.

If he consistently proved he could bring in players that we targeted, no one would care. But we've been seen many a time to fail at three key personnel issues. We haven't been proactive with our upcoming free agents, we have struggled to fill major needs with available players that are high profile (admittedly, we actually have had some significant acquisitions in the past few years, whether or not they have panned out), and we have drafted poorly. Combine that with the perceived slow pace that we take with almost all personnel decisions, and the guy hasn't exactly done a fantastic job.

Let's be honest, though. If you had told told any ASFN'er that we'd have a coaching/GM regime that brought us to two division championships and a Super Bowl back in 2003, we'd have lauded both as the greatest members of this organization.

So, take it for what it's worth. I think Graves has done a pretty good job, in a sense, but I still envy the organizations that have great football guys at the helm.

I'm not saying he's the greatest GM. All I'm saying is I come here every now and then and I constantly see complaining blaming him about not getting this free agent, or that free agent. And we don't know why, but I'm sure a lot of it has to do with said free agent simply not wanting to play for the Cardinals.

*Sorry for quad post. CPU got messed up and I didn't know how to lock them :/

 

[the_future23]

Oh, and also, unless I see something to say he really did go for Eric Winston and Kamerion Wimbley this offseason, I'm going to say they weren't brought in, or strongly considered. I'm not sure why you're pegging players' lack of desire to play for this team when the culture has changed, and one of your mentioned players really did visit, and hasn't gotten offers elsewhere. If we had interest, Bell would have some kind of offer.

You can fault Graves for not seeming to have much of a plan past "oh my God we need Peyton Manning," but I do admire that he tried and that we expeditiously brought him in for our pitch. That's not the past Cardinal style.

To get a visit, you need to call an agent. The agent needs to ask the player if the team interests him. Winston had a ton of looks. I'm sure he passed on the Cardinals immediately. Wimbley is about to sign in Tennessee, and I'm sure the same scenario (or he was just too expensive). Bell, I think is simply to injury prone and Cardinals aren't after him. More just an example used above.

 

[Solar7]

And we don't know why, but I'm sure a lot of it has to do with said free agent simply not wanting to play for the Cardinals.

Even if we're blaming FAs not coming to the Cardinals on account of not wanting to play for the organization, upper management is culpable for that. It might not begin with Rod Graves, but it is very much his given challenge to make the team better and draw in players who can make this a desirable destination for NFL free agents.

Michael Bidwill and Ken Whisenhunt & co. are very much part of the process, but they have done so much lately that I don't feel like you can give a mediocre GM a pass on the idea that "players just don't want to play here." If they don't, it's very much his fault.

 

[Solar7]

To get a visit, you need to call an agent. The agent needs to ask the player if the team interests him. Winston had a ton of looks. I'm sure he passed on the Cardinals immediately. Wimbley is about to sign in Tennessee, and I'm sure the same scenario (or he was just too expensive). Bell, I think is simply to injury prone and Cardinals aren't after him. More just an example used above.

Why would Winston pass on the Cardinals? It's a team that he could have clearly immediately become a starter on (most likely), and he just got cut by another team. He had looks, but just because he's a recognizable name doesn't mean he's a fit for our team, one that doesn't employ lighter tackles. He's a product of a zone scheme, and was brought up as part of a Gary Kubiak offense that employed starters in both Denver and Houston that don't have the size or power to succeed in almost any other scheme.

Just because a player is in high demand, doesn't mean he is the right fit for your team and scheme. Julius Peppers would not have fit on our defense a year ago, and he's a fantastic talent.

Wimbley is going to break the bank in Tennessee, and really doesn't deserve to. Their scheme probably won't fit him, and again, he was cut. Marquee players that really change the landscape of a team are very rarely available in free agency, and even moreso, are practically never just let go. Don't get caught up in names, but understand the concept. When it comes to Demetrius Bell, maybe we just decided we didn't want him.

Maybe one of the better and more recent examples is this, right in our own division. Last year, you can easily argue that the 49ers, who signed Carlos Rogers, got much better production from him than the Eagles got from Nnmandi Asoumugha. All at a much better price, because he fit their scheme, again. Smart teams don't play the market like it's fantasy football.

 

[52brandon]

Have you maybe ever thought, all these players don't want to play for the Cardinals. I'm sure Graves did go after Winston. I'm sure he did go after Bell. I'm sure he did go after Wimbley. These players probably just have no desire to play for the Cardinals, then you guys go all ape poop on Graves.

ok. Explain Calais Campbell. Karlos Dansby. Anquan Boldin. Kurt Warner had to visit SF before Graves made him the offer he wanted

 

[Solar7]

ok. Explain Calais Campbell. Karlos Dansby. Anquan Boldin. Kurt Warner had to visit SF before Graves made him the offer he wanted

I don't want to straddle both sides of this argument, but Boldin didn't want to play here anymore. Future has a point with at least that player. Dansby wanted to cash in majorly, and did. He was a fantastic player, but maybe not worth what he got paid. Kurt's situation is definitely odd. He seems to hold a bit of a grudge, and that can be the organization's fault easily.

I firmly believe that Calais Campbell will be re-signed just like Dockett, Wilson, and Fitz without much further issues.

 

[52brandon]

I don't want to straddle both sides of this argument, but Boldin didn't want to play here anymore. Future has a point with at least that player. Dansby wanted to cash in majorly, and did. He was a fantastic player, but maybe not worth what he got paid. Kurt's situation is definitely odd. He seems to hold a bit of a grudge, and that can be the organization's fault easily.

I firmly believe that Calais Campbell will be re-signed just like Dockett, Wilson, and Fitz without much further issues.

Boldin didn't wanna play here anymore? I never heard that. I know he wanted a bigger contract and was dealt because it became apparent that it wasn't gonna happen, but I thought he did want to stay

 

[Brian in Mesa]

Boldin didn't wanna play here anymore? I never heard that. I know he wanted a bigger contract and was dealt because it became apparent that it wasn't gonna happen, but I thought he did want to stay

He demanded a trade. Claimed he was lied to about getting a new contract.

Personally:

He was under contract. A contract he agreed to and signed. Play it out and get a new deal. All his whining was ridiculous to me.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

Look at what Buffalo's GM did in free agency. He set a target of Mario Williams, got him to visit, and didn't let him leave without a contract. When is the last time the Cards did something like this in free agency? I'm sure Buffalo wasn't the only choice of Williams's at the beginning of free agency. Also, Buffalo got their #1 impending free agent re-signed at the deadline in Steve Johnson. Graves let stars like Warner, and I even think Fitz was available at one time at the beginning of FA, but I could be mistaken, hit the open market. Campbell will be the next to go. It would be nice for Graves to for once say we're going after this guy and get him. Hell, Graves couldn't even keep Richard Marshall. I don't consider him a big loss but if your DC call him the teams defensvie MVP and he can be re-signed at a price that isn't cost prohibitive, why is he now in Miami? According to Marshall, the Cards didn't even make a competitive offer. Let's face it, when it comes to free agency, Graves gets guys that are on their last contract or no one else really wants. He has never even beein the mix for a "coveted" free agent.

 

[Cardiac]

Look at what Buffalo's GM did in free agency. He set a target of Mario Williams, got him to visit, and didn't let him leave without a contract. When is the last time the Cards did something like this in free agency? I'm sure Buffalo wasn't the only choice of Williams's at the beginning of free agency. Also, Buffalo got their #1 impending free agent re-signed at the deadline in Steve Johnson. Graves let stars like Warner, and I even think Fitz was available at one time at the beginning of FA, but I could be mistaken, hit the open market. Campbell will be the next to go. It would be nice for Graves to for once say we're going after this guy and get him. Hell, Graves couldn't even keep Richard Marshall. I don't consider him a big loss but if your DC call him the teams defensvie MVP and he can be re-signed at a price that isn't cost prohibitive, why is he now in Miami? According to Marshall, the Cards didn't even make a competitive offer. Let's face it, when it comes to free agency, Graves gets guys that are on their last contract or no one else really wants. He has never even beein the mix for a "coveted" free agent.

It's just too easy to blame Graves for all of this. Whiz has become very involved with personel and of course we have an owner with a history of being penny wise and dollar foolish.

We signed Edge when he was a coveted FA. Just last year we snagged Heap when he was still visiting the Jets.

Marshall was simply a CAP casualty. The very well run Dolphins paid a good amount for a Nickle CB/FS.

The rookie contract that gave Fitz all the leverage was Bill Sr's doing.

The snails pace is just as likely Bill Sr's fault as Graves. The Cards were very active and fast paced in last years FA market so maybe Michael finally wrestled the check book away from dad.

This year we are tight against the CAP and simply not going to over spend for mediocre or solid talent. When a team wins 7 of their last 9 games then does there really need to be a lot of changes?

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Have you maybe ever thought, all these players don't want to play for the Cardinals. I'm sure Graves did go after Winston. I'm sure he did go after Bell. I'm sure he did go after Wimbley. These players probably just have no desire to play for the Cardinals, then you guys go all ape poop on Graves.

Um, Yeah.

Exactly.

We "poop" on Graves because the organization needs to become more competitive, and attract that kind of talent. There is a reason these players don't want to come here, and it is not the coach, the system, the location, or the fans, IMHO. It is the reputation that this organization is a loser, and cheap.

Yes, you can fight that claim all you want, and even if the reputation is untrue, it is how the league, and its players think, and true or not, that is all that matters.

 

[Duckjake]

The rookie contract that gave Fitz all the leverage was Bill Sr's doing.

The Bidwills with contracts like Larry's and Levi's were just doing what was standard in the NFL to prevent Rookie's holding out. They didn't do anything wrong in writing the contracts. What they did wrong was not address them the next to last year of the contract which is also part of what they were originally designed to do.

In fact the Bidwills were bashed constantly on Cardinal message boards for NOT writing contracts like those.

On the other hand the Cards have had problems with their star players for decades. Don't know exactly why but it is true.

 

[Garthshort]

I complain, sometimes, because he seems to move so sloooooooowwwwly!!

 

[RugbyMuffin]

He demanded a trade. Claimed he was lied to about getting a new contract.

Personally:

He was under contract. A contract he agreed to and signed. Play it out and get a new deal. All his whining was ridiculous to me.

Yeah, cause that NEVER happens in this league.

You get the best players on the field. If the Cardinals drop every player that complains about their contract, then there would be very few players left on the team.

Silly. This is the NFL, and to compete, you have to be able to deal with the issues that other teams deal with in order to field the best players they can.

It is like the Cardinals search for reasons NOT to pay their players.

 

[Snakester]

Graves needs to fix the weak spots on the team. That is his job. So far he has never done a good job yet. We have needed passrushers and Offensive tackles for years and he drops the ball every year. We should have signed Eric Winston big time and we didn't. Graves job is to upgrade the team every year. I think its about time for him to do his job.

 

[JeffGollin]

Have you maybe ever thought, all these players don't want to play for the Cardinals. I'm sure Graves did go after Winston. I'm sure he did go after Bell. I'm sure he did go after Wimbley. These players probably just have no desire to play for the Cardinals, then you guys go all ape poop on Graves.

Hmm. Absolutely "sure" Graves went after Winston and Wimbley.

What makes you so sure? Do you have a secret recording device hidden in Graves' laptop?

It's one thing to "hope" we're going after guys like Winston, Bell and Wimbley and (with the exception of Bell - who was in here and reported to still be on the team's radar screen) another thing to state that you're "sure."

It also can't hurt to point out that, just because a guy pays a visit, it doesn't tell you (a) whether the dude was actually serious or merely making the FA rounds, (b) whether the team was serious - i.e. actually made a competitive offer or (c) (speculating) that sometimes teams will interview players less because they're serious and more to placate the fans, scare a rival etc.

One thing I've noticed, though: When the Cardinal FO is interested in a FA, things tend to happen quickly or they don't happen at all. Rod's MO seems to be that one way to avoid confrontation with fans and media is to stall on a decision until it quietly fades away. (It drives many of us nuts).

It also fosters unwarranted criticism and/or praise of Rod because things don't seem to happen very quickly (if at all) and, we fans are left having to deal with an information vacuum.

My point - It's unfair to issue blanket praise or criticism of Rod over pending decisions or actions when we can't read his mind. Best we wait til we really know what's gone down.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

Um, Yeah.

Exactly.

We "poop" on Graves because the organization needs to become more competitive, and attract that kind of talent. There is a reason these players don't want to come here, and it is not the coach, the system, the location, or the fans, IMHO. It is the reputation that this organization is a loser, and cheap.

Yes, you can fight that claim all you want, and even if the reputation is untrue, it is how the league, and its players think, and true or not, that is all that matters.[/QUOTE]

As a member of the NFL Alumni you, of course, would know.

The Cards at $119M lead the League in cash spent last offseason. Some boycott!

 

[Crazy Canuck]

Graves needs to fix the weak spots on the team. That is his job. So far he has never done a good job yet. We have needed passrushers and Offensive tackles for years and he drops the ball every year. We should have signed Eric Winston big time and we didn't. Graves job is to upgrade the team every year. I think its about time for him to do his job.

Then, I guess, Graves should fire Steve Kiem and T. J. McCreight becomes there the one's who make the draft and pro personnel recommendations.

 

[moosehead]

Have you maybe ever thought, all these players don't want to play for the Cardinals. I'm sure Graves did go after Winston. I'm sure he did go after Bell. I'm sure he did go after Wimbley. These players probably just have no desire to play for the Cardinals, then you guys go all ape poop on Graves.

Rod.....? Is that you??

Sorry, couldn't resist

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

It's just too easy to blame Graves for all of this. Whiz has become very involved with personel and of course we have an owner with a history of being penny wise and dollar foolish.

We signed Edge when he was a coveted FA. Just last year we snagged Heap when he was still visiting the Jets.

Marshall was simply a CAP casualty. The very well run Dolphins paid a good amount for a Nickle CB/FS.

The rookie contract that gave Fitz all the leverage was Bill Sr's doing.

The snails pace is just as likely Bill Sr's fault as Graves. The Cards were very active and fast paced in last years FA market so maybe Michael finally wrestled the check book away from dad.

This year we are tight against the CAP and simply not going to over spend for mediocre or solid talent. When a team wins 7 of their last 9 games then does there really need to be a lot of changes?

Edge was not coveted. He was considered a RB who was on his last legs. I know you said this year, but the Cards consistently over pay for mediocre talent, see Portrer, Bradley, Johnson etc, and that makes it even more frustrating. Why not spend the money on talented players instead expecting proven mediocre players like Paris Lenon to come in and suddenly be good players. Demetrius Bell is available and fills a substantila need. Why would they let him leave unless there is a medical issue we don't know about. We'll find out about that. Why not make a play for Kameron Wimbley? Do you think he pulled Tennessee out of a hat? The Titans contacted him and showed a strong interest. That's why he's going there. Graves doesn't do that.