How do you see our LB core shaking out?

RobbleRobble

Hope springs eternal
Joined
Nov 24, 2004
Posts
257
Reaction score
2
Wondering what opinions are on who will end up starting at LB this year? Clearly Dansby will be starting, but what about the other two spots?

How will the Pace experiment play out? Will we end up starting Darling? Could Blackstock develop into something? Will Hayes take Darling's job? What about Lance Mitchell? (If memory serves he was one of the top LBs in the country his junior season before tearing an ACL.)

Seems like we have lots of options, but outside of Dansby, I can't get too excited about any LB combination.
 

kerouac9

Klowned by Keim
Joined
Feb 14, 2003
Posts
38,693
Reaction score
30,525
Location
Gilbert, AZ
I think you could be excited about the potential of a Darling-Hayes-Dansby lb corps of starters. I also think that a Huff-Hayes-Dansby grouping would make for an above average group of starters.

I think that you're in for trouble if Blackstock or Mitchell end up starting this season. I think we'll see Calvin Pace in various subpackages once the season starts, but I think he's trouble as a starter, as well.
 

The Commish

youknowhatimsayin?
Joined
Jun 16, 2004
Posts
2,201
Reaction score
11
Location
San Francisco
From reports it sounds like Pace could see some solid PT. It will be interesting to see how his awareness and understanding of the new position is. He certainly has all of the physical tools.
 

B-Dogg

Registered
Joined
Jan 6, 2004
Posts
538
Reaction score
0
Location
Queens, NY...soon to be PHX
I honestly think you may see Dansby moved to WLB and Pace playing alot of the strong side with Hayes in the middle with Huff and Darling seeing a lot of playing time as well... Pace gives them a psuedo five man front that they like to run and Dansby would be even better on the other side IMO...
 

NEZCardsfan

ASFN Addict
BANNED BY MODERATORS
Joined
Mar 14, 2005
Posts
9,388
Reaction score
4
Not good. Before I say anymore...let me mix it up......:koolaid: :koolaid:

Oh yeah. They'll be friggin' awesome.
 

CardinalChris

Big Man Himself
Joined
Jul 11, 2002
Posts
3,929
Reaction score
0
Location
Fresno, CA
I really think Hayes will impress this year. The problem is that Dansby and Hayes have been nicked up a little in the past and depth is suspect at this position.
 

MadCardDisease

Moderator
Moderator
Supporting Member
Joined
May 13, 2002
Posts
20,824
Reaction score
14,841
Location
Chandler, Az
CardinalChris said:
I really think Hayes will impress this year. The problem is that Dansby and Hayes have been nicked up a little in the past and depth is suspect at this position.

I also think that Hayes will regain the starting roll. Hayes is a force in the middle and I believe he will really help with stopping the run.

I would like to see Dansby move to the Weakside if the Pace experiment works out which I believe it will.

So I think our starters at LB will be Pace, Hayes and Dansby.
 

phillycard

ASFN Addict
Joined
Aug 22, 2003
Posts
7,284
Reaction score
4,283
Location
The 215
MadCardDisease said:
So I think our starters at LB will be Pace, Hayes and Dansby.


I can live with that. I really need Huff to step it up though.
 

JeffGollin

ASFN Icon
Joined
May 14, 2002
Posts
20,472
Reaction score
3,056
Location
Holmdel, NJ
From "Hardy Brown's" recent comments, if everyone stays healthy, it looks like - sooner not later - we may see a starting unit consisting of Pace - Hayes - Dansby at SLB - MLB - WLB.

Our top 3 backups would, I presume, figure to be Huff, Darling and Blackstock - with maybe Brandon Johnson and/or Mitchell possible #7/#8's. (Better depth than I thought we'd have coming into training camp).
 
OP
OP
RobbleRobble

RobbleRobble

Hope springs eternal
Joined
Nov 24, 2004
Posts
257
Reaction score
2
MadCardDisease said:
I also think that Hayes will regain the starting roll. Hayes is a force in the middle and I believe he will really help with stopping the run.

I would like to see Dansby move to the Weakside if the Pace experiment works out which I believe it will.

So I think our starters at LB will be Pace, Hayes and Dansby.

I was thinking the same thing actually, though the jury is still out on Pace as a LB. I'll be watching him this preseason to see if he can do it when the bullets are flying.
 

kerouac9

Klowned by Keim
Joined
Feb 14, 2003
Posts
38,693
Reaction score
30,525
Location
Gilbert, AZ
MadCardDisease said:
I would like to see Dansby move to the Weakside if the Pace experiment works out which I believe it will.

So I think our starters at LB will be Pace, Hayes and Dansby.

All right, but you're asking Calvin Pace to cover Jerramy Stevens, Vernon Davis, and Joe Klopfenstein twice this year.
 

Hardy Brown

Rookie
Joined
May 6, 2006
Posts
67
Reaction score
0
All right, but you're asking Calvin Pace to cover Jerramy Stevens, Vernon Davis, and Joe Klopfenstein twice this year.

This would be a problem, Kerouac, if you lined up and asked Pace to play man-coverage every play. This will not happen. The Cardinals can play any combination of zones, cover the TE with a safety (man), of "Banjo" (play in and out) the TE with Pace and another player.
 

kerouac9

Klowned by Keim
Joined
Feb 14, 2003
Posts
38,693
Reaction score
30,525
Location
Gilbert, AZ
But then aren't you taking a strength (covering TEs), and then making in a weakness? Especially when pressure on the QB is already going to be better because of personnel returing from injury?

Why change what's obviously working? Putting Dansby on the weakside isn't going to make our run defense any better.
 

Hardy Brown

Rookie
Joined
May 6, 2006
Posts
67
Reaction score
0
But then aren't you taking a strength (covering TEs), and then making in a weakness? Especially when pressure on the QB is already going to be better because of personnel returing from injury?

All that matters is that the TE gets covered, Kerouac. Wouldn't you agree? Who cares HOW he gets covered. All that matters is that he does. There are many different ways to cover the TE.

In regard to your comment on pressure: think of using the plague of every offensive coordinator - the zone-blitz.

Imagine, if you will, a SAM-backer teams cannot block with a running back or TE. If teams cannot block a backer with a running back or TE they must block big-on-big all the way across the line-of-scrimmage and use the back to pick-up other line-backers.

Imagine the center calling out, "Solid...solid," informing his mates to block big-on-big. Not only is this a problem for the center (being on an island against a defender with the shortest route to the Q) but who's to say all five of those players will actually rush the passer. Why not bring Pace, drop Dockett, rush the other three and play zone behind it? (or any combination thereof) Why not have a tackle "set" on Pace (whom they cannot block with a TE or RB), rush the other four lineman and have Pace drop into a zone (being played by the rest of the secondary)? The tackle would then, in affect, be setting on air, wasted in the protection (with the center still on an island).

Why change what's obviously working? Putting Dansby on the weakside isn't going to make our run defense any better.

I don't think our defense really "worked" last year. Finishing number eight in the NFL in total defense is a BIG misnomer. The defense didn't give up a ton of yardage because they were operating on a short-field much of the time. This can be directly linked to two primary truths:

1) The Cardinals were the third worst team in the league in turnover-margin (-11). Because of this, many teams got the ball in our territory.

2) Our special teams were so atrocious last year that field position was always a MAJOR problem. We couldn't punt the ball (net) well and usually did it backed up because our offense was inconsistent at best. Teams played on a short-field. Our kickoff-cover was horrible, dead last in the league (by far), which consistently placed opposing offenses on a shorter field.

If you want to know how mightily our defense struggled in 2005, look at our scoring defense rank: #27. We could not consistently stop an offense when we had to and the reason we finished number eight in total defense was because of the short-field.

The defense is broke and needs to be fixed.

I respectfully (but completely) disagree with your assumption that Dansby at WLB won't improve our rush-defense. We shall see...
 

MadCardDisease

Moderator
Moderator
Supporting Member
Joined
May 13, 2002
Posts
20,824
Reaction score
14,841
Location
Chandler, Az
Hardy Brown said:
The defense is broke and needs to be fixed.

I agree for the most part. Last year our defense wasn't very good. We could not stop the run even if our life depended on it. Teams didn't pass on us because they didn't have to. However my question is, how much of that was due to injuries.

I really believe that having Hayes back and having a guy like Clancy up front will really help with stopping the run.
 
Last edited:

kerouac9

Klowned by Keim
Joined
Feb 14, 2003
Posts
38,693
Reaction score
30,525
Location
Gilbert, AZ
Hardy Brown said:
But then aren't you taking a strength (covering TEs), and then making in a weakness? Especially when pressure on the QB is already going to be better because of personnel returing from injury?

All that matters is that the TE gets covered, Kerouac. Wouldn't you agree? Who cares HOW he gets covered. All that matters is that he does. There are many different ways to cover the TE.

In regard to your comment on pressure: think of using the plague of every offensive coordinator - the zone-blitz.

Imagine, if you will, a SAM-backer teams cannot block with a running back or TE. If teams cannot block a backer with a running back or TE they must block big-on-big all the way across the line-of-scrimmage and use the back to pick-up other line-backers.

Imagine the center calling out, "Solid...solid," informing his mates to block big-on-big. Not only is this a problem for the center (being on an island against a defender with the shortest route to the Q) but who's to say all five of those players will actually rush the passer. Why not bring Pace, drop Dockett, rush the other three and play zone behind it? (or any combination thereof) Why not have a tackle "set" on Pace (whom they cannot block with a TE or RB), rush the other four lineman and have Pace drop into a zone (being played by the rest of the secondary)? The tackle would then, in affect, be setting on air, wasted in the protection (with the center still on an island).

Why change what's obviously working? Putting Dansby on the weakside isn't going to make our run defense any better.

I don't think our defense really "worked" last year. Finishing number eight in the NFL in total defense is a BIG misnomer. The defense didn't give up a ton of yardage because they were operating on a short-field much of the time. This can be directly linked to two primary truths:

1) The Cardinals were the third worst team in the league in turnover-margin (-11). Because of this, many teams got the ball in our territory.

2) Our special teams were so atrocious last year that field position was always a MAJOR problem. We couldn't punt the ball (net) well and usually did it backed up because our offense was inconsistent at best. Teams played on a short-field. Our kickoff-cover was horrible, dead last in the league (by far), which consistently placed opposing offenses on a shorter field.

If you want to know how mightily our defense struggled in 2005, look at our scoring defense rank: #27. We could not consistently stop an offense when we had to and the reason we finished number eight in total defense was because of the short-field.

The defense is broke and needs to be fixed.

I respectfully (but completely) disagree with your assumption that Dansby at WLB won't improve our rush-defense. We shall see...

Hardy, I have a lot of respect for your position, but I don't think we're going to agree on this. What was working was our pass defense against tight ends and running backs--that's a statistical fact. What wasn't working was our perimiter pass defense and our rushing defense up the middle. Why wasn't that working? Because we were blitzing all the time because our primary pass rusher was on IR in Berry and our secondary pass rusher Dockett was forced to play out of scheme because Russell Davis was useless when he was on the field and the tackles were nothing special once Davis was off it.

Now, you seem to be really sold on getting pressure in the backfield by adding Pace. That seems to be the primary importance to you. But we're going to have added pressure both on the perimiter (by the return of Bertrand Berry) and on the inside (by allowing Dockett to play the three-technique again and the addition of Clancy, who is a much better pass rusher than anyone we've had in a while beside Dockett). Also, the run defense should be improved in the middle with the addition of Clancy and the re-emergence of Dockett as well as a hopefully healthy and effective Gerald Hayes as well as a better MLB rotation with Hayes-Darling-Mitchell sharing snaps and everyone staying fresh.

As you said, a D-coordinator would much rather have his front four be able to generate pressure and then free up this back 7 to make plays. That's what we have right now in our defensive line rotation. Who's going to be better able to make plays in space: Orlando Huff/James Darling and Dansby or Calvin Pace and Dansby? You know that it's Huff and Darling.

I don't object to Pace being a subpackage player, but MCD is suddenly promoting him to the starter's role, when even Ron Wolfley, in an article pimping this busted draft pick, admitted that the guy can't drop back and cover, and won't be asked to. Clancy Pendergast asks his players to cover, and if you put a liability into coverage, then you take away guy's like Adrian Wilson's ability to make play.

It doesn't matter whether or not a TE is able to block Calvin Pace if that TE is making a 17-yard catch over Pace's head. Pace has been a liability on the field since he came here; we shouldn't compound that liability by putting him into a starter's role that he obviously isn't able to play.

I agree with you that as a zone-blitz weapon in modified five-man fronts for eight plays a game, Pace can be an effective change-up at SLB. He presents intriguing options, but you're limiting your other playmakers on that side of the field (namely Okeafor, Rolle, and Wilson--the latter two are expected to be Pro Bowl players sooner rather than later and all three far superior talents to Calvin Pace) to "cover up" for a guy that can only play one direction if you have Pace out there on 2/3 of the defensive downs or better.
 

JeffGollin

ASFN Icon
Joined
May 14, 2002
Posts
20,472
Reaction score
3,056
Location
Holmdel, NJ
K9 - I think you have valid points and so does "Hardy."

But that's what training camp is for. If Pace proves he can handle coverage at SLB and Dansby proves he can handle the WILL position, you make the change. If not, you go to Plan B or C.

Also - I don't agree that it's "a statistical fact" that last year our defense was excellent covering RB's and TE's. I always considered this aspect of our defense a vulnerability. Maybe the stats don't reflect my views and we were able to compensate for this weakness by overadusting some other area of our "D", but I never felt comfortable dealing with teams who could throw a Jeramy Stevens and a Shawn Alexander at us at the same time.
 

joeshmo

Kangol Hat Aficionado
Joined
Feb 23, 2004
Posts
17,247
Reaction score
1
JeffGollin said:

Also - I don't agree that it's "a statistical fact" that last year our defense was excellent covering RB's and TE's. I always considered this aspect of our defense a vulnerability. Maybe the stats don't reflect my views and we were able to compensate for this weakness by overadusting some other area of our "D", but I never felt comfortable dealing with teams who could throw a Jeramy Stevens and a Shawn Alexander at us at the same time.

Not sure were were we rank in the RB recieving D but we were 1st in the league against TE's.

We only allowed 54 catches, 507 yards, 9.38 average, and 2 TD's. Tops in all 4 areas. 22 TE's last year with 20 or more catches averaged more then 9.4 yards per catch. We played against those guys in 10 of our games. That is the best passing TE D over the last 10 years. As for Stevens we held him to 5 catches and something like 50 yards and 0 TD's.

Again not sure about RB's but we held them to 56 catches, 426 yards, 7.61 average, and 0 TD's. Sounds pretty good
 

HeavyB3

Unregistered User
Joined
Mar 11, 2003
Posts
8,499
Reaction score
62
Location
Hicktown, AKA Buckeye, AZ
Jetstream Green said:
Blackstock had the skills in college, hopefully last year wasn't what we should expect from him in the future.

Explain.

In limited playing time I thought Blackstock played well, especially in that second st louis game.
 

Hardy Brown

Rookie
Joined
May 6, 2006
Posts
67
Reaction score
0
Hardy, I have a lot of respect for your position, but I don't think we're going to agree on this. (I agree and that's cool, Kerouac.) What was working was our pass defense against tight ends and running backs--that's a statistical fact. (This is such an ambiguous statement: just because teams weren't completing passes to TE's and RB's doesn't mean they weren't wripping up the corners. Opposing offenses picked on our corners and pounded the football, taking the path of least resistence. They didn't have to worry about TE's and RB's.) What wasn't working was our perimiter pass defense (Because teams knew where the Cardinals weakness was.) and our rushing defense up the middle. (Up the middle, to the tight-end, the weakside perimeter and all points in between.) Why wasn't that working? Because we were blitzing all the time (Putting our corners in man-cover, as well as confuse run-down blocking-schemes)) because our primary pass rusher was on IR in Berry (Only half the year. Why was the defense getting ripped up early in the year?) and our secondary pass rusher Dockett was forced to play out of scheme (He continued to play the 3-technique in a 4-3 Under defense.) because Russell Davis was useless when he was on the field (Russell Davis was the best run-stopper the Cardinals had - by far! In fact, if you want to make a case for Dockett's demise, most football people I know would tell you it was because Russell Davis was no longer playing the 1-technique next to Dockett.)and the tackles were nothing special once Davis was off it. (Russell Davis was useless? >>>>>>>>>>>>

Now, you seem to be really sold on getting pressure in the backfield by adding Pace.
(Do not make assumptions as to my understanding. Our front seven is light and we are in dire need of size. I'd like to see a front-seven that can stop the run in the NFL. Having a 235 lb. Sam is not going to help us do that. In addition, since when is it a bad thing to want to get pressure on the quarterback?) That seems to be the primary importance to you. (See above.) But we're going to have added pressure both on the perimiter (by the return of Bertrand Berry) and on the inside (by allowing Dockett to play the three-technique again (He never stopped playing the 3-technique.) and the addition of Clancy, who is a much better pass rusher than anyone we've had in a while beside Dockett - (Don't be so sure. Based on this week in Flagg, I can name three back-ups that rush the passer better than Clancy - or Dockett for that matter.)). Also, the run defense should be improved in the middle with the addition of Clancy and the re-emergence of Dockett as well as a hopefully healthy and effective Gerald Hayes as well as a better MLB rotation with Hayes-Darling-Mitchell sharing snaps and everyone staying fresh. (Lets hope it is improved across the board.)

As you said, a D-coordinator would much rather have his front four be able to generate pressure and then free up this back 7 to make plays.
(Not playing pure man, playing zone and variations thereof.) That's what we have right now in our defensive line rotation. Who's going to be better able to make plays in space: Orlando Huff (Did you see this guy play last year?) /James Darling (Wouldn't you rather have Dansby over Huff and Darling at WLB - a playmaker in a playmaking position.) and Dansby or Calvin Pace and Dansby? (Yes, Calvin Pace and Dansby.) You know that it's Huff and Darling. (You know the Sam-backer plays on the LOS. Football is NOT just about "playing in space." How about preventing opposing players from getting in space?)

I don't object to Pace being a subpackage player, but MCD is suddenly promoting him to the starter's role, when even Ron Wolfley, in an article pimping this busted draft pick, admitted that the guy can't drop back and cover, and won't be asked to.
(Kerouac, with all due respect, why do you continue to ignore the many coverages a team can run that does not include locking the Sam-backer up in man on the TE? How do you think teams play Tony Gonzalez? How do you think teams play Antonio Gates? Do you think Clancy Pendergast will lock-up Dansby on these guys? No way.) Clancy Pendergast asks his players to cover, and if you put a liability into coverage, (He's only a liability if you ask him to cover a good TE in MAN.) then you take away guy's like Adrian Wilson's ability to make play. (Explain this, please? Why does this negate Wilson's ability to make a play? By the way, the "knock" on Adrian Wilson and the suspected reason he does not get voted to the Pro Bowl deals with his lack of playmaking ability at the safety position! Leading the league in sacks, let alone his own team, IS NOT going to get a safety voted to the Pro bowl.)

It doesn't matter whether or not a TE is able to block Calvin Pace if that TE is making a 17-yard catch over Pace's head.
(Assuming the coverage, once again, is pure MAN. And, I'd offer this: It doesn't matter if the TE is making a 17-yard catch over Pace's head if the offense can just line-up and run the ball into the "strength" of the defense. What is more demoralizing and has a higher percentage of success? Running the football or throwing a 17-yard completion over Calvin Pace's head.) Pace has been a liability on the field since he came here; we shouldn't compound that liability by putting him into a starter's role that he obviously isn't able to play. (Agreed. He has not played well since he came here. What does that have to do with where they're playing him this year, what they want to do with him, and what they think he can handle this year? They, meaning NFL coaches, are pretty excited about what he's been doing. Do you think they want to lose? Do you think they would place him in a scheme where people were doing nothing but completing 17-yard passes over his head?)

I agree with you that as a zone-blitz weapon in modified five-man fronts for eight plays a game, Pace can be an effective change-up at SLB.
(It doesn't matter what you think or agree with or what I think or agree with, it's what the coaches think or agree with. And it's why I'm hearing whispers and warnings of a position change for Karlos Dansby. Right now, they think Pace can do it.) He presents intriguing options, but you're limiting your other playmakers on that side of the field (I don't even understand this. How are you "limiting" them?) (namely Okeafor, Rolle, and Wilson--the latter two are expected to be Pro Bowl players sooner rather than later and all three far superior talents to Calvin Pace) to "cover up" for a guy that can only play one direction if you have Pace out there on 2/3 of the defensive downs or better.

Kerouac, you're not far from the truth. You have knowledge of the game but I believe your dislike of Pace is blinding your judgment. Calvin Pace may fall-flat-on-his-face but today, August 4, 2006, Clancy Pendergast doesn't think he will...
 

az1965

Love Games!
Joined
Jan 23, 2003
Posts
14,760
Reaction score
0
Location
Austin, TX
kerouac9 said:
But we're going to have added pressure both on the perimiter (by the return of Bertrand Berry) and on the inside (by allowing Dockett to play the three-technique again and the addition of Clancy, who is a much better pass rusher than anyone we've had in a while beside Dockett). Also, the run defense should be improved in the middle with the addition of Clancy and the re-emergence of Dockett as well as a hopefully healthy and effective Gerald Hayes as well as a better MLB rotation with Hayes-Darling-Mitchell sharing snaps and everyone staying fresh.
Wow, that is completely different take on Dockett from last year. I remember you bashing Dockett on his run defense. Also, Hayes is totally unproven. That is a lot of confidence on someone has not proven anything yet on the field.
 

RonF

Per Ardua Ad Astra
Joined
May 14, 2002
Posts
2,090
Reaction score
4
Location
Sun City, AZ
Hardy's Comments

I know know how "Grasshopper" felt when he was counselled by the Master. Hardy, I believe you have forgotten more about how the game of football is played than most of us will ever know. You certainly have the big picture in mind when you discuss the game. I'm still mulling over zone blocking on the o-line vs man to man. Great stuff
 

Duckjake

LEGACY MEMBER
LEGACY MEMBER
Joined
Jun 10, 2002
Posts
32,190
Reaction score
317
Location
Texas
(This is such an ambiguous statement: just because teams weren't completing passes to TE's and RB's doesn't mean they weren't wripping up the corners. Opposing offenses picked on our corners and pounded the football, taking the path of least resistence. They didn't have to worry about TE's and RB's.)

The Cards didn't exactly face the NFL's stellar TE's last year. There's a reason 3 of the 4 NFC West teams took big name TE's in this years draft. Things change with the three rooks, DAVIS, KPLFNER, and POPE. But last year the division was really weak at that position.
 

joeshmo

Kangol Hat Aficionado
Joined
Feb 23, 2004
Posts
17,247
Reaction score
1
Duckjake said:
The Cards didn't exactly face the NFL's stellar TE's last year.

9 of our games last year were against a top 15 TE. 4 in the top 10.

2 top 15 TE's came in the same game against Tenn.
 
Top