How long does Whis get?
- Thread starter nashman
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THESMEL
Smushdown! Take it like a fan!
I like Whiz but he needs to get some coaching talent outside his comfort zone - take responsibility for his staff and team and personell decisions- CAUSE HE HAS THE BIG BUCKS< CARROTS AND STICKS!
He needs to stay balanced - I'm sick of getting fundementally whipped regularly- He did better this game- and Kolb still didn't survive. WE lost 1 where feely should have made the kick- after hitting a 61 for fun!
We looked fundementally sounder-
He needs to stay balanced - I'm sick of getting fundementally whipped regularly- He did better this game- and Kolb still didn't survive. WE lost 1 where feely should have made the kick- after hitting a 61 for fun!
We looked fundementally sounder-
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nashman
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Of course he is not going anywhere wouldn't expect him too this organization waits until its too late to make decisions. Again for those of you who can't read the question was more of how long do you guys give him before you stop believing in him? I have been a cards fan for many years and know the ineptitude of this organization and wouldn't expect anything less than them letting them go down the crapper before making a move. But Whis should be a man and fire the people who aren't getting it done friends or not!
I think some people are overreacting to what Nashman is saying. I think what he is saying is how long do you wait before replacing Wiz becomes a topic of conversation if he continues to coach in the manner he does now.
I don't think many would disagree that Wiz certainly has contributed to the present day status of the offense. Coming from Pittsburgh as an OC he was suppose to perk up the offense and install a system that would be based on running the ball and build a smash mouth team that could also beat you in the air if you stacked the line. He has surely not built the team this way. In fact many of us still don't know what it is he is building here. The offense is so disjointed and so mismatched it appears that someone just threw stuff against a wall and used what stuck.
We have a West coast QB playing in some system I certainly don't understand and does not play to the QB's strengths. We have a OL that doesn't do anything well. We have RBs who, well I'm not sure what they do. Though they do spend a lot of time being hurt so they either can't contribute at all of go at far less than 100%.
We have one great WR and after that we have what appears to be many possession receivers when we desperately need one that can stretch the field since it seems that our offense is partially built around being able to do that.
We have TEs that can't block or chip for the most part yet are not used enough in the passing game.
Offensive play calling has been offensive and at times downright ugly. Time management still is an issue.
The drafts have been spotty at best and apparently building an offensive line is not considered an area of high importance based upon the free agent acquisitions and draft choices. Yes talent is important however this staff led by Wiz has been influential in selecting that talent this team presently has. You can't just say well they don't have the talent to execute what they are trying to do when the coaches helped pick who they have now.
Lastly there has been little or no movement made to adjust what you are doing offensively to at least better fit what you do have to work with. A good example is the thread that discusses LSH. Why would you continue to run a guy like LSH up the gut when even the most casual fan knows its a poor decision at best. LSH has neither the build nor the strength to run inside especially with a line that can't open gaping holes for him to run through. These types of decisions are head scratchers.
If the offense continues to languish in lower level mediocrity for the next year or so then you really have to start asking do you replace Wiz or do you take away his ability to influence the offense and tell him there will be major changes on the offense's staff and you will not be a major part of selecting who the new coaches are.
I don't think many would disagree that Wiz certainly has contributed to the present day status of the offense. Coming from Pittsburgh as an OC he was suppose to perk up the offense and install a system that would be based on running the ball and build a smash mouth team that could also beat you in the air if you stacked the line. He has surely not built the team this way. In fact many of us still don't know what it is he is building here. The offense is so disjointed and so mismatched it appears that someone just threw stuff against a wall and used what stuck.
We have a West coast QB playing in some system I certainly don't understand and does not play to the QB's strengths. We have a OL that doesn't do anything well. We have RBs who, well I'm not sure what they do. Though they do spend a lot of time being hurt so they either can't contribute at all of go at far less than 100%.
We have one great WR and after that we have what appears to be many possession receivers when we desperately need one that can stretch the field since it seems that our offense is partially built around being able to do that.
We have TEs that can't block or chip for the most part yet are not used enough in the passing game.
Offensive play calling has been offensive and at times downright ugly. Time management still is an issue.
The drafts have been spotty at best and apparently building an offensive line is not considered an area of high importance based upon the free agent acquisitions and draft choices. Yes talent is important however this staff led by Wiz has been influential in selecting that talent this team presently has. You can't just say well they don't have the talent to execute what they are trying to do when the coaches helped pick who they have now.
Lastly there has been little or no movement made to adjust what you are doing offensively to at least better fit what you do have to work with. A good example is the thread that discusses LSH. Why would you continue to run a guy like LSH up the gut when even the most casual fan knows its a poor decision at best. LSH has neither the build nor the strength to run inside especially with a line that can't open gaping holes for him to run through. These types of decisions are head scratchers.
If the offense continues to languish in lower level mediocrity for the next year or so then you really have to start asking do you replace Wiz or do you take away his ability to influence the offense and tell him there will be major changes on the offense's staff and you will not be a major part of selecting who the new coaches are.
We are 4-2 despite having no qb and an oline in shambles.
Chargers fired 14_2 or 12_4 shottenheimer. Bad move.
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I notced fine clock management and 2nd half adjustments all year
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They fired him because he never got past the first playoff game. Great regular season records and total failure come playoffs.
Jetstream Green
Kool Aid with a touch of vodka
If your asking how long he gets but he should not be fired now...well, why then bring it up? There are so many intangibles involved with it, and then the simple fact of not knowing who are you going to find that will do a better job in the future to even make it worth discussing at the present imo. Doing a 'let's have a death watch' for the coaches' job at the moment is sort of unusual to me.
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conraddobler
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This organization is too tolerant of failure and dosen't insist on upgrades at the pace it should.
On the other hand there's something to be said for letting someone do a job and do it how they see fit.
The O line fiasco as I have grown to call it, well it's hard to say exactly how that has unfolded, who thought we were headed in the right direction there? Who's drafting these guys on the O line? Who's asking for more talent and being ignored if anyone and why? Who's idea was it to go with Levi and why?
These are the questions I'd ask if I took over as GM, I'd need to know who's ultimately responsible for this to make any call on who if anyone needs to go.
Ultimately it always sorts itself out, the question everyone should be asking is not when CKW will be fired it's who would the alternative be?
CKW is not the best coach in the NFL, but he's certainly not the worst, the only way you fire a guy like that is if you have a better idea or different vision from him.
Ask the Chiefs if they'd rather have him then who they have, I bet they would.
So what the Cardinals would do is not the same question is what they should do etc. Personally I'd be looking in a different direction, simply because I believe there are better visions out there of how to build a football team from the ground up.
I believe there are better HC's out there who build better staffs, who have better strategies for winning games consistently and ultimately winning the SB, that's what I'd want if I was making the call and I'd be as patient with CKW as I had to be until a better option presented itself.
Would I settle on him? Would I figure that was the best I could do?
No.
So if I took over as GM tomorrow my plan would be to get someone better for the long term when the opportunity presented itself. Incidentally that's the plan forever! You have to pick a horse to an extent for sure, you have to guard your rep as someone who dosen't just abandon someone at the first sign of trouble but a guy like CKW isn't irreplaceable, he's upgradeable, you don't do this lightly or without a lot of thought but you do IMO do it if you have the chance.
Harbaugh would be an example of a guy I would of liked for the job, now he may have been unrealistic, hard to say who would or would not take the job given who we are and our reputation, that would have to be a factor, maybe, and it's somewhat possible, the best we can do is CKW, I don't really believe that but I do understand it could be much worse easily.
Now what the Cardinals will do is probably go with him until he starts losing regularly, to me that's just managing not to lose instead of building a champion but that's just my opinion.
On the other hand there's something to be said for letting someone do a job and do it how they see fit.
The O line fiasco as I have grown to call it, well it's hard to say exactly how that has unfolded, who thought we were headed in the right direction there? Who's drafting these guys on the O line? Who's asking for more talent and being ignored if anyone and why? Who's idea was it to go with Levi and why?
These are the questions I'd ask if I took over as GM, I'd need to know who's ultimately responsible for this to make any call on who if anyone needs to go.
Ultimately it always sorts itself out, the question everyone should be asking is not when CKW will be fired it's who would the alternative be?
CKW is not the best coach in the NFL, but he's certainly not the worst, the only way you fire a guy like that is if you have a better idea or different vision from him.
Ask the Chiefs if they'd rather have him then who they have, I bet they would.
So what the Cardinals would do is not the same question is what they should do etc. Personally I'd be looking in a different direction, simply because I believe there are better visions out there of how to build a football team from the ground up.
I believe there are better HC's out there who build better staffs, who have better strategies for winning games consistently and ultimately winning the SB, that's what I'd want if I was making the call and I'd be as patient with CKW as I had to be until a better option presented itself.
Would I settle on him? Would I figure that was the best I could do?
No.
So if I took over as GM tomorrow my plan would be to get someone better for the long term when the opportunity presented itself. Incidentally that's the plan forever! You have to pick a horse to an extent for sure, you have to guard your rep as someone who dosen't just abandon someone at the first sign of trouble but a guy like CKW isn't irreplaceable, he's upgradeable, you don't do this lightly or without a lot of thought but you do IMO do it if you have the chance.
Harbaugh would be an example of a guy I would of liked for the job, now he may have been unrealistic, hard to say who would or would not take the job given who we are and our reputation, that would have to be a factor, maybe, and it's somewhat possible, the best we can do is CKW, I don't really believe that but I do understand it could be much worse easily.
Now what the Cardinals will do is probably go with him until he starts losing regularly, to me that's just managing not to lose instead of building a champion but that's just my opinion.
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Whis' biggest mistake is sticking with his boy Grimm.
The biggest issue on this team is and has been the Oline. The reason the system doesn't work is because QBs have no time to throw. Guys are open, but the rush is in the QBs face or has flushed him out most plays.
Watching almost every other team make a huge pocket so their QB can scan their tree and let plays develop really underscores how bad our oline is. And other olines are patched up too. We are consistently bad there, healthy or no.
Grimm's feet are not held to the fire, and if he were a nobody coach he'd have been bounced already.
This is Whis' biggest mistake, and it poisons the entire team and makes his system look like a joke. His system may work, but without a QB like warner who doesn't need a good oline, it's not given a chance to show how it could work.
The biggest issue on this team is and has been the Oline. The reason the system doesn't work is because QBs have no time to throw. Guys are open, but the rush is in the QBs face or has flushed him out most plays.
Watching almost every other team make a huge pocket so their QB can scan their tree and let plays develop really underscores how bad our oline is. And other olines are patched up too. We are consistently bad there, healthy or no.
Grimm's feet are not held to the fire, and if he were a nobody coach he'd have been bounced already.
This is Whis' biggest mistake, and it poisons the entire team and makes his system look like a joke. His system may work, but without a QB like warner who doesn't need a good oline, it's not given a chance to show how it could work.
and they have been even worse ever since. All you can ask for is playoff births, anyone can win that makes it there. You do not fire coaches who are winning, especially in that scenario. Whiz is nowhere near what was happening there right now and Id still keep him.
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Or he was fired because A J Smith had no intention of sharing the power in that organization. Marty was hired by Butler, he was never Smith's guy and they clashed from the beginning. Actually, they clashed while Smith was in a lesser role and it got worse when he became the GM. Marty lost both his DC and his OC to Head Coach positions following that 14 win season and wanted to hire his brother to replace Wade Phillips. Smith told him not to interview him, Marty interviewed him and Spanos ended up having to choose between the two guys. I think if your explanation was correct, Norv Turner would have been fired several times already.
Steve
I had forgotten about that whole scenario. Good point.
Very well stated Conrad.
TJ
Frank Kaminsky is my Hero.
If the team finishes under .500 and misses the playoffs, Whiz will be safe; but I think Michael B. will force his hand to make some changes to his coaching staff that he would otherwise not do i.e. firing Grimm and Mike Miller.
Whiz is a great coach and unarguably the best we've had since coming to AZ. His only flaw is his stubbornness, but if he caved into fans' desires, he would have been fired 3 years ago.
Also, if you make the statement that he needs to be terminated, you need to tell me who a better option would be.
Whiz is a great coach and unarguably the best we've had since coming to AZ. His only flaw is his stubbornness, but if he caved into fans' desires, he would have been fired 3 years ago.
Also, if you make the statement that he needs to be terminated, you need to tell me who a better option would be.
Actually makes you wonder if the organization is satisfied with moving from lackluster poor teams to mediocre with bumps of winning every once in a while. I would love to know where Michael Bidwill stands with the success or failure of this franchise. Is the family fat and happy because they are filling seats at UofP stadium and selling a nice quantity of merchandise or are they serious about building a team that can complete for the division title and make runs at the Super Bowl?
Do they even have a long term plan for building a contender? Who is leading this team?
Do they even have a long term plan for building a contender? Who is leading this team?
conraddobler
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The very BEST option would be Whis figuring out who to NOT be so loyal to, loyalty is best EARNED.
That's just completely unpredictable though and forcing someone's hand is never a great option but it's an option if it comes to that.
To me Whis is the kind of guy you might have to do that with, it's you or them, because I want rid of them, not you but if you insist you will go with them.
Trouble with all that is you have no idea if he'll hire someone acceptably better to fill their spots.
Whis came up through coaching but does he have any real idea what being a HC is all about? He probably does now but he's only got X number of years doing it, and it's a MANAGEMENT job not as much football as management and the NFL is bizarre in how they do these things.
Guys can be terrific OC's or DC's and not have a CLUE on how to be a HC. I think Whis has grown into parts fo the role, the leader of the team role he does fine at, the attitude role, stuff like that he's nails but the MANAGEMENT part, the real management of his coaching team part I think he lacks a ton at.
Management coaches some but one of it's prime functions is to put the right people in the right jobs, I think this is where he's getting hammered at.
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chickenhead
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It's a fair question for a message board. Personally I think Whiz is safe for next year almost no matter what. If we finish under .500 after a 4-0 start this year, and then have something like a 3-13 year next season...I don't know.
My nighmare scenario is the above happening, with Horton leaving next season, Whiz fired after the season, and Grimm promoted to some sort of interim HC.
Or the Cards win 4-5 more games this year including a win over the Niners, and everything looks different. It's all idle musing at this point.
My nighmare scenario is the above happening, with Horton leaving next season, Whiz fired after the season, and Grimm promoted to some sort of interim HC.
Or the Cards win 4-5 more games this year including a win over the Niners, and everything looks different. It's all idle musing at this point.
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Sure, it's a fair question for a message board. But, there was a lot more in his initial post than the simple question. Responding to stuff like this is also appropriate for a message board. He's entitled to his opinion and we're entitled to react to it.
His initial post:
Steve
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I don't.
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