I am so sick of Kurt Freaking Warner

[green machine]

The Cards have only had 4 years where their leading passer threw more TD passes than interceptions since Neil Lomax had to retire.

McCown 11-10 in 2004
Plummer 18-14 in 2001
Buerlein 18-17 in 1993
Warner 11-9 in 2005

21-15 is really amazing in that context.

Heck Warner could end up with the best season for a Cardinal passer since Lomax in 1987!

But realistically that just shows how bad Cardinal QBs have been for the past 20 seasons.

Yeah, but what is the overall TD:turnover ratio? Sure, just picks he's OK, but fumbles are just as bad.

 

[Duckjake]

Yeah, but what is the overall TD:turnover ratio? Sure, just picks he's OK, but fumbles are just as bad.

Fumbles were irrelevant to what I was looking at which was 16 of 20 years of QBs throwing more interceptions than TDs. (Not overlooking the fumbles just looking at a sad but true statistic)

Leinart,Blake,Plummer,Esiason,Kreig,Buerlein,Chandler,and Rosie all had seasons where they were the leading passer and tossed more to the other team than TDs to our guys.

Also Dave Brown,Jay Schroeder,and Jim McMahon managed to throw more INTs than TDs for the Cards in part time roles.

Really amazing that Warner hasn't done it yet.

 

[NYCARDS]

This team is a better team because of Warner- no two ways about it. His play, leadership and what he does to help others- including Leinart.

 

[moklerman]

Actually, I'm kind of curious if people would rather:

a) the QB take chances when the team is behind and/or long yardage is needed or

b) the QB throw incomplete or short of first down yardage, punt and rely on the defense

 

[green machine]

Actually, I'm kind of curious if people would rather:

a) the QB take chances when the team is behind and/or long yardage is needed or

b) the QB throw incomplete or short of first down yardage, punt and rely on the defense

I don't mind taking chances when the team is behind or long yardage is needed, but many of Kurt's picks have been on first downs with the team already in scoring range.

Also, the intentional grounding he got today took the team out of field goal range at the end of the first half.

 

[daves]

Damn, I meant to qualify those numbers with "as a starter" distinction. Like Harry said a while back when Leinart went down, a little of Warner is a lot better than a lot of Warner.

Aha, that explains it. I wasn't disputing that Warner fumbles too much, of course!

A couple games after Warner took over as the starter, when discussion of Warner's positive and negative attributes was heating up, i put together a spreadsheet comparing various QB's TD-TO differential, on a per-game and per-attempt basis. I selected an arbitrary group of QBs who have been very good for several years for comparison.

Never got around to posting the details then and won't bother now, but the bottom line is that from 1998-2001 with the Rams, Warner's average (TD-TO)/Att was about +2.5% - on a par with Peyton Manning's career average, and better than Brady's (+2.0% as of game 7 this year), Favre's (+1.0%), Hasselbeck's (+1.2%), McNabb's (+1.5%), etc.

In 2002-2003 with the Rams, Warner's differential went to -4.5%! 2004-2006 with the Giants and Cardinals, it was within a few tenths of -1.0%. This year, after game 7, it was 0.0%... and based on the current 21:21 numbers, it still is.

Another interesting thing i looked at was Fumbles Lost per Sack. Hasslebeck led the pack over his career with 6.2%, followed by Manning at 9.2% and McNabb at 12.2%. Brady came in at 14.3% and Favre at 14.5%.

Warner (after game 7 of this year) was at 15.5% for his career, but interestingly that breaks down to 11.5% from 1998-2001, and 18.7% from 2002-2007. Breaking down Warner's "post-prime" years further, Warner had 11 fumbles vs. 41 sacks from the time he joined the Cardinals in 2005 to the 7th game of this year, or 26.8%!

At some point perhaps i'll factor in the rest of this year's stats, but i don't think doing so will make much difference in trends that are already so apparent.

...dave

 

[Covert Rain]

I don't care if we had the best QB in the league behind this offensive line. They can't open holes or block on a consistent basis. Before Matt got hurt he was looking like he was headed towards a god awful season as well. I just don't blame Kurt here.

 

[moklerman]

29th ranked running game.
28th ranked scoring defense.
31st ranked field goal pct.
32nd in penalties (125) (2nd worst; Green Bay-110)(Best; Seattle-50)
32nd in penalty yards (1,008) (Edge has 1,052 rushing yards)

These are some of the things that I'm sick of.

 

[Totally_Red]

I don't care if we had the best QB in the league behind this offensive line. They can't open holes or block on a consistent basis. Before Matt got hurt he was looking like he was headed towards a god awful season as well. I just don't blame Kurt here.

I guess we can remove the genius future head coach mantle from Russ Grimm. Between Gandy and Brown the past two weeks, I have visions of Oliver Ross all over again. Meanwhile Joe Thomas is playing lights out for Cleveland and Adrian Peterson is headed for Rookie of the Year.

 

[moklerman]

I guess we can remove the genius future head coach mantle from Russ Grimm.

I'm still undecided on how much Grimm could have really done this year. I've been unimpressed with the results, but I also realize that he's been given players that may not fit his scheme(s), injuries and they're all in the first year of a new system.

I'm very disappointed with the lack of improvement from last year but in the end, I'll likely give him until next year to get all of his pieces in place.

 

[Duckjake]

I'm still undecided on how much Grimm could have really done this year. I've been unimpressed with the results, but I also realize that he's been given players that may not fit his scheme(s), injuries and they're all in the first year of a new system.

I'm very disappointed with the lack of improvement from last year but in the end, I'll likely give him until next year to get all of his pieces in place.

I was under the impression that the entire offensive line was picked by the new coaches. Anyone they didn't want was sent to other teams.

Johnson, Gandy, and LBrown were brought in new this season and paid good money. So unless you look at Gandy and Wells as stop-gap players because there wasn't anyone else to acquire then its the coaches own fault they don't have the players that fit their scheme.

My concern is that the line looks worse now than they did early in the season so that doesn't bode well for improvement in the future.

 

[football karma]

Meanwhile Joe Thomas is playing lights out for Cleveland

joe Thomas was gone by the time the Cards picked

 

[cardsfanmd]

I guess we can remove the genius future head coach mantle from Russ Grimm. Between Gandy and Brown the past two weeks, I have visions of Oliver Ross all over again. Meanwhile Joe Thomas is playing lights out for Cleveland and Adrian Peterson is headed for Rookie of the Year.

Joe Thomas is the stud everyone said he would be, but he was gone when we picked. AD has been great, but with a great line. Would he be nice to have, yes. Do we know yet that Levi will not be a bookend for years to come and a multiple pro bowler---NO.

 

[ajcardfan]

Joe Thomas is the stud everyone said he would be, but he was gone when we picked. AD has been great, but with a great line. Would he be nice to have, yes. Do we know yet that Levi will not be a bookend for years to come and a multiple pro bowler---NO.

We were told, post-draft and pre-draft, that Grimm rated Levi higher than Joe Thomas. If both were on the board, we still would've taken Levi. I find that difficult to believe, and disturbing if true.

 

[DeAnna]

The man has scored points with a makeshift line, injured recievers, a weak running game and an injured D that has forced him to try to make too many many in order to stay in games.

I for one respect everything the man stands for, am thankfull for everything he has brought to this team.

Granted, he's a gunslinger and likes to take chances. but I'd still take those negatives, along with all the positives.

 

[Russ Smith]

We were told, post-draft and pre-draft, that Grimm rated Levi higher than Joe Thomas. If both were on the board, we still would've taken Levi. I find that difficult to believe, and disturbing if true.

I never believed it I thought it was all smoke. Maybe they thought they could sucker Cleveland into taking Brown so we'd get Joe? Maybe they were convinced we were taking Brown out of need and wanted to talk him up so they could claim we had him that high no matter what. Who knows but like you said if we really had him rated ahead of Joe it's a concern.

Unless Levi gets MUCH better in the future.

 

[john h]

At least it would be a lot less stress on the heart. I am so damn sick of him pissing away games and then crying on the sideline. How freaking hard is it to tuck the ball or throw it away?

Warner did not lose this game by any means. The interception should have been caught by our receiver. Look to our penalties and DB's if you are looking for a scapegoat. With all our injuries we will be lucky to win a game.

 

[john h]

Yes I do. 6 int's and a fumble in the two biggest games of the year!? Let's not forget about his brain fart in the endzone against San Fran... or his seemingly unwavering desire to throw into triple coverage to scrub backup wr's and te's.

This team just does not have the horses to compete. No one guy to lay it on. It is a total team effort and a case of bad luck with injuries. I thought we would go 8/8 if everyone stayed healthy. Everyone did not stay healthy and I do not think we will make 8/8 now. We have wasted a lot of picks on DB's over the past 10 years but it sure looks like we are going to have to find some either in the draft or FA. I am not longer disappointed as I know we do not have the players. If we win it is an upset from here on out. Even against Atlanta. What does everyone think we learned from this year? That is sort of a key question and also a key to our future.

Warner was really pi----- off with one of the coaches on the sideline. Anyone know what that was all about?

 

[Pariah]

Warner was really pi----- off with one of the coaches on the sideline. Anyone know what that was all about?

I don't know what it was about, but it looks to me like Warner thought the guy was out of line in the conversation. Looks lie he said something like "why are you being such an a-hole about this?"

 

[john h]

This thread reeks of ungratefullness (is that a word?), disrespect and stupidity.

Warner is A BACKUP. Why is that not debateable, duckjake? Because he was #2 on the depth chart when Leinart was active.

How you guys can complain about a backup who has routinely kept us in games is remarkable. Please, all of you geniuses out there, tell me how many backups in the league you would rather have. Leinart loves the guy and credits him with being the best thing that has ever happened to him in football. He is smart and experienced.

To think that Rattay, an assistant HS coach could do better than a guy who is 6 years out of being League MVP is downright hilarious. Yes he has messed up, but to think that there are better backups out there is simply ********.

Also, how can you say you hate a man who you dont even know. I have never heard anyone who knows him say anything other than what a hard worker, great teammate and good friend he is.

I understand about getting pissed off after a loss but this is just moronic.

The man has scored points with a makeshift line, injured recievers, a weak running game and an injured D that has forced him to try to make too many many in order to stay in games.

I for one respect everything the man stands for, am thankfull for everything he has brought to this team and will proundly wear #13 for years to come.

Well put!!!!!!!!!!! Football has always been a team sport. You win and you lose as a team over the long run. Seems we always have to have one person to lay the blame on. Gernerally speaking blame can usually best be laid at the top of the food chain. They put the team together. Injuries is mostly bad luck.

 

[cardsfanmd]

We were told, post-draft and pre-draft, that Grimm rated Levi higher than Joe Thomas. If both were on the board, we still would've taken Levi. I find that difficult to believe, and disturbing if true.

I didn't believe that talk for a second. Anyone who watched Thomas knew he was the real deal. In the future, I would reccommend that you never believe anything said by team officials concerning the draft.

"Believe none of what you hear and only half of what you see"

 

[Skkorpion]

Warner threw to a journeyman in triple coverage at a critical time in the game. That doesn't make me want to castrate him.

The offensive coordinator didn't seem to like it much either, did he?

This 6-8 record is not on Warner. It's on the team. In my opinion, whisenhunt will continue to make the team better.

 

[clif]

I think alot of you guys are missing the point of the thread. My intent was not to lay blame solely on Warner. I was "voicing" my frustration with the play of our QB in the most critical game of the year. In fact the last two games have been atrocious. Anyone with half a brain can recognize that this is a team game and a team loss.

Warner is by far the most celebrated veteran we have and he did not have anything that can be remotely considered a good game. His lack of care for the football is completely unacceptable especially with his experience and the stakes involved. This has been the knock on him for years now and he just does not seem to give a damn.

People keep pointing to the fact that he is our backup QB... so what? How hard is it to take care of the freaking ball when you are under pressure?

There are plenty of other threads talking about all aspects of the game. Why is it so wrong to have a thread about the most important position on the field?

 

[CaptTurbo]

The reason Brown was drafted was because he was a road grader for the run game. Even when we are averaging 5 yards a rush our OC decides to give up on the run game within minutes of the coin flip. Doesnt matter if we have the lead, or behind, good running game or bad he just dumps it.

If we are going to have a pass first offense than Brown was an awful draft pick.

 

[Rivercard]

Even when we are averaging 5 yards a rush our OC decides to give up on the run game within minutes of the coin flip.

Did you not notice the 3 straight running plays near the goal line on our first possession? It looked like we were trying to run more this game and then fell too far behind again.