I don't get it.

[slinslin]

Honestly, if you gave Holmes as many all-oops and pick and rolls as ayton and as many minutes, he would average just as many points with mire rebounds and significantly better defense.

That is beyond laughable.

We are +5 better with Ayton on the court. On the other hand we are worse when Holmes is on the court.

Holmes can't shoot, is a worse rebounder, much worse passer

 

[slinslin]

Its obviously possible ayton becomes better but right now its clear, just watch a Dallas game.

Doncic creates shots, sets up teamates, plays the game like a veteran, hits clutch shots, and rebounds. Hes got all the moves. Ayton looks scared to shoot an open elbow jump shot.

lol!

Doncic also is a turnover machine and the Mavs are -3.4 worse when he is on the court.

 

[slinslin]

Just looking at basic stats, I'd give the edge to Ayton but I don't know about advanced stats. And I don't watch Dallas enough to know how far beyond the stats Luka's impact goes so I have no idea which player is really better right now. But I am annoyed that whenever Ayton's name comes up, the media always seems to jump straight to his shortcomings whereas they seem to only focus on Doncic's great moments.

Ayton destroys Doncic in basically every advanced metric. It is not even close.

 

[slinslin]

The fact you have to couch your argument for Ayton with all that circumstantial rhetoric is telling. Fact is - Doncic looks like a seasoned vet, arguably the best player on his team, and is already impacting games on a consistent basis. Ayton has higher upside but he’s a work in progress. Doncic is the “greater” rookie without much debate.

I didn't know it was possible for the "best player" to have on/off splits that show that his team is performing better without him.

 

[slinslin]

In fairness Ayton has had some impressive numbers but a lot of those were in lopsided losses and he hasn’t really had “great moments” like when Doncic went on an 11 point run singlehandedly. But great moments do not a great career make and I think both players will have terrific careers but we will likely greatly value Ayton more if he reaches the peak of his potential.

what? like when Ayton had 12/8 in the first quarter against Boston? He had a bunch of first quarters like that.

And in our close games Ayton had clutch plays in many of them.

 

[JCSunsfan]

An “energy guy” that rebounds better, blocks more shots, and plays better defense? Id even argue around the rim Holmes is more effective on offense...

Aytons a rook so im not trying to be negative but to say Ayton is blatantly better than Holmes right now i think were lieing to ourselves. Ayton can hit an elbow jump shot but thats about all i can think of that he clearly does better.

Like the tin man up there said - testament to Holmes not necessarily ripping Ayton

Um. No. Does not rebound better and is not more effective on offense anywhere on the court. I love Holmes but this is a bit exaggerated.

 

[JCSunsfan]

An “energy guy” that rebounds better, blocks more shots, and plays better defense? Id even argue around the rim Holmes is more effective on offense...

Aytons a rook so im not trying to be negative but to say Ayton is blatantly better than Holmes right now i think were lieing to ourselves. Ayton can hit an elbow jump shot but thats about all i can think of that he clearly does better.

Like the tin man up there said - testament to Holmes not necessarily ripping Ayton

Good grief. What are you watching? Aytons rebounding is dominant. He catches everything thrown to him. He has demonstrated an advanced post game with back to the basket moves galore. He is an excellent passer and looks for others all the time. And his defense is far more effective than Doncic. I know you are comparing to Holmes at the moment but his defense is still quite effective. Even his switching defense is vastly improved. I get trying to make the point that Doncic is better at the moment, but don’t falsely evaluate Ayton to make your point.

 

[RON_IN_OC]

If we continue to see the effort that Ayton is starting to give, consistently, I think we'll see that RoY race tighten up a lot more down the stretch. He's starting to look more comfortable out there, and actually communicating with Booker, which wasn't always there prior to that reported shouting match between them in the locker room a week or two back.

If the Suns can play better than .500 basketball, the rest of the season, Aytons RoY argument will go a lot further.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

 

[RON_IN_OC]

yes, NashDD, both of your posts are accurate.

but my agreeing that Holmes would have similar stats is more a credit to Holmes than shade on Ayton.
that's why i've been saying they both deserve more playing time and should play together some.

Holmes could be starting on another team.

Didn't Duncan play the 4, while Robinson was still around? And then moved to 5 after Robinson retired?

Can Ayton play 4, with Holmes at 5?

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

 

[95pro]

Yeah i guess all im saying is 90% of aytons points are just point blank alley oops or little push shots at the rim all of which Holmes can do with basically zero offensive moves. But yeah im not hating on Ayton his ceiling is obviously way higher on the offensive side.

Holmes really is a GREAT player. The weird part is it seems like he blocks 3 shots a quarter then i look at the box score and he has like 1 or 2 blks for the whole game...its really weird

It does seem like they do get more blocks than they're being credited for.

 

[Chaplin]

Holmes is a PERFECT example of this board overrating players.

 

[Milgod]

Honestly, if you gave Holmes as many all-oops and pick and rolls as ayton and as many minutes, he would average just as many points with mire rebounds and significantly better defense.

You must be registered for see images attach

 

[Mainstreet]

If the Suns start winning Ayton is going to get some of the love going to Doncic... taking nothing away from Doncic.

I happened to notice the Mavericks have lost four in a row and their next two games are at the Warriors and Trailblazers. The media darling can change in a hurry.

 

[1tinsoldier]

those interjecting Britney Spears and other unwarranted reactions, should have done a simple stat check first:

Per 36 minutes
Pts Reb FG% Ast Blk Stl
18.8 12.3 59 2.8 1.0 0.7
17.3 10.7 66 1.4 2.8 1.3 + more D + more hustle + more energizing teammates

growth potential aside, it's a pretty close call on who would be more productive with the same playing time

(playing with the starters would also help Holmes' +/- stats)

 

[Chaplin]

those interjecting Britney Spears and other unwarranted reactions, should have done a simple stat check first:

Per 36 minutes
pts reb % ast blk
18.8 12.3 59 2.8 1
17.3 10.7 66 1.4 2.8 + significantly more D and hustle

growth potential aside, it's a pretty close call on who would be more productive with the same playing time

Come on. How do you even know that Rashaun Holmes can handle that much playing time? That's why I don't like per 36 stats as an end-all and be-all for a player.

 

[Milgod]

those interjecting Britney Spears and other unwarranted reactions, should have done a simple stat check first:

Per 36 minutes
pts reb % ast blk stl
18.8 12.3 59 2.8 1 .7
17.3 10.7 66 1.4 2.8 1.3 + significantly more D + hustle + energizing teammates

growth potential aside, it's a pretty close call on who would be more productive with the same playing time

So even with a flawed statistic, he averages fewer points and fewer rebounds. So . . .not what you said he'd do.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

those interjecting Britney Spears and other unwarranted reactions, should have done a simple stat check first:

Per 36 minutes
pts reb % ast blk
18.8 12.3 59 2.8 1
17.3 10.7 66 1.4 2.8 + significantly more D and hustle

growth potential aside, it's a pretty close call on who would be more productive with the same playing time

Holmes is playing half the minutes that Ayton is playing and per 36 numbers usually benefit players that play smaller minutes. Also Ayton is playing more of his minutes against starters than Holmes is and that will help Holmes' numbers as well.

 

[95pro]

those interjecting Britney Spears and other unwarranted reactions, should have done a simple stat check first:

Per 36 minutes
pts reb % ast blk stl
18.8 12.3 59 2.8 1.0 0.7
17.3 10.7 66 1.4 2.8 1.3 + significantly more D + hustle + energizing teammates

growth potential aside, it's a pretty close call on who would be more productive with the same playing time

Close numbers but a rebound or two extra could be a huge rebound.
Look I love Holmes and everything he does. BUT you can't have the guy in the game during 4th quarter crunch time. The defense will sag and it'll be like playing 4 on 5. There's also lineup changes throughout the game. Ayton mostly matches up with the starters and Holmes might face lesser opposition from the other teams back ups. Even now as a rookie Ayton is doing better than a guy that much older than him.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Come on. How do you even know that Rashaun Holmes can handle that much playing time? That's why I don't like per 36 stats as an end-all and be-all for a player.

Holmes is an energy guy. He comes in and goes all out for a few minutes. He cannot maintain that production over extended minutes. No way. He is perfect in his present role, but there is no way he would produce what Ayton does as a starter, and def does not have the potential.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Holmes is an energy guy. He comes in and goes all out for a few minutes. He cannot maintain that production over extended minutes. No way. He is perfect in his present role, but there is no way he would produce what Ayton does as a starter, and def does not have the potential.

He also averages 6.1 fouls per 36. His style of play is why he fouls so much and he wouldn't be able to play that style in a starter role because of the fouls.

 

[slinslin]

those interjecting Britney Spears and other unwarranted reactions, should have done a simple stat check first:

Per 36 minutes
Pts Reb FG% Ast Blk Stl
18.8 12.3 59 2.8 1.0 0.7
17.3 10.7 66 1.4 2.8 1.3 + more D + more hustle + more energizing teammates

growth potential aside, it's a pretty close call on who would be more productive with the same playing time

(playing with the starters would also help Holmes' +/- stats)

what a non-sense post

less points, less rebounds, a lot less assists


(playing with the starters would also help Holmes' +/- stats)[/QUOTE]


stats don't grow linearly with his minutes.

If we extrapolated Ayton's stats from the first 20 minutes of his playing time he would probably average 24/16 per 36 just based on how many 10 pts / 6 rebounds type of first quarters he had.


Not to mention Richaun looks like a fish out of the water sometimes when he holds the ball at the top of the key.

Richaun is doing a great job in his role.

 

[Raindog]

He also averages 6.1 fouls per 36. His style of play is why he fouls so much and he wouldn't be able to play that style in a starter role because of the fouls.

Precisely... it's like saying a shutdown relief pitcher should be a starter because they are putting up a sub-2.00 ERA. It's apples and oranges with guys who are effective in smaller roles. With all due respect, if Holmes was a top level talent, someone (like the Sixers) would have installed him as a starter long ago rather than shipping him here.

 

[devilalum]

If Doncic was black he wouldn’t be getting this level of hype. White guys get all overstimulated when white guys are good at things that white guys aren’t usually that good at.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[1tinsoldier]

he averages fewer points and fewer rebounds. So . . .not what you said he'd do.

i only said he'd have "similar stats"

what a non-sense post
less points, less rebounds, a lot less assists

sure, Britney
1.4 less is a "lot less assists"
1.5 less points and 1.6 less rebounds

but roughly 2x as many steals, 3x as many blocks and a better shooting %

He also averages 6.1 fouls per 36

exactly what i'd like from our center
play his ass off and foul out after 36
instead of having games with 1 or none fouls

also, there are both pluses and minuses to playing with starters as well as playing more minutes

it started as a reasonable issue and debate
until a few hard-heads chimed in

chill. and have a happy holiday

 

[Hoop Head]

those interjecting Britney Spears and other unwarranted reactions, should have done a simple stat check first:

Per 36 minutes
Pts Reb FG% Ast Blk Stl
18.8 12.3 59 2.8 1.0 0.7
17.3 10.7 66 1.4 2.8 1.3 + more D + more hustle + more energizing teammates

growth potential aside, it's a pretty close call on who would be more productive with the same playing time

(playing with the starters would also help Holmes' +/- stats)

Ayton gets those numbers while it's projected that Holmes might if given that much time. Ayton plays 30.6 mpg right now, and has his 36 minutes a couple of times this season and likely will again a good amount of times. I'd be shocked if Holmes hits 36 minutes in a game for the remainder of the season and there is a reason for that. Holmes cannot sustain the energy he plays with for that long. He's perfect in his 4-5 minute stretches but anymore than that and he's getting in foul trouble or getting worn out. Even worse than either of those and the opposing team puts their starter back in and Holmes is then outmatched.


Holmes is a really good backup but if he could play 30+ minutes a night then we wouldn't have gotten him for cash, literally, in the offseason. That's what we traded to acquire him from Philly. It's not like Philly didn't need people to backup Embiid either. He would have got them a pick of some sort if he played like this regularly. He's not outplaying the #1 pick from this draft though. He may be outhustling him and that's given him some decent stats because we're a team that is hurting for talent and it's allowed him to produce. If we keep playing well though you can expect to see Ayton's stats to go up and Holmes' to go down because he's just not the sort of player that plays big minutes on a winning team. He helps spell a starter for 15 minutes a night and we're lucky he's done that so well. Inserting him into the starting lineup though would be pushing him beyond what he's capable of doing. He's a modern day Bo Outlaw right now, all energy but little skill.