I don't get it.

[CardsSunsDbacks]

i only said he'd have "similar stats"



sure, Britney
1.4 less is a "lot less assists"
1.5 less points and 1.6 less rebounds

but roughly 2x as many steals, 3x as many blocks and a better shooting %


exactly what i'd like from our center
play his ass off and foul out after 36
instead of having games with 1 or none fouls

also, there are both pluses and minuses to playing with starters as well as playing more minutes

it started as a reasonable issue and debate
until a few hard-heads chimed in

chill. and have a happy holiday

Fouls don't work like that. Rarely would a player that averages that many per 36 actually be able to play 36 minutes. They would constantly be going back to the bench because of foul trouble. Ayton is way too important for our team on the offensive end to be fouling that much.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

If Doncic was black he wouldn’t be getting this level of hype. White guys get all overstimulated when white guys are good at things that white guys aren’t usually that good at.


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This is so patently false. I saw a stat the other day that doncic’s only comps thru this many games in terms of pts/reb/assists were magic, bird, Michael and I believe lebron.

 

[JCSunsfan]

If Doncic was black he wouldn’t be getting this level of hype. White guys get all overstimulated when white guys are good at things that white guys aren’t usually that good at.


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Nah. I don't think so. It's Dallas. It's the hype he had from some at draft time trying to self-fulfill predictions, its the flashy style of play, its the wins for Dallas.

 

[Cheesebeef]

This is so patently false. I saw a stat the other day that doncic’s only comps thru this many games in terms of pts/reb/assists were magic, bird, Michael and I believe lebron.

not to mention, I don't think Doncic is doing things white guys don't usually do. He's getting praise for passing, step back threes. It's not like he's dunking over people.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Nah. I don't think so. It's Dallas. It's the hype he had from some at draft time trying to self-fulfill predictions, its the flashy style of play, its the wins for Dallas.

is it trying to self-fulfill predictions or is he just actually fulfilling those? It's easy to say "Oh, the Mavs had a much better supporting cast, yada yada.." but they've been pretty damn bad for a couple years and made two additions that (Jordan and Doncic) that instantly turned their fortunes around. And Doncic is doing everything... well, except playing great D, but he is stuffing the stat sheet and helping run the team and making big plays leading wins.

Kid's got the goods... a lot of them.

 

[SirStefan32]

This thread highlights the perception problem with the fans and the number one pick. There is a group that believes he is better than Doncic, and then there is a group that believes he is no better than Holmes. It is amazing to me that so many people can't be objective enough to accept that he is not better than Doncic right now, but is still an outstanding player.

People are literally arguing that he is no better than a backup we got from Philli in exchange for nothing.

 

[JCSunsfan]

is it trying to self-fulfill predictions or is he just actually fulfilling those? It's easy to say "Oh, the Mavs had a much better supporting cast, yada yada.." but they've been pretty damn bad for a couple years and made two additions that (Jordan and Doncic) that instantly turned their fortunes around. And Doncic is doing everything... well, except playing great D, but he is stuffing the stat sheet and helping run the team and making big plays leading wins.

Kid's got the goods... a lot of them.

I think its both. There is no doubt that he is a very good player. It is a great year for rookies.

 

[Hoop Head]

This thread highlights the perception problem with the fans and the number one pick. There is a group that believes he is better than Doncic, and then there is a group that believes he is no better than Holmes. It is amazing to me that so many people can't be objective enough to accept that he is not better than Doncic right now, but is still an outstanding player.

People are literally arguing that he is no better than a backup we got from Philli in exchange for nothing.

Ayton has led the Suns to wins against Doncic twice now, so....

Doncic is better this year but I think the bottom will fall out in Dallas sooner than later and they'll miss the playoffs. It'll be interesting to see who would get ROY if Doncic can't get the Mav's to the postseason after a good start for them. I just can't see them sustaining their record for that long. They have a lot of question marks surrounding Doncic. DeAndre Jordan is their #2 right now and that's not a good thing in 2019.

 

[ProdigalSun]

This draft class has been really good so far. Hopefully we look back 20 years from now and can say it was on par with the 1984 draft

 

[SirStefan32]

Ayton has led the Suns to wins against Doncic twice now, so....

Doncic is better this year but I think the bottom will fall out in Dallas sooner than later and they'll miss the playoffs. It'll be interesting to see who would get ROY if Doncic can't get the Mav's to the postseason after a good start for them. I just can't see them sustaining their record for that long. They have a lot of question marks surrounding Doncic. DeAndre Jordan is their #2 right now and that's not a good thing in 2019.

I disagree, but that's a reasonable argument. I think Barnes is clearly their #2, followed by Matthews and Smith, and then Jordan. Their bench unit is also solid. Barnes missed some games, DSJ missed some games. I don't know if they will make playoffs, but they will win plenty of games. Also, Ayton hasn't led the Suns to anything, and this is coming from a guy who really liked Ayton. That is the difference between the two. Doncic is clearly the Mavs' best player who is leading them. Ayton is, at best, Suns third-best player who is doing quite well, but he hasn't been leading them to anything.

 

[SirStefan32]

This draft class has been really good so far. Hopefully we look back 20 years from now and can say it was on par with the 1984 draft

I agree. In addition to Ayton and Doncic, I think Bagley, Young, and JJJ will end up being outstanding players.

 

[1tinsoldier]

This is so patently false. I saw a stat the other day that doncic’s only comps thru this many games in terms of pts/reb/assists were magic, bird, Michael and I believe lebron.

not fair to compare Doncic's 1st NBA season stats with others. He's been playing professional ball for years.

but he will win ROY and deserve it

 

[Sunstroke]

Doncic is really good. Kid can flat-out play, he is incredibly smart, has an extremely advanced game for his age, has a little bit of flash and style to his game, looks kind of dorky, gets excited over everything, and he is helping his team win. Right now, he is a better player than Ayton. Everyone who isn't consumed by some irrational dislike of white European players knew that was the case. Luka is a seasoned pro at the age of 19. There was never a chance in hell that Ayton was going to be better than Luka this year. Outside the few homers, everyone knew this. Suns drafted Ayton for what he is going to be in a couple of years; not for what he is now. While one of them may end up being a better player, neither team is gonna be disappointed with their choice.

I am a huge Luka fan, but I'd pick Ayton every single time if I had to redo the draft 50 times. I am happy with Ayton. Let the media talk about Luka. It may motivate Ayton.

Great post. I agree, Ayton started with a much tougher learning curve to begin this season. And the Mavs are no world beaters so Doncic has had to take a few lumps to start his season as well. Two different positions, two very promising talents. I'd select Ayton every time as well. No regrets by this fan to this pont in the season. Go Suns!

 

[Yuma]

I know some of you disagree, but I still think Doncic is the most NBA ready. I also think Ayton has more upside than Doncic.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I know some of you disagree, but I still think Doncic is the most NBA ready. I also think Ayton has more upside than Doncic.

I think most of us considered that a given.

 

[Mainstreet]

I think most of us considered that a given.

Agreed. There never has been much of a division on the Suns forum who the Suns should draft.

It's been Ayton realizing he will take longer to develop but the better long term choice.

Now there has been division in other forums or downright strong support for Doncic.

 

[BC867]

Holmes is a PERFECT example of this board overrating players.

Because he has been the best and most dependable backup Center we have had in a long time.

As long as Holmes is backup, why would Suns fans compare the rookie Ayton and him? On our team, there doesn't have to be a bad for every good. Let 'em all be good!

The days of three lead Point Guards or two rookie lead Power Forwards are over. We've seen the folly in that. Those are the two positions that we are now the weakest in.

We need both Centers to be good. And it appears they are. Perhaps our best lead and backup Center tandem ever. That is worth repeating. Perhaps our best lead and backup Center tandem ever!

Do you agree with that, Chap? If so, they are not being overrated. If not, what is your reason for describing Holmes as overrated?

Hell, as the rookie Ayton develops, Holmes has been finishing games. Not to punish Ayton. But because Holmes' four years of experience, and his hustle, have helped the Suns go from losers to (4 in a row) winners.

Hallelujah!

 

[Milgod]

i only said he'd have "similar stats"

No you didn't. You said just as many points and more rebounds. So . . .yeah. You even used stats to prove yourself wrong. Sometimes it's just easier to admit you were wrong and move on.

 

[Carolinacacti]

Ayton is going to make it hard for them to give the ROY to Doncic. If Warren and Booker stay healthy, Ayton stats will get better. Plus I agree playing these centers the second time around will be better then the first time.

 

[Krangodnzr]

I think Doncic has a higher floor than Ayton, and that is what we are seeing right now.

Doncic was always going to be better than Ayton from the start because he has been a pro player much longer, but also has been playing organized basketball longer.

I don't care what anyone says, a great center can be the most impactful position on the court, so I think in the long run, that Ayton will better.

Plus I wanted Ayton for a very simple reason:. The Suns have never had a center of his caliber and it was time to break the curse.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I think Doncic has a higher floor than Ayton, and that is what we are seeing right now.

Doncic was always going to be better than Ayton from the start because he has been a pro player much longer, but also has been playing organized basketball longer.

I don't care what anyone says, a great center can be the most impactful position on the court, so I think in the long run, that Ayton will better.

Plus I wanted Ayton for a very simple reason:. The Suns have never had a center of his caliber and it was time to break the curse.

I wanted Ayton even though pre-draft I thought Doncic might well have the better career. But in addition to your reasons (that I agree with) I also thought Ayton was the smarter decision to avoid the backlash for skipping on the big man for a Euro and possible problems that might occur pairing Koko with someone he was so closely linked to. The risk of favoritism claims and such just weren't worth it unless we felt the gap was going to be huge. And now, 30-some games into the season I like the chances of both guys to make the HOF at the end of their careers.

 

[Joe Mama]

Looking forward to tonight's game. Hoping to be able to post a little bit during it. I'm still satisfied with the #1 draft pick and looking forward to seeing some of the improvements I've read about his defense in particular. Not coming in with unreal expectations because I know what I've seen from him so far (first 5 minutes in the summer league through a couple weeks ago off and on). Some measure of improvement will be encouraging though. More than anything I just want to see him give consistent full effort.

Joe

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Because he has been the best and most dependable backup Center we have had in a long time.

As long as Holmes is backup, why would Suns fans compare the rookie Ayton and him? On our team, there doesn't have to be a bad for every good. Let 'em all be good!

The days of three lead Point Guards or two rookie lead Power Forwards are over. We've seen the folly in that. Those are the two positions that we are now the weakest in.

We need both Centers to be good. And it appears they are. Perhaps our best lead and backup Center tandem ever. That is worth repeating. Perhaps our best lead and backup Center tandem ever!

Do you agree with that, Chap? If so, they are not being overrated. If not, what is your reason for describing Holmes as overrated?

Hell, as the rookie Ayton develops, Holmes has been finishing games. Not to punish Ayton. But because Holmes' four years of experience, and his hustle, have helped the Suns go from losers to (4 in a row) winners.

Hallelujah!

I agree with most of what you say but when people think Holmes is better than Ayton that’s overrating.

 

[Western Font]

Simmons said on his latest podcast that he thinks Ayton is an empty stats guy. Meanwhile he uses phrases like “eye test” for Doncic. His mind was totally made up before the draft. Whatever he says now is just to validate that.

Meanwhile Ayton does everything “quietly,”which is a hallmark of everything that’s supposed to be good about him—footwork, balance, and athleticism for his size—but it also gives his critics what they want.

The bottom line is that it’s not zero-sum between Doncic and Ayton. My guess is that they both have great careers.

 

[1tinsoldier]

No you didn't. You said just as many points and more rebounds. So . . .yeah. You even used stats to prove yourself wrong. Sometimes it's just easier to admit you were wrong and move on.

aggressive & lazy are a bad combination
first you post Britney Spears instead of an opinion
then, you bust my basketballs a 2nd time
after i already replied and quoted myself saying "similar stats"?
kindly look back in this thread and find my alleged "as many points and more rebounds" post
OR
as you say, "admit you were wrong and move on"