I don't understand...Isolate Barbosa

[AmareFan]

Wow...has this guy matured or what? I don't understand why D'Antoni took Barbosa out of the game when he was clearly the best 2 players on the court, and he could clearly take anyone on the Pistons team off the dribble...Isolate him!!!! and let him go one on one........what ever happened to the theory of riding the "Hot Hand?" I don't understand.....

If Cotton was coaching, he would have kept Barbosa in the game and ran plays to isolate him.....hell, even Westphal and Ainge would have done the same thing....

I know...could have, would have, should have...and I am not bashing D'Antoni, but come one....run a few isolation plays for Barbosa...

I am so impressed with his play and the production from the bench...we can only dream what it would be like with Amare healthy...imagine....this bench with Amare...unfrickinstoppable....

Please don't trade Barbosa....the Barbosa Fan club is officially open!!!!!!!!!!

 

[sly fly]

Couldn't agree with you more. That was sheer ignorance by D'Antoni.

This team can play D. Unfortunately, it's not happening whenever Nash is on the floor.

It pains me to say it, but the team is playing better when Barbosa is running the show. Nash is getting into the habit of dribbling too much, and depending on beating his defender.

 

[Chaplin]

Are you guys crazy? Rip Hamilton was starting to rip us a new one with Barbosa in, so D'Antoni did the only sensible thing--put the man who had--through 3 quarters--essentially neutralized him. That's not stupid, that's smart coaching. We had the lead, we didn't need offense, we needed defense.

 

[Chaplin]

Couldn't agree with you more. That was sheer ignorance by D'Antoni.

This team can play D. Unfortunately, it's not happening whenever Nash is on the floor.

It pains me to say it, but the team is playing better when Barbosa is running the show. Nash is getting into the habit of dribbling too much, and depending on beating his defender.

I don't know what game you're watching, but Barbosa wasn't doing any "running of the show". He was dynamic out there and a lot of fun to watch, but it wasn't as a point guard.

That said, I thought Nash made some really stupid passing mistakes, he must have had a ton of turnovers all by himself. As for his defense, nobody ever claimed that Steve Nash was a good defender. But to be fair to him, Chauncey couldn't miss no matter how good the defense on him was.

 

[AZ Shocker]

I was thinking the same thing with Barbosa. What the hell man!?!

Coach is trying too hard to settle in on HIS five players to "FINISH" a game. It was pretty obvious Barbosa needed to be in there to break down Detroit's "D", but Coach again showed his "stubborn" hand. Arggghh!

I really like D'Antoni, but right now he's "forcing" it. Needs to step back and get his instincts back and go with what has made him a good NBA coach. Play the "hot-hand" and put the pedal to the metal as they say. Barbosa was having a "career" night!

 

[planaria]

I told you guys that Barbosa has improven a lot this offseason. His game at last American Cup was simply fabulous.

IMO, he´s one of the best pure scorers of his draft class. He yet will be a 20+ ppg guy in NBA if he has a shot.

 

[Joe Mama]

It looks like a mistake now, but I can understand Mike D'Antoni's rationale for replacing Barbosa with Bell. Like Chaplin said, Hamilton was killing Barbosa. Unfortunately for the Phoenix Suns Bell didn't slow him down at the end either.

Joe Mama

 

[jibikao]

It looks like a mistake now, but I can understand Mike D'Antoni's rationale for replacing Barbosa with Bell. Like Chaplin said, Hamilton was killing Barbosa. Unfortunately for the Phoenix Suns Bell didn't slow him down at the end either.

Joe Mama

Nobody could slow them down. Everybody was hitting almost EVERY shot. Open shot, in your face shot... whenever the ball leaves, it it's good. That's how they took over the game.

Defense wise, Pistons couldn't really stop us either. I think we beat ourselves in the end. Our two centers were slow and I don't know how we could afford to NOT box out Ben Wallace so many times.

 

[sly fly]

I don't know what game you're watching, but Barbosa wasn't doing any "running of the show". He was dynamic out there and a lot of fun to watch, but it wasn't as a point guard.

That said, I thought Nash made some really stupid passing mistakes, he must have had a ton of turnovers all by himself. As for his defense, nobody ever claimed that Steve Nash was a good defender. But to be fair to him, Chauncey couldn't miss no matter how good the defense on him was.

You're missing the point. You don't take your best player on the court that night and sit his ass on the bench for the last 6 minutes. And how long have they been trying to get Barbosa to come out of his shell?

Why are you even disagreeing if he ran the show or not? The only thing that matters is Barbosa did not get scored against during the time he sat on the bench for the last half of the quarter.

If Mike D wanted to REALLY go to D, then he needed Barbosa, Diaw, Bell, Marion, and Thomas on the floor.

 

[myrondizzo]

where we were getting burned is the double teaming of diaws man. that is how rip was getting open it wasnt barbosa's fault.

 

[Dustbuster]

Are you guys crazy? Rip Hamilton was starting to rip us a new one with Barbosa in, so D'Antoni did the only sensible thing--put the man who had--through 3 quarters--essentially neutralized him. That's not stupid, that's smart coaching. We had the lead, we didn't need offense, we needed defense.

Fine, put Bell in to cover Hamilton, but don't take Barbosa out. Nash is, has been, and will be a weak link defensively. Our crunch time lineup, IMO, should look something like Barbosa (penetration, scoring), Bell (defensive stopper), JJones (3 point shooting, spot up shooting), Diaw (distribution, defense, slashing), and either Marion or KT (post defense, rebounding, putbacks).

Nash has not been making good decisions late in games, and he is not typically a guy that succeeds in trying to "take over the game". For some crazy reason we change our offensive strategy late in the game, and it has killed us every time.

 

[elindholm]

Our crunch time lineup, IMO, should look something like Barbosa (penetration, scoring), Bell (defensive stopper), JJones (3 point shooting, spot up shooting), Diaw (distribution, defense, slashing), and either Marion or KT (post defense, rebounding, putbacks).

I doubt you're going to get a lot of support for benching the reigning league MVP during crunch time.

 

[Dustbuster]

Our crunch time lineup, IMO, should look something like Barbosa (penetration, scoring), Bell (defensive stopper), JJones (3 point shooting, spot up shooting), Diaw (distribution, defense, slashing), and either Marion or KT (post defense, rebounding, putbacks).

I doubt you're going to get a lot of support for benching the reigning league MVP during crunch time.

I will from 82games.com. Nash is an overall -37 in his plus/minus numbers, the worst on the team. He has been the biggest problem late in the games because he is dominating the ball too much, and, surprisingly, has made some poor decisions. His late-game shooting has been beyond horrendous as well. I don't know if its exhaustion, a lack of a go-to scorer, or some other cause, but at least in my opinion, Steve Nash has been for the most part a liability in last four minutes of almost every game.

 

[nowagimp]

It looks like a mistake now, but I can understand Mike D'Antoni's rationale for replacing Barbosa with Bell. Like Chaplin said, Hamilton was killing Barbosa. Unfortunately for the Phoenix Suns Bell didn't slow him down at the end either.

Joe Mama

This is what Detroit does, they run hard physical screens for Hamilton and other wings. I think if you were to check Bells body for bruises, you would understand. I'll bet he knows what the elbow of Ben Wallace feels like, multiple times. Also there is alot of grabbing or forearming whenever possible, especially off the ball. Thats why some of these guys look like WWF wrestlers. You wear down the opponent with fatigue and bruises. Bell was tough for awhile, but then he stopped making it around the screens. The Wallaces and McDyess actually use forearms in a "blocking motion" as the defenders run around the screens, extending the elbows if necessary to make contact. They use 2 screeners that almost get their feet set(they move) To the NBA this is permissible, physical, play, at least for the last 10 years. The suns need to save their best defenders for the end of the game. D'Antoni also should have had Diaw in with Barbosa, so Barbosa doesnt have to guard hamilton around those screens. You dont want your speed guys to get banged around too much by big 4's,5's.

Every defense out there is using a defensive plan optimized for stopping Nash, thanks Mavericks. With Amare, the plan is iffy because his presence forces defenses to leave the 3pt shooters. When we put reserves in, the plan is no longer optimized and the other team may need personnel, strategy changes. This is why, along with 2nd tier, or tired 1st tier defenders out second unit looks so good. Dont get me wrong though, Barbosa is a very fast guard, as I stated before the game, detroit does not have much speed at guard, they couldnt guard Parker, and they cant guard barbosa either. Detroit changed their defensive plan to adjust for Barbosa and tried to cut off the passing lanes and control ball movement to and from him by "shading him with 2 short range and 1 medium range defenders. At this point, the suns needed to adjust by inserting Diaw, to punish the pistons for cheating on defense(shading Barbosa with 3 guys). Unfortunately, Diaw had been inserted with Nash and was resting. I think the coaching staff needs to insert Diaw at the end of games to ensure that someone gets a good shot. I also think that other teams are banging Nash as often as possible, every time he drives by. Unfortunately, Nash is not a strategic flopper( a la Stockton or Ginnobli) as required by the NBA.

In defense of D'Antoni, I think that he is being forced to play some complex strategy and matchup games and Detroit is a very good team. I just cant believe that he had that group out on the floor to finish the game. Even Doug Collins said: there is nobody out there who can create his own shot! Brilliant deduction Doug. Now the question is why did this not concern D'Antoni?

 

[nowagimp]

Nash has not been making good decisions late in games, and he is not typically a guy that succeeds in trying to "take over the game". For some crazy reason we change our offensive strategy late in the game, and it has killed us every time.[/QUOTE]

You need to look at what is going on on the court, not just the results. Nash is being forced by the defense, and by poor player movement off the ball, to either shoot over a taller defender, or make a poor pass(high risk). Our guys would like to hang around the 3pt line and get the pass. This is made even more of a problem because defender(s) that would usually be used to shade Amari and now cutting off the passing lanes, clamping down on the 3pt shooters(who unlike JJ cannot create their own shot). Our offense is inefficient in this scenario, but a one-on-one player can cause some serious damage with this defensive scheme as Barbosa proved. Also, players that move best without the ball are Barbosa and Diaw, neither of which was in the game at the end. All these plus/ minus stats show is that defenses are set up to isolate Nash and clamp down on the 3pt shooters. Last year, Amare was much more dominant with Nash in the game, and visa versa. What was the Nash plus/minus then? If it was negative, then Amare had a negative plus/minus as well, cause I know that Shawn, Joe and Q were not dishing to him. I dont think so!! I think the answer is that we obviously need more of Diaw and Barbosa at crunch time.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

where we were getting burned is the double teaming of diaws man. that is how rip was getting open it wasnt barbosa's fault.

i don't think that's accurate either. the staggered picks they set for rip were phenomenal. everyone that tried to run through them had no chance. especially if rip was automatic. we needed to switch off into him, and didn't do it.

that said, the end of the game looked exactly like the end of the end of the dallas game. too much on nash's shoulders. and while he's not necessarily playing big minutes he's logging "heavy" minutes. what i mean by that is he's having to do way more each trip down the court than he had to do last season. that's why nash looks exhausted at the end of the game and his shots are all short. he'll burn out in a different way this year unless d'antoni gets smart. he should have left barbosa in WITH nash at the end so that someone else could initiate or get a shot. leaning on nash to get a shot is gonna kill this team.

oh, and marion just continues to disappear at the end.

we'll get a good draft pick this year. i just hope the season doesn't take too much outta steve nash for next year when we should win it all (if amare is close to 100% recovered - i agree with barkley btw, he shouldn't come back this year).

 

[Chaplin]

that said, the end of the game looked exactly like the end of the end of the dallas game. too much on nash's shoulders. and while he's not necessarily playing big minutes he's logging "heavy" minutes. what i mean by that is he's having to do way more each trip down the court than he had to do last season. that's why nash looks exhausted at the end of the game and his shots are all short. he'll burn out in a different way this year unless d'antoni gets smart. he should have left barbosa in WITH nash at the end so that someone else could initiate or get a shot. leaning on nash to get a shot is gonna kill this team.

oh, and marion just continues to disappear at the end.

So let me get this straight--you are angry because Nash does too much himself, but also angry at Shawn who disappears--could it be he disappears BECAUSE Nash tries to do too much by himself? Considering Nash has the ball at the beginning of every possession, Shawn can't do anything if Nash decides not to pass him the ball and shoot it himself.

 

[goldseraph]

Nash had nothing to do with us losing it at the end of the game again. Like the commentators were saying, the suns have NO low post presence. That is what you need at the end of the game to keep the defense honest. Grant and KT are soooo slow, and can't jump. Thus the defense can stay around the perimeter and play a loose zone around our 'post game'. There is also nobody but Nash that can create their own shot out there, so he basically has to create everything from nothing. Try putting Barbosa out there instead in that pressure situation, having to create our offense, I'll be here laughing as he turns the ball over repeatedly.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

So let me get this straight--you are angry because Nash does too much himself, but also angry at Shawn who disappears--could it be he disappears BECAUSE Nash tries to do too much by himself? Considering Nash has the ball at the beginning of every possession, Shawn can't do anything if Nash decides not to pass him the ball and shoot it himself.

i can't disagree with you, but one of the top players on the team should make himself available for the ball. if you watched the game it seemed like no one was working to get themselves free. i know the pistons are a good defensive team, but that's ridiculous. chap, i love marion and think he's an awesome cog in the team, but he shrinks at the end of games. and just pointing out the clinching game against dallas last year doesn't prove anything other than it was the exception to the rule.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Nash had nothing to do with us losing it at the end of the game again. Like the commentators were saying, the suns have NO low post presence. That is what you need at the end of the game to keep the defense honest. Grant and KT are soooo slow, and can't jump. Thus the defense can stay around the perimeter and play a loose zone around our 'post game'. There is also nobody but Nash that can create their own shot out there, so he basically has to create everything from nothing. Try putting Barbosa out there instead in that pressure situation, having to create our offense, I'll be here laughing as he turns the ball over repeatedly.

i'm not pinning it on nash, i'm pinning it on d'antoni. i agree with you. hell, i said after the first game against dallas that our lack of a low post option was going to cost us a LOT of games this year due to our reliance on spot-up shooters and no set offense. depending on nash to make a play every time down the court at the end of games is gonna kill this team. i had hoped that d'antoni would have recognized how different his offense would be without an inside presence, how much easier it would be to defend, and draw up some plays to manufacture easy shots at the end of games when the defensive intensity picks up and you have no go-to guy (and let's face it, w/o amare, we have no go-to guy that can get an easy, high percentage basket or get fouled), but he apparently hasn't recognized that. in fact, it seems he didn't learn anything from the dallas game.

that said i think d'antoni is a good coach when he's got all his pieces to work with. his system is perfect for this team when amare and nash are healthy and playing. but he has not shown a propensity for adapting to adverse situations.

 

[DeAnna]

I thought I heard that Barbosa injured his knee, that's why he was out the last minutes of the game??

 

[planaria]

Nash had nothing to do with us losing it at the end of the game again. Like the commentators were saying, the suns have NO low post presence. That is what you need at the end of the game to keep the defense honest. Grant and KT are soooo slow, and can't jump. Thus the defense can stay around the perimeter and play a loose zone around our 'post game'. There is also nobody but Nash that can create their own shot out there, so he basically has to create everything from nothing. Try putting Barbosa out there instead in that pressure situation, having to create our offense, I'll be here laughing as he turns the ball over repeatedly.

Put Barbosa in pressure situation and he´ll score in the cluntch time or at least learn to do it.

Again, this guy hit 6 three pointers in a row in the final of the last American Cup against Argentines to give the championship to Brazil (Brazil was down by 10 in 3/4). He´s cluntch, he doesn´t need to creat nothing.

 

[playstation]

i'm pissed off because i think i could have done a better job with strategy.

-why double diaw's man in the post? with NASH of all people? that's useless. doubling in the post is the kiss of death against a team that is hot.

-if they couldn't create offense off nash, give it to Diaw in the post! the guy has proven effective at finding the open man, and in the post he can kick out.

these two things frustrated the hell out of me. yes barbosa played great, yes nash did not do great defensively, but strategically, the two points above were the biggest issues imo.

 

[nowagimp]

i can't disagree with you, but one of the top players on the team should make himself available for the ball. if you watched the game it seemed like no one was working to get themselves free. i know the pistons are a good defensive team, but that's ridiculous. chap, i love marion and think he's an awesome cog in the team, but he shrinks at the end of games. and just pointing out the clinching game against dallas last year doesn't prove anything other than it was the exception to the rule.

We have to consider Marions capabilities. Do you really want him shooting a contested outside shot at the end of the game? Marion needs the ball, on the run, within 15 feet of the basket. He cannot dribble penetrate through a sagging defense from the perimeter(18-20 feet), due to his ball handling deficiencies(can you say JJ?). Marion also cannot be expected to rise over the pistons big men for an alley oop(they'll take his legs out). The absence of Amare may hurt Marion more than our 3pt shooters. Marion is a player with unique talents and deficiencies. Don't expect him to be something he isn't. He cant change like a chameleon just because somebody gets injured. Besides, detroit's defense can make almost any one offensive option disappear... but not Amare, no one can do that!

 

[nowagimp]

i'm pissed off because i think i could have done a better job with strategy.

-why double diaw's man in the post? with NASH of all people? that's useless. doubling in the post is the kiss of death against a team that is hot.

-if they couldn't create offense off nash, give it to Diaw in the post! the guy has proven effective at finding the open man, and in the post he can kick out.

these two things frustrated the hell out of me. yes barbosa played great, yes nash did not do great defensively, but strategically, the two points above were the biggest issues imo.

Once again, I almost entirely agree with you (you must know some basketball strategy, or we're both hopeless). I was more frustrated last night than today. Now I'm thinking that I'm willing to give these coaches a little time before I write them off. Let the player rotations( are there player politics involved here, probably!) stabilize. The encouraging thing is that our bench(and Diaw) is outplaying everyone elses. There were so many ways that we could have won this game, that its encouraging. They needed lights out shooting, including 3 pointers and strategy mistakes at crunch time from our coaches to win this game. I think we may lose 10 more winnable close games this year before our players and coaches settle in. Hopefully, we can adapt before the tough part of the schedule hits.