I Got Bad News: The Trade Has Made Us Worse.

[btimsah]

I was one of the people who supported the trade, primarily because I don't like ego-ridden players like Marion. But upon further review there is something I did not consider.

Shaq right now is averaging what, 5 points a game? Marion, when he was with us was averaging what? 17 pts per game? and he also was able to better able stop the leagues best guard/forwards in the game.

Shaq isn't scoring like Marion did, and he doesn't defend the scorers outside at all. So as a result were giving up more points because Shawn isnt here to defend on the perimeter AND were scoring less because Shaq doesn't score like Shawn does. Combine that with the fact that Nash and Bell have been struggling and we have what we have. We'd often complain about Marion's 3 pt shooting, but he made most of his points inside with easy layups, dunks and at the foul line. Stoudemire and Shaq are lucky to make layups half the time. I've never seen so many easy put back misses!

With all of this being said, I still support the trade but it won't work till next season when they are gonna have to reshuffle this roster big time. If Nash even comes back.

 

[Suns_fan69]

It's no secret that this trade has made us worse, but we all knew this would happen. Adjusting to a presence like Shaq isn't gonna happen overnight, but I don't think anyone expected it would take quite this long.

Nevertheless there is still time but it's been hard to watch so far. I'll give it another 5 games or so before I call this a complete disaster.

Either way I still give Kerr credit for having the cajones to making this move.

 

[Ode to Ocho]

Everyone knew this trade made no sense whatsoever. But then Shaq put on his gameface during his press conference and bamboozled the media. I have never seen Michael Wilbon backpedal that fast in my life.

 

[green machine]

Good thing you researched the stats and numbers to put into your post, because I'd hate to see your credibility questioned because you were wrong there.

 

[pokerface]

Here is another no "secret".....

With Marion the Suns wern't going to the finals. We were consistanly losing to good teams.

Shaq hasnt been playing most the season and is on a new team.

The physical and slowed down nature of the playoffs is more suited for Shaq than Marion


If the Suns dont make the playoffs and this experiment fails I could care less. The Suns were boring this season and not impressive...their playoffs would have been brief.

Better for the Suns to have tried and failed then to not try at all and stay with the status quo.

 

[btimsah]

Good thing you researched the stats and numbers to put into your post, because I'd hate to see your credibility questioned because you were wrong there.

If you can read, you should have noticed the question marks around those numbers suggesting they were estimates.

Estimates I'm comfortable with as well.

 

[MiamiHeat]

Here is another no "secret".....

With Marion the Suns wern't going to the finals. We were consistanly losing to good teams.

actually, that is wrong. The defending NBA champions, San Antonio Spurs, should have been eliminated by the Phoenix Suns last year. The Robert Horry fiasco and the subsequent ejections is the cause of failure.

If they could eliminate San Antonio, and San Antonio went on to win the championship vs Cleveland, then logic concludes the Suns would have been NBA Champions last year. Suns > Cleveland last year.

 

[Michael]

actually, that is wrong. The defending NBA champions, San Antonio Spurs, should have been eliminated by the Phoenix Suns last year. The Robert Horry fiasco and the subsequent ejections is the cause of failure.

If they could eliminate San Antonio, and San Antonio went on to win the championship vs Cleveland, then logic concludes the Suns would have been NBA Champions last year. Suns > Cleveland last year.

I think we're forgetting about Utah here. The Jazz were one of the match-ups we feared most last years, if I remember correctly.

 

[pokerface]

actually, that is wrong. The defending NBA champions, San Antonio Spurs, should have been eliminated by the Phoenix Suns last year. The Robert Horry fiasco and the subsequent ejections is the cause of failure.

If they could eliminate San Antonio, and San Antonio went on to win the championship vs Cleveland, then logic concludes the Suns would have been NBA Champions last year. Suns > Cleveland last year.

Uhh...that was last season. What bearing does that have on anything? The west is tougher this year....much tougher. Plus the Suns didnt seem as good with Marion losing to weastern teams consistantly.

 

[dodie53]

Here is another no "secret".....

With Marion the Suns wern't going to the finals. We were consistanly losing to good teams.

Shaq hasnt been playing most the season and is on a new team.

The physical and slowed down nature of the playoffs is more suited for Shaq than Marion


If the Suns dont make the playoffs and this experiment fails I could care less. The Suns were boring this season and not impressive...their playoffs would have been brief.

Better for the Suns to have tried and failed then to not try at all and stay with the status quo.

i agree with you.

atleast the FO had the balls to pull that kind of trade.

but,
everything is not lost yet,
the Suns can still make a turn around.

 

[pokerface]

i agree with you.

atleast the FO had the balls to pull that kind of trade.

but,
everything is not lost yet,
the Suns can still make a turn around.

Yeah there is a ways to go yet. I admit its not looking good right now but lets just hope the Suns don't freefall for too long.

Heck the west is so tough this year it might be an honor to even get in at 8th seed. I've never seen anything like this.

 

[BC867]

As has been said in other posts, as long as Amare and Diaw are still covering Center, and as long Shaq is playing Center at the high-post, the transition to Shaq has not been made.

With the current roster, Shaq and Skinner at Center and a rotation of Amare, Grant Hill and Diaw at the Forward positions would be a commitment to improvement in the post-season.

Amare and Diaw spending time at Center is clinging to disappointments of the past.

Playing Shaq when the opponent goes big means trying to keep up with that night's opponent . . . rather than coaching to get them to try to keep up with us.

You don't prevail by playing catch-up. A good Coach recognizes the skills (and limitations) of his players and sets lineups based on that.

 

[Ciani]

You don't prevail by playing catch-up. A good Coach recognizes the skills (and limitations) of his players and sets lineups based on that.

Sorry, but thats paradox. When Coach D recognized that the Suns roster is built for small ball - and thus made other teams, even the Spurs sometimes to play catch up, he was stupid.

The main problem with this new team that the interior defence is still terrible (Amare's inability to play D is really sad), as it was without Shaq, and our perimeter defence also became a liabilty without Marion. Not to mention the transition defence.

Rebounding is the only part of the game that improved.

 

[JS22]

This trade is not a failure. The coaching is a failure. I was never worried about Shaq fitting in himself as much as I was worried about D'antoni completely taking Shaq out of his game.

What the hell is O'neal doing in the high post 75% of the time? And now that Marion is gone, why isn't the offense run more through Amare? He can basically score at will and average 30-35 a night if he wanted too. But no, what do we see? Barbosa taking ******** layup after ******** layup, Bell bricking 3's over and over again, Amare not even touching the ball for 4,5,6 possessions at a time, and O'neal setting screens at the THREE POINT LINE.

There is absolutely no way I can defend D'antoni anymore. He is ruining this team with his "style." You put Nash, Amare, O'neal, Hill and to a lesser extent, Barbosa on any team with a real coach and you'd see a much better team.

So, for the next 2 years we'll get the pleasure of watching Shaq set screens at the 3pt line for $20 million a year, Nash aging rapidly but still playing 40 minutes a night, Amare never being used to his potential, Barbosa flinging the ball in the air praying that it goes in, and Bell hoisting up bricks.

Continuously feed Amare and O'neal in the post until the shooters at least start making some of their shots. Wear the opposing F / C's down and get them into foul trouble. That's all Phoenix really needs to do to be successful IMO. (Aside from actually trying to play defense - which I didn't even address in my post.)

 

[Bufalay]

If you want amare to be the teams dominant scorer as he has become then the team will suck. His average has gone up and his fg% has gone down. He cannot be the focal point of the offense because he cannot pass the ball. On plays when he should be setting someone else up he takes dumb contested shots and misses.

 

[elindholm]

If you want amare to be the teams dominant scorer as he has become then the team will suck. His average has gone up and his fg% has gone down.

He's shooting 55% and averaging 8.5 FTA in the six games with O'Neal. The FG% is very slightly down from his 58% season average and the FTs are about the same. There's nothing about making him the dominant scorer that would cause the team to suck.

 

[Covert Rain]

As has been said in other posts, as long as Amare and Diaw are still covering Center, and as long Shaq is playing Center at the high-post, the transition to Shaq has not been made.

With the current roster, Shaq and Skinner at Center and a rotation of Amare, Grant Hill and Diaw at the Forward positions would be a commitment to improvement in the post-season.

Amare and Diaw spending time at Center is clinging to disappointments of the past.

Playing Shaq when the opponent goes big means trying to keep up with that night's opponent . . . rather than coaching to get them to try to keep up with us.

I agree with this. That's why I keep posting WTF is D'Antoni doing? There is no reason that Skinner has not been getting playing time. You trying to tell me he can't back up Shaq? Skinner has played really good defense with playing time. Amare has only gotten better with Shaq in there. There is no denying it. His numbers are up across the board.

So let Amare continue to excel when Shaq isn't in there by putting Skinner beside him. Also, playing Diaw at Center for any stretch is inexcusable.
D'Antoni's management of the bench is probably just as bad now as it has been at any point here.

People who are saying this is Shaq are not watching him play. He is doing what we brough him in here for. Rebounding and defense. He has filled up the lane and grabbed rebounds we usually give up. He is no world stopper at his age but we brought him in to fill a role NOT LEAD THIS TEAM.

What we are missing is Shawn Marion's perimeter defese. What we are missing Shawns steals per game. What we are missing is consistant 3 point shooting. What we are missing is consistant play from our former MVP point guard.

Sorry but people who are saying this trade is the problem with the Suns are seeing only part of the problem.

 

[OldDirtMcGirt]

Don't forget about how much our rebounding has improved with Shaq in the lineup and everybody playing their natural positions. Like it or not, we basically have a "traditional" lineup, and we're force fitting D'Antoni's small ball philosophy into it. This is a coach who enjoys playing a 6'8 guy at the center position. Look at our frontcourt:

C: O'Neal 7'1", Skinner 6'10"
PF: Stoudemire 6'10"/Diaw 6'8"
SF: Hill 6'8"/Diaw 6'8"

Like it or not, we're a pretty big team after the trade. It's a matter of trying to put a square peg (D'Antoni's coaching philosphy) and stuffing it into a round whole (NBA championship).

 

[Covert Rain]

Don't forget about how much our rebounding has improved with Shaq in the lineup and everybody playing their natural positions. Like it or not, we basically have a "traditional" lineup, and we're force fitting D'Antoni's small ball philosophy into it. This is a coach who enjoys playing a 6'8 guy at the center position. Look at our frontcourt:

C: O'Neal 7'1", Skinner 6'10"
PF: Stoudemire 6'10"/Diaw 6'8"
SF: Hill 6'8"/Diaw 6'8"

Like it or not, we're a pretty big team after the trade. It's a matter of trying to put a square peg (D'Antoni's coaching philosphy) and stuffing it into a round whole (NBA championship).

I don't think D'Antoni knows how to coach another way which means we are in serious trouble.

Plus let's not downplay Marions contributions (like the Marion haters). We are missing his perimeter defense, filling the lane and getting easy steals. We have had ZERO of that since the trade.

So to me the reason we are struggling has more to do with coaching and the missing Marion elements. Let's assume for one second that getting GG and/or TL MIGHT shore some of that up from a player standpoinit.

Is anybody here confident that D'Antoni figure out his coaching issues? Look no further then Skinner riding the pine. WTH is this guy doing?

 

[OldDirtMcGirt]

I don't think D'Antoni knows how to coach another way which means we are in serious trouble.

Plus let's not downplay Marions contributions (like the Marion haters). We are missing his perimeter defense, filling the lane and getting easy steals. We have had ZERO of that since the trade.

So to me the reason we are struggling has more to do with coaching and the missing Marion elements. Let's assume for one second that getting GG and/or TL MIGHT shore some of that up from a player standpoinit.

Is anybody here confident that D'Antoni figure out his coaching issues? Look no further then Skinner riding the pine. WTH is this guy doing?

Plus, it's not like we have a guarantee that D'Antoni is even going to play Lue and/or Giricek. They might get burn the first couple of weeks, but as soon as we're in a tightly contested game, Nash is playing 40 minutes and we're only going seven deep.

You're absolutely on the mark with Skinner. He was playing great basketball, rebounding it well, playing solid defense, but D'Antoni simply can't handle playing two traditional centers in the same rotation.

I think that what we need to do (this offseason obviosly) is shop LB for a perimeter defensive player. If we could finagle a Ron Artest for Leandro Barbosa/change deal, then that would tremendously improve this team's prospects.

I still like DJ Strawberry and Alando Tucker, but I don't trust them to take this team over the hump. Artest is easily the best perimeter defensive player that this league has to offer, and he (along with a coach who actually knows how to coach defense) would go a long way towards making us championship caliber.

 

[Nash2Amare]

If you want amare to be the teams dominant scorer as he has become then the team will suck. His average has gone up and his fg% has gone down.

Since the acquisition of Shaq, Amare's FG% is at 56%..that's down a whopping 2%, big deal.
Of course he's going to lose some of his % because he's getting more shots then before, but he still needs to be used more often esp when Nash is out.


edit: I see someone else already got this^.

 

[DeAnna]

IIs anybody here confident that D'Antoni figure out his coaching issues? Look no further then Skinner riding the pine. WTH is this guy doing?

Since no one here is a professional BB coach, nor plays for this BB team, nor attends their practices, I'm going to give Mike and Dan-Dan Tony the benefit of the doubt. I'm sure they have their reasons. Or they could just be experimenting.

 

[Covert Rain]

Since no one here is a professional BB coach, nor plays for this BB team, nor attends their practices, I'm going to give Mike and Dan-Dan Tony the benefit of the doubt. I'm sure they have their reasons. Or they could just be experimenting.

That's a valid point. However, we don't have time to experiment. We are just a few games of sliding to the 7th seed. If GS goes on a tear then we are really in trouble.

Also, look at Mike's quotes about Skinner. He says that Shaq is taking up his minutes and the team needs guys out there to fuel the Running. So DeAnna you don't need to give him the benifit out of the doubt here.

Isn't it D'Antoni that says we can run with Shaq? Why would that change with Skinner in there. We have already proven we can run with Skinner. So, on one hand he says Shaq doesn't hurt our running but now playing Skinner does??

Come one. D'Antoni either has the shortest memory on record or is now officially schizophrenic. I get the entire figuring out thing. Problem is we don't have much time. and I would think after 6 games and practices we would see some shimmer of improvement. The Boston game is starting to look more and more like a bad game for Boston versus a good game for us.

 

[Treesquid PhD]

If you want amare to be the teams dominant scorer as he has become then the team will suck. His average has gone up and his fg% has gone down. He cannot be the focal point of the offense because he cannot pass the ball. On plays when he should be setting someone else up he takes dumb contested shots and misses.

Amare is an offensive player that can dominate and get to the FT line. It's those who want him to morph into Ben Wallace and not score are the ones who are misguided, it's not going to happen, get over it.

P.S. Ben Wallace sucks now that he can't roid up anymore.

 

[Treesquid PhD]

Since no one here is a professional BB coach, nor plays for this BB team, nor attends their practices, I'm going to give Mike and Dan-Dan Tony the benefit of the doubt. I'm sure they have their reasons. Or they could just be experimenting.

Dan Dan Tony is catching on!