I say Pass on Thomas!

[kerouac9]

Why do you think Grimm cannot help someone with their pass blocking? It should be pointed out that Grimm sent 6 different lineman to the pro-bowl. He gets his lineman to play. Last time i checked you have to be a complete lineman to make it to the pro-bowl.

Because Grimm's O-linemen have sucked at pass blocking as a unit since he arrived there six years ago, ranking in the bottom half of the NFL every year.

Go to footballousiders.com and check out their OL rankings.

 

[OldDirtMcGirt]

K9 is right here. Luckily Grimm's strength as a run blocker fit perfectly with Thomas, who's best suit is pass protection. Joe Thomas is the second best player in the draft, and fills the biggest need we have. It should be an absolute no-brainer that we draft him if he falls (which he won't).

 

[Zeno]

Why do you think Grimm cannot help someone with their pass blocking? It should be pointed out that Grimm sent 6 different lineman to the pro-bowl. He gets his lineman to play. Last time i checked you have to be a complete lineman to make it to the pro-bowl.

Because numbers don't lie and the Steelers pass blocking under Grimm had been below average compared to the rest of the NFL.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

It would, since you're an apologist for the front office. But an actually good OL coach takes players that are low-round picks or less highly regarded free agents and turns them into a dominant unit, as Alex Gibbs was able to do with the Broncos and Falcons and Matt Mauck did with the Chargers and--with less success--the Dolphins.

Maybe Grimm can do a great job with other teams' castoffs and second-day picks with the Arizona Cardinals, but no one should pretend like he's done it before.

For years the Bengals never used any high draft choices, except Munoz, on OL because they were so confident in their OL coach to get the lower drafted players to perform at a high level that they didn't worry about them early in the draft. I think they guy's name was Bob McNally,i'll look it up, and he may be coaching for Buffalo now.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

It's Jim McNally and he does coach for Buffalo still. That makes me even less impressed with Gandy because McNally is regarded as about the best in the business.

 

[kerouac9]

For years the Bengals never used any high draft choices, except Munoz, on OL because they were so confident in their OL coach to get the lower drafted players to perform at a high level that they didn't worry about them early in the draft. I think they guy's name was Bob McNally,i'll look it up, and he may be coaching for Buffalo now.

Yup, he's another one of those guys that manages to--as Len P. says--make chicken salad out of chicken feathers every season.

 

[vinnymac]

Because numbers don't lie and the Steelers pass blocking under Grimm had been below average compared to the rest of the NFL.

What numbers do you speak of. When you think about the steelers offensive line you think of hard nose lineman who pound you all game long. You can look at those numbers all you want. Russ Grimm is considered one of the better offensive line coaches in the league. How many times has Ben been sacked? Where are your numbers? I have never put too much stock in the numbers unless it is turnovers. Grimm is the same offensive line coach that took the steelers to the super bowl. In the playoffs of their super bowl season, they passed the ball more than they ran it. They still made the super bowl and won it. Sometimes people get to caught up in the "numbers", rather than trusting what they watched on game day.

 

[JeffGollin]

Some of you are unintentionally making my point. You point out players who remain mediocre despite good coaching. You point out offensive lines that overachieved because of good coaching. You talk about lines deficient in pass blocking that made it to the Super Bowl.

What this suggests is that - despite the coaching and despite the reputation of the player drafted - part of the draft process is one big crap shoot. But...

If you play the percentages long enough, the odds tend to tilt in your favor. I for one would rather go into next season feeling the Cardinal offensive line is more a sure thing and less a question mark. If Thomas were still available at #5, I'd play the percentages and draft him. (Note - I'm not as confident those percentages would also apply to L Brown (that's a call for Keim, Grimm & Co. to make). On face value, Brown would be easier to bypass in favor of someone like Willis, Branch, Okoye etc.

But that's not my original reason for posting. I wanted to throw another draft curve ball.

What would we have to come up with in order to complete a trade for Faneca. (Obviously, it would involve more than a swap of a #5 for a #15 and we're becoming overloaded with guards). What if we threw in Milford Brown plus hmmm. Marcel Shipp or Bryant Johnson? Discuss.

 

[Shogun]

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Let's all pass on Joe Thomas!​

 

[vinnymac]

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Let's all pass on Joe Thomas!​

You just got finished watching History International channel didn't you. Your point is taken. Some of these people on this board would want us to commit mass sucide if the cardinals didn't take Joe Thomas, Left Tackle from Wisconsin.

 

[Zeno]

What numbers do you speak of. When you think about the steelers offensive line you think of hard nose lineman who pound you all game long. You can look at those numbers all you want. Russ Grimm is considered one of the better offensive line coaches in the league. How many times has Ben been sacked?

How about this since the 2003 season...

Steelers allowed 160 sacks on much fewer pass attempts

Cardinals allowed 162 over that same span

Arizona was sacked just over 6% of the time they attempted to pass. Pittsburgh over 7.5% of the time.

Numbers don't lie. His lineman are very good at run blocking but below average at pass blocking. This is with first day picks along his OL so its not like he didn't have talent to work with.

Vinny...if you are going to argue at least come in to the argument with some facts.

 

[football karma]

Barring something nutty -- if Thomas is there at #5 -- he will in all likelihood by the BPA (probably by far) sitting there.

The Cards would be nuts to pass on him in that situation.

 

[earthsci]

Barring something nutty -- if Thomas is there at #5 -- he will in all likelihood by the BPA (probably by far) sitting there.

The Cards would be nuts to pass on him in that situation.

I agree. The talk out of the Cards headquarters that we are "alright" at OLine isn't to prepare us for not drafting Thomas IMO. We will if he is there. It is to prepare us for not drafting Brown or another OT in the first round.

 

[john h]

I know it is a great need for us but if Grimm is so great, why not get a T in the 2nd or 3rd with a mean streak and have him coached up. Even if we do get Thomas, it's not likely he will start right away and if he does he will struggle like any rookie, especially at that position.

This gives us an opportunity to get a playmaker that you cant find in later rounds.

Peterson
Adams
Branch
Landry

Kiper who does research these guy very closely still has Thomas as the second best player in the draft. Only the WR from Georgia Tech is ahead of him.

 

[john h]

Why do players have to have a mean streak to be any good? Anthony Munoz was the best OT I ever saw and he did not play "mean." Neither did Art Shell. Nor did many others whose names escape me now.

Not getting on your case redheat but wasn't Deuce Lutui pretty good as a rookie? The case could be made he should have started from game 1.

What makes you so sure Thomas would struggle as a starter?

I think I prefer smart to mean. There are a lot of dumb mean a-- guys out there who just cannot learn the nuances of the game.

 

[vinnymac]

How about this since the 2003 season...

Steelers allowed 160 sacks on much fewer pass attempts

Cardinals allowed 162 over that same span

Arizona was sacked just over 6% of the time they attempted to pass. Pittsburgh over 7.5% of the time.

Numbers don't lie. His lineman are very good at run blocking but below average at pass blocking. This is with first day picks along his OL so its not like he didn't have talent to work with.

Vinny...if you are going to argue at least come in to the argument with some facts.

Facts you say. Ok here some facts. The Steelers and their crappy pass protection have a better regular season record, have gone to the playsofffs and by the way won a superbowl since 2003 with Russ Grimm as their offensive line coach. The last time i checked win/loss is the only numbers that count in the NFL. Another fact is the Cardinals are suppose to be going to a run orientated offense. This is what i mean about people getting to caught up in the number game when the only numbers that count are the win/loss ratio.

 

[john h]

It would, since you're an apologist for the front office. But an actually good OL coach takes players that are low-round picks or less highly regarded free agents and turns them into a dominant unit, as Alex Gibbs was able to do with the Broncos and Falcons and Matt Mauck did with the Chargers and--with less success--the Dolphins.

Maybe Grimm can do a great job with other teams' castoffs and second-day picks with the Arizona Cardinals, but no one should pretend like he's done it before.

Many very good OL are no better than the players on either side of them. The OL is very much a unit and it is often said they need to work together for several years to really become good.

 

[Renz]

How about this since the 2003 season...

Steelers allowed 160 sacks on much fewer pass attempts

Cardinals allowed 162 over that same span

Arizona was sacked just over 6% of the time they attempted to pass. Pittsburgh over 7.5% of the time.

Numbers don't lie. His lineman are very good at run blocking but below average at pass blocking. This is with first day picks along his OL so its not like he didn't have talent to work with.

Vinny...if you are going to argue at least come in to the argument with some facts.

This is a perfect example of that famous saying, "There are lies, damn lies, and statistics".

Since 2003, Pittsburgh is 40-22 while the Cardinals have been 20-44.

Aren't on-field results what really matter?

 

[Zeno]

Facts you say. Ok here some facts. The Steelers and their crappy pass protection have a better regular season record, have gone to the playsofffs and by the way won a superbowl since 2003 with Russ Grimm as their offensive line coach. The last time i checked win/loss is the only numbers that count in the NFL. Another fact is the Cardinals are suppose to be going to a run orientated offense. This is what i mean about people getting to caught up in the number game when the only numbers that count are the win/loss ratio.

Here is a fact, this discussion is about Russ Grimm's effect on the OL, the FACT is in his history as an OL coach the pass blocking has been sub-par. Another fact, the Cardinals current collection of OL are not at the level of what he is used to coaching and yet another fact saying we want to be a run oriented team and actually being one are 2 completely different things. Just because a coach comes here doesn't change the fact that historically the Cardinals don't have success running the ball. How about another fact...3 of our 4 best offensive players are in the passing offense (Fitz, Leinart and Boldin).

W/L aren't a direct reflection of the OL coach, twist it anyway you can. I never said Grimm was a bad coach but for anyone to believe he will immediately make our team better in pass protection is wishful thinking. You don't think that maybe the Steelers got to the playoffs because of a superior running game, good defense and good special teams? Was Grimm responsible for all that too?

Your arguments are complete nonsense...in just about everything you argue.

 

[Zeno]

This is a perfect example of that famous saying, "There are lies, damn lies, and statistics".

Since 2003, Pittsburgh is 40-22 while the Cardinals have been 20-44.

Aren't on-field results what really matter?

Again, was Grimm responsible for the defense, special teams, drafts and playcalling? NO. He coached the OL the only measure of an OL coach is how his OL performs. Good Lord, people.

 

[john h]

Grimm coaches players "up" to their draft level. Sounds good enough. Then you look at our roster, and you see that we have a UDFA, two second round picks, a sixth-round pick, and a fifth-round pick. Um... somehow that doesn't seem as good as it used to.

Mostly, Pittsburgh's starters don't leave. The one that got away was Ross, who stunk as bad here (maybe worse) as he did in Pittsburgh. I'm not sure how you can really estimate how good an OL coach Grimm is, since he's been coaching first-day talent the entire time.

I guess you'd rather close your eyes and think positive thoughts while Leinart endures 40-plus sacks this season. So, that'll be fun.

There is only so much any coach can do with an individual player. No one can make a rose out of poison ivy. These players have mostly been coached and playing since little league and college. You cannot coach heart, speed, strength, brains and pure athletic ability. You can motivate and pass on some technique that they may not be familiar with. I think the most important thing they do is teach the players to play within the teams system. A coach IMHO does not create pro bowl players. The players playing around you are very important on just how good you are perceived to be. A coach should also be smart enough to design a game plan that will make you and your players look good and take advantage of you abilities.

 

[john h]

Because numbers don't lie and the Steelers pass blocking under Grimm had been below average compared to the rest of the NFL.

Actually statistics and numbers can be bent to prove a point. Just present the stats that help your case and ignore the ones that hurt your case. Errors by omission.

 

[Renz]

Again, was Grimm responsible for the defense, special teams, drafts and playcalling? NO. He coached the OL the only measure of an OL coach is how his OL performs. Good Lord, people.

So Pittsburgh went 15-1 one season and then won the Super Bowl the next in spite of the o-line? Is that the case you are trying to make?

 

[kerouac9]

So Pittsburgh went 15-1 one season and then won the Super Bowl the next in spite of the o-line? Is that the case you are trying to make?

In spite of the pass blocking. Which was horrible. 23rd in the NFL in the Super Bowl year, 28th in the NFL in the 15-1 year.

For all the moaning about how bad Arizona's offensive line was last season, Russ Grimm's highly touted unit was ranked one spot above the Cardinals' in run blocking, and 10 spots below Arizona's in pass blocking. Pittsbugh's blocking unit gave up a staggering 49 sacks last season while passing the ball far less than the Arizona Cardinals.

 

[Renz]

In spite of the pass blocking. Which was horrible. 23rd in the NFL in the Super Bowl year, 28th in the NFL in the 15-1 year.

For all the moaning about how bad Arizona's offensive line was last season, Russ Grimm's highly touted unit was ranked one spot above the Cardinals' in run blocking, and 10 spots below Arizona's in pass blocking. Pittsbugh's blocking unit gave up a staggering 49 sacks last season while passing the ball far less than the Arizona Cardinals.

Again, stats don't tell the whole story. How many of those sacks were Roethlisberger holding the ball too long?