I Think It's Time for Changes

[Covert Rain]

First I will apologize for the length of this post. I have been a staunch defender of this team. I have even held out hope this team could make some noise in the playoffs but after tonight’s game you can really see how far off this team is from the best in the NBA. Yes it's only one game but great teams don't lose like they did. Teams with legit stars don't disappear like Amare does.

This team could go on a 10 game win streak and I would still feel the same. Let's face it, this team is not beating quality opponents and when we play average teams we are barely beating them. The ones we do look good in are against beat up teams. This team can't beat the Lakers, Celtics, or Cav's in a 7 game series. This team is not even close to the worst in the Western Conference but we are not an elite team either.

Rebounding
Phoenix is in the bottom half in the NBA in rebounding. If it wasn't for Shaq we would probably be one of the bottom 10. Now factor in defensively, we give up the 2nd most Offensive rebounds in the entire NBA....which translates into 2nd chance points.

Assists/Turnovers
Team is 7th best in Assists but that is completely wiped out by being the 2nd worst in the NBA at turnovers. Yes we still have a Net positive ratio but only by about 5. You can't be a good defensive team being the 2nd worst in turnovers (and giving up easy buckets), no matter how many assists you get per game.

Steals Per Game
This has taken a nose dive since Shawn Marion left. You can talk all the crap you want about Shawn but when he was here we were one of the best in steals and Shawn was consistently in the top 10 in steals when he was here. This team ranks 2nd worst in the NBA in steals now.

Blocks
Again, bottom half of the NBA. Again...if not for Shaq, we would be one of the 10 worst in the NBA.

Opposing Team FG%
We are in the bottom half of the NBA. Again, if you look at individual Per there are some bright spots lately (SF & SG) but overall because of the PG spot, we are getting killed. If not for the above and Shaq's presence in the middle...again we would be in the bottom 10 (we are almost there).

Coaching
Porter - I don't know what to think about him. I don't think he is the answer but I do not blame this all on Porter. He was asked to help get this team better at the half court game. Mission accomplished. This team is light years ahead of what D'Antoni did in the half court. He was also asked to improve this team defensively. Mission NOT accomplished. His job is impossible. He is being asked to get guys who CAN'T play defense to play defense. Then again, I don't think Porter is the sharpest tool in the tool shed either. I still think getting rid of D'Antoni was the right move but hiring Porter as his replacement wasn't the answer.

Players

Nash
It's been great. I appreciate everything Nash brought this team and he made us relevant again. Having said that Nash's best basketball is clearly behind him. He still has a positive NET turnover to assist ratio but that has more to do with the fact that he will get you 15 to 20 assists every now and then. He has 56 turnovers in the last 15 games. Again, he has a positive Net but how do you play good defense with your PG giving up that many? It's time to see what we can get for Steve.

JRich
He has improved the SG position statistically on both sides of the ball. I think he is sort of the lost guy on the floor sometimes but it's amazing he is almost getting his average yet don't seem to run many plays to him. JRich is a keeper IMO from an age and future standpoint.

Hill
Hill has been playing good defense. As mentioned above, statistically between Hill and Barnes this is our best defended position on the floor. Hill is old and not the future. So, I am not sure what you do. I guess as long as he contributes keep him around but again, not the future.

Amare
Great offensive talent. Seriously inconsistent in almost every other aspect of his game. Amare is the master at showing up one night and disappearing the next. He wants to be the man and the star and he just doesn't have it. He will never be a great defensive player and will never be consistent enough to be a superstar. I say we trade Amare with a combo of possibly Steve and see what we can get.

Shaq
Shaq has been a bright spot on the team. He has been our most consistent player and the team MVP. Honestly, if Shaq started bitching right now....he would have every right to. He wants another ring and he isn't going to get it done with the players around him. Shaq also isn't our future. So, unless you could somehow pull off a trade for a better PG/PF combo to make a run this year, you might as well trade Shaq. Bottom line is this is not Shaq's fault and he has been great.

Barbosa
Unless you could include him in a blockbuster trade somehow, I say we hang on to him. He is young and has a fantastic contract. He also can give you 20 every night off the bench. He is not a starter but a very good bench player.

Barnes
I am mixed about Barnes. He is definitely partly responsible for the defensive play we are getting out of the SF position. I like his defense. The problem I have with Barnes is he is offensively stupid. Stupid shot selection a ton of stupid passes. I think the Suns are stupid for relying on him so much on the other end of the floor. Now factor in he has 36 turnovers the last 15 games. Barnes is young and a good defensive player IMO. I would like to hang onto him but only if you’re going to use him right.

Louis Amundson
He is the type of high energy player you want off your bench. We should hang on to him because he adds depth to your bench. He is not a very good player but you need someone off the bench like him for energy.

The Rest
IMO there is not one potential starter among the rest. Dudley, Lopez, Tucker or Dragic will never be quality starters IMO. Some of these guys might turn into good bench guys. However, there is not one young drafted player where you go "this guys is future star".

Let's start looking to make some changes so we can look to the future and start building something. At the very least to clear cap space so we can make a run at some free agents over the next few years.

I think it's time.

 

[mojorizen7]

Excellent post Steel, and yeah....i read it all.
I echo your thoughts.
Thats all i have to say about that right now.

 

[Andrew]

You have made some accurate points, BUT it is January. Yeah I know, not a good excuse, but it really is. If they make the playoffs, anything is possible.

 

[Covert Rain]

You have made some accurate points, BUT it is January. Yeah I know, not a good excuse, but it really is. If they make the playoffs, anything is possible.

Yeah but even the players have admitted the time for getting it done is right now. Several players have said there is no more getting used to each other etc. Honestly, Andrew....I freaking love what Shaq has brought to this team but not even Shaq's revitalized play can get this team a ring as is. We are at the halfway point and only a couple of games out of the playoff race.

At the very least, you should be hoping the Suns pull the trigger and get Shaq some better players around him. If the Suns do that...I might just jump back to the light side.

 

[dodie53]

so,
what you're saying is,
blow up the suns?


and,
i just like to add this:
nash and amare for marbury, lee, duhon, filler and picks

 

[Mirth]

Word. I agree 100%, time to blow it up.

 

[Andrew]

I understand what you are saying and how the players feel, but blowing up this team will only hurt us. Think about it, when would they have time to gel? Plus I really like the core of this team, I just say make those moves that don't seem to be too big but improve the aspects we must improve in. Maybe trade some bench players, etc. I fully expect for the Suns to go after some nice role players in the offseason, but not now...

Maybe I am optimistic, but I still think this team can get it together...

Yeah but even the players have admitted the time for getting it done is right now. Several players have said there is no more getting used to each other etc. Honestly, Andrew....I freaking love what Shaq has brought to this team but not even Shaq's revitalized play can get this team a ring as is. We are at the halfway point and only a couple of games out of the playoff race.

At the very least, you should be hoping the Suns pull the trigger and get Shaq some better players around him. If the Suns do that...I might just jump back to the light side.

 

[Covert Rain]

I understand what you are saying and how the players feel, but blowing up this team will only hurt us. Think about it, when would they have time to gel? Plus I really like the core of this team, I just say make those moves that don't seem to be too big but improve the aspects we must improve in. Maybe trade some bench players, etc. I fully expect for the Suns to go after some nice role players in the offseason, but not now...

Maybe I am optimistic, but I still think this team can get it together...

The Lakers seemed to Gel after the trade for Gasol. Half a season is plenty of time to gel IMO. That's why if the Suns have not solved their issues by now...they never will.

 

[Ninjafish]

The Lakers seemed to Gel after the trade for Gasol. Half a season is plenty of time to gel IMO. That's why if the Suns have not solved their issues by now...they never will.

Because the Lakers traded away worthless players for Gasol. If they traded away Kobe for Gasol, they wouldn't have gelled that quickly.

I'm all for trading Amare, but not Nash. Nash is still the guy that makes the team run. Barnes has mentioned how hard his game has become on the bench without Nash. Shaq says that Nash makes him look fabulous. Porter recently said that he's still the MVP of the team. And remember that the team still has an incredible amount of turnovers even when he doesn't play in a game. I don't think moving Nash is the answer for the turnovers.

I'd just like to see him used better. Countless times in every game I'll see Shaq or JRich or somebody take up a contested shot instead of passing it back to a completely wide open Nash. It almost never results in anything good. Nash is still our best shooter by far. It's just that none of the shots he's getting this season are easy.

 

[jagu]

Amare is the odd man out. Trade him for someone good. I don't have the confidence Kerr will get a good deal, he might trade Amare plus future picks for some scrub and say its a "great move."

 

[arwillan]

I understand what you are saying and how the players feel, but blowing up this team will only hurt us. Think about it, when would they have time to gel? Plus I really like the core of this team, I just say make those moves that don't seem to be too big but improve the aspects we must improve in. Maybe trade some bench players, etc. I fully expect for the Suns to go after some nice role players in the offseason, but not now...

Maybe I am optimistic, but I still think this team can get it together...

blowing the team up implies you aren't going to try and win it all this year. it means trading your star player(s) for younger players, picks, etc. It wouldn't matter about time to gel. None of the bench is really tradable other than barbosa.

 

[TucsonDevil]

SteelDog,

I like where your head is at... just a couple of comments.

Barnes - I think his passing is so bad because the Suns defer to him and he takes up the slack, without the skill. If others would step up to the plate and move the ball around, you wouldn't see those bad passes for Matt. I believe since he is part of the second unit (ie, the unit without Grant and Nash) there is no PG mentality on the court and Barnes is an alfa dog that doesn't want to sit around while LB pisses in his pants.

LB - Disagree. I would offer him as trade bait all day long. Mostly because he is the most attractive commodity available to Kerr. I don't want to trade him, but you have to give to receive - Nash isn't bringing anything of value in return.

Defense... The Suns defense is so poor because of one person. I'll give you a hint, it isn't #13 (though he isn't great)...

...yep, it's #1. Amare is not a smart defender. I am under the impression that Nash and others are supposed to funnel their players to the middle. The problem is, Amare allows himself to be taken out of the lane more often than I like to think about it, and is out of position. When penetration occurs (which it always does with an open lane), Amare tries to recover and causes fouls, or allows his man to gather offensive boards or quick layups of dishes. This is also why Amare is a poor rebounder for his position and size... he is never in position to use his size effectively.

That's how I see it, anyway...

 

[jagu]

SteelDog,

...yep, it's #1. Amare is not a smart defender. I am under the impression that Nash and others are supposed to funnel their players to the middle. The problem is, Amare allows himself to be taken out of the lane more often than I like to think about it, and is out of position. When penetration occurs (which it always does with an open lane), Amare tries to recover and causes fouls, or allows his man to gather offensive boards or quick layups of dishes. This is also why Amare is a poor rebounder for his position and size... he is never in position to use his size effectively.

That's how I see it, anyway...

Agreed 100 percent. He is always out of position, He reaches in and commits cheapo fouls or tries to use his ridiculous hops to recover his mistakes and draws another foul. Porter's "defensive" mindset really worked didn't it? Nope. Amare is a serious hole in the defense of the Phoenix Suns. Now offensively too.

 

[cly2tw]

I don't know how Amare trains himself. But he seems to have become stiffer with his shoulders and arms than before. Maybe it comes from too much weight lifting while walking with straight knees. That causes his inability to adjust to sudden bounces of the ball off rebounds or other players. He used to be actually better at that. In this particular game vs Boston, he seemed to have no feel in his arms. Very strange.

 

[YouJustGotSUNSD]

I'm not pushing the destruct button until 10 games after the All Star break.

I think the only thing that is a true issue with this team is the turnover rate. You eliminate their turnovers, and they are at the top of the league.

No one expected the turnover issue to carry on this long into the season, but it's inevitable that players this smart will find a way to eliminate them.

If they can't show a drastic improvement on turnovers and a winning streak in the first 10 games after ASB, then Summertime is kaboom time, starting with Amare for draft picks.

 

[dodie53]

is Amare just doing his piss poor play on purpose so the suns FO would trade him?

 

[Covert Rain]

I'm all for trading Amare, but not Nash. Nash is still the guy that makes the team run. Barnes has mentioned how hard his game has become on the bench without Nash. Shaq says that Nash makes him look fabulous. Porter recently said that he's still the MVP of the team. And remember that the team still has an incredible amount of turnovers even when he doesn't play in a game. I don't think moving Nash is the answer for the turnovers.

Actually Porter said Shaq is the MVP of this team this year. Nash's turnovers are a huge problem. Turnovers turn into easy buckets. It's impossible for a team to play good defense if your giving up more easy buckets then 99% of the teams in the NBA.

Here is the breakdown of our normal rotation (last 15):

Nash - 52 (3.5 Per)
JRich - 24 (1.6 Per)
Hill - 19 (1.3 Per)
Amare - 40 (2.7 Per)
Shaq - 31 (2.1 Per)
Barnes - 34 (2.3 Per)
Barbosa - 14 (.9 Per)
Amundson 14 (.9 Per)

The top 3 culprits are Nash, Amare and Barnes. In your overall 8 man rotation you can bank on 15.3 Per (assuming nobody has a bad game). It is impossible to play good defense turning the ball over that much. This team gives up to many easy buckets. The Celtics game is just one example to the extreme.

40% of our starters turnovers are coming from Nash and Amare. JRich and Hill have been very good holding onto the ball.

55% of our bench turnovers are coming from Barnes. I think there was a little more to moving Hill back into the starting rotation then getting Hill started. Porter was probably trying to get the turnovers under control in the starting 5. Problem is Barnes turnover rate has not improved. Barnes was yanked twice in the past few games while playing with Nash on the floor after a couple of boneheaded passes and poor shot selections. Barnes is not a smart player on the court.

Between the 3 of them, if they eliminated their turnovers we would reduce our turnover rate by 55%. Now factor in the neither Nash can't cover anybody and PG is our worst defended position on the court according to 82games.com. It's not even close.

How can this team improve defensively with your PG giving up the most Points by position and having the most turnovers per game? Please explain to me how that improves with Nash as our PG?

Now you have your other star player in Amare disappearing every other game? Porter has an impossible job.

 

[Mainstreet]

Coaching
Porter - I don't know what to think about him. I don't think he is the answer but I do not blame this all on Porter. He was asked to help get this team better at the half court game. Mission accomplished. This team is light years ahead of what D'Antoni did in the half court. He was also asked to improve this team defensively. Mission NOT accomplished. His job is impossible. He is being asked to get guys who CAN'T play defense to play defense. Then again, I don't think Porter is the sharpest tool in the tool shed either. I still think getting rid of D'Antoni was the right move but hiring Porter as his replacement wasn't the answer.

I never could understand this line of thinking about DA. It goes like this, DA we will give you four full seasons to win a Championship. Forget about the two WCFs appearances and the 57 game win a season. We want a Championship now. Since you did not win a Championship during this brief period we will find a coach on the cheap who will win it for us. Of course any coach that follows you must be better because your coaching style cannot win the big one.

Anyone but me think DA was not given enough time to get the job done?

I think DA played to the strength of the players he had.

 

[Covert Rain]

I never could understand this line of thinking about DA. It goes like this, DA we will give you four full seasons to win a Championship. Forget about the two WCFs appearances and the 57 game win a season. We want a Championship now. Since you did not win a Championship during this brief period we will find a coach on the cheap who will win it for us. Of course any coach that follows you must be better because your coaching style cannot win the big one.

Anyone but me think DA was not given enough time to get the job done?

I think DA played to the strength of the players he had.

I think he not only had enough time but the Suns were decreasing in performance the last 2 years under DA. In addition, DA wasn't willing to make the changes needed to turn things around (playing half court or emphasizing defense). Also, look at what he has done in NY. He has moved their best defensive players in trades for the sake of offense. There can be no doubt D'Antoni doesn't care about defense.

Defense wins championships. History proves that. That's why I have always been OK with letting D'Antoni go. I didn't endorse the Porter signing whatsoever and think he is probably the wrong choice. I wanted a certain Celtics defensive coach.

 

[TucsonDevil]

I never could understand this line of thinking about DA. It goes like this, DA we will give you four full seasons to win a Championship. Forget about the two WCFs appearances and the 57 game win a season. We want a Championship now. Since you did not win a Championship during this brief period we will find a coach on the cheap who will win it for us. Of course any coach that follows you must be better because your coaching style cannot win the big one.

Anyone but me think DA was not given enough time to get the job done?

I think DA played to the strength of the players he had.

DA had plenty of time. He also had plenty of talent. Here was the problem... Nash was beginning to decline and it was clear that only Nash could run that offense at a high level (ie, the window was slamming shut). DA then refused to make defense a priority, and the system had failed to produce each post-season (ie, get over the Spurs/Mavs that stressed defense). Everyone has injuries, everyone has bad luck.

Would it have helped DA to have a good backup PG, another bigman that could run, better players? Sure, but this is what he did have... best PG in the league (2xMVP), Defensive 1st team player, Two 1st Team All-NBA players, MIP, 6th Man, and Marion (the do everything guy). He had more than anyone else in the league had, IMO.

I like DA, but he can't win a championship with that style of play. You have to make defense a priority at some point.

 

[Griffin]

Everyone has injuries, everyone has bad luck.

And do the teams that have key injuries in the playoffs manage to overcome those injuries to win championships those seasons? Give recent examples please.

You have to make defense a priority at some point.

We have made defense a priority this season. DA is no longer here to impede that progress. Now where is the improvement?

 

[Covert Rain]

And do the teams that have key injuries in the playoffs manage to overcome those injuries to win championships those seasons? Give recent examples please.

We have made defense a priority this season. DA is no longer here to impede that progress. Now where is the improvement?

Yeah but the age and ability of some of the players is impeding them. You can't turn crap defensive players into defensive stoppers.

You going to sit here and pretend that a great coach couldn't not have maximized players like Raja, Marion or Joe's defensive abilities instead of turning them into running and gunning 3 point shooters????

Come on.

 

[joshstmarie]

I dont get this team. At all. on paper i really feel like we have THE best team in the nba. why they doesnt translate on the court makes no sense to me. I agree with YJGS, Give them untill after the all star break...

 

[Griffin]

Yeah but the age and ability of some of the players is impeding them. You can't turn crap defensive players into defensive stoppers.

Yeah, but our main "crap defensive players" have always been crap defensive players. Age has nothing to do with Amare or Nash's defensive prowess.

You going to sit here and pretend that a great coach couldn't not have maximized players like Raja, Marion or Joe's defensive abilities instead of turning them into running and gunning 3 point shooters????

But our problem was never Raja's (at least not until recently), or Marion's, or JJ's defense so much as team defense. And in my opinion, you can't have a solid defensive team built around Amare and Nash, especially Amare. Now you can argue that a defensive coach might turn Amare into a better defensive player, but that seems more and more unlikely the more I watch Amare play this year.

 

[Mainstreet]

I dont get this team. At all. on paper i really feel like we have THE best team in the nba. why they doesnt translate on the court makes no sense to me. I agree with YJGS, Give them untill after the all star break...

Especially now that the Suns are receiving better coaching.