I Think It's Time for Changes

[mojorizen7]

Especially now that the Suns are receiving better coaching.

Just curious Mainstreet,how many more years in your opinion should DA have been given(given that he'd had the full support from the front office)?

 

[Covert Rain]

Yeah, but our main "crap defensive players" have always been crap defensive players. Age has nothing to do with Amare or Nash's defensive prowess.

But our problem was never Raja's (at least not until recently), or Marion's, or JJ's defense so much as team defense. And in my opinion, you can't have a solid defensive team built around Amare and Nash, especially Amare. Now you can argue that a defensive coach might turn Amare into a better defensive player, but that seems more and more unlikely the more I watch Amare play this year.

Except even with the good defensive players that we did have they were never put in positions to maximize their abilities. D'Anotoni liked unconventional defensive assignments and often our defenders were out of position because of the run and gun mentality.

A great coach would have put those guys in better positions to play defense and maximized it. Since D'Antoni didn't emphasize defense, it was an after thought.

 

[Mainstreet]

Just curious Mainstreet,how many more years in your opinion should DA have been given(given that he'd had the full support from the front office)?

I've said many times over, preferably until 2010 when Shaq's and Nash's contracts expire. However, if the Suns had tanked with DA early this season, I would not have hesitated to make a change. It would have been so interesting if Kerr had given DA a chance to do something with this Suns team. Then there would have been none of this second guessing if DA lost the team.

 

[mojorizen7]

I've said many times over, preferably until 2010 when Shaq's and Nash's contracts expire. However, if the Suns had tanked with DA early this season, I would not have hesitated to make a change. It would have been so interesting if Kerr had given DA a chance to do something with this Suns team. Then there would have been none of this second guessing if DA lost the team.

Fair enough.
I will only add that to a certain extent i agree.

I'm still of the opinion that if DA goes, his players should have went too.
The mistake here was Kerr trying to take another title shot with DA's pedigree and Porters inexperience.

 

[Mainstreet]

Fair enough.
I will only add that to a certain extend i agree.

I'm still of the opinion that if DA goes, his players should have went too.
The mistake here was Kerr trying to take another title shot with DA's pedigree and Porters inexperience.

Yep. I would have supported DA's removal myself under the circumstance I described.

If the players had been moved as well as DA, then one would be looking at rebuilding the whole Suns team (which I fear is going to happen soon anyway). However, most of the fans would have been totally against this because they were lured fully into DA is the fault mode.

To rebuild the Suns properly the Suns need to start with a new owner, new GM and a new coach. If Sarver is staying, he should change the latter two and by all means spend some money on scouting.

 

[Ninjafish]

Actually Porter said Shaq is the MVP of this team this year.

Well, he's actually said both. http://www.azcentral.com/sports/suns/articles/2009/01/18/20090118sunsraptorsgamer.html

"He's still been our MVP this year," coach Terry Porter said of Nash.

Nash's turnovers are a huge problem. Turnovers turn into easy buckets. It's impossible for a team to play good defense if your giving up more easy buckets then 99% of the teams in the NBA.

Here is the breakdown of our normal rotation (last 15):

Nash - 52 (3.5 Per)

OK. And how many assists has he averaged in his last 15? According to his ESPN stats, for the month of January (last 9 games), he's averaging 3.2 TOs and 11 assists. In TOs, that's below his average for every year he's been with the Suns, and in assists it's nearly up there with his best years.

If TOs weren't a major problem for him in past years, then I can't see why they would be now that they're lower.

 

[elindholm]

It's impossible for a team to play good defense if your giving up more easy buckets then 99% of the teams in the NBA.

What's 99% of 30?

 

[mojorizen7]

What's 99% of 30?

You must be registered for see images

LOL

 

[TucsonDevil]

And do the teams that have key injuries in the playoffs manage to overcome those injuries to win championships those seasons? Give recent examples please.

2007 San Antonio Spurs. Manu missed 7 games with injuries and wasn't quite right until the stretch run

2006 Miami Heat - Shaq and Jason Williams played less than 60 games due to injuries

2005 SA Spurs - TD missed nearly 20 games due to injuries

2003 SA Spurs - David Robinson missed nearly 20 games during the season

2002 Lakers - Shaq missed 15 games due to various 'nagging' injuries... truth be told, this is where Shaq used to institute cruise control a lot.

2001 and 2000 Lakers, Kobe missed 14 and 16 games respectively.

Point is, every team has to learn to play hurt during stretches. That is how role players develop confidence and ability. Remember how DA would only use a certain group and refuse to trust anyone past the 7th man?

We have made defense a priority this season. DA is no longer here to impede that progress. Now where is the improvement?

You may have made defense a priority this season... but Amare hasn't.

 

[Ninjafish]

2007 San Antonio Spurs. Manu missed 7 games with injuries and wasn't quite right until the stretch run

2006 Miami Heat - Shaq and Jason Williams played less than 60 games due to injuries

2005 SA Spurs - TD missed nearly 20 games due to injuries

2003 SA Spurs - David Robinson missed nearly 20 games during the season

2002 Lakers - Shaq missed 15 games due to various 'nagging' injuries... truth be told, this is where Shaq used to institute cruise control a lot.

2001 and 2000 Lakers, Kobe missed 14 and 16 games respectively.

Point is, every team has to learn to play hurt during stretches. That is how role players develop confidence and ability. Remember how DA would only use a certain group and refuse to trust anyone past the 7th man?

He said key injuries in the playoffs. If Kobe missed 16 games in the playoffs and the Lakers still won the title, that would be remarkable.

 

[Covert Rain]

OK. And how many assists has he averaged in his last 15? According to his ESPN stats, for the month of January (last 9 games), he's averaging 3.2 TOs and 11 assists. In TOs, that's below his average for every year he's been with the Suns, and in assists it's nearly up there with his best years.

If TOs weren't a major problem for him in past years, then I can't see why they would be now that they're lower.

As stated before, turnover lead to easy buckets for the other team. Defense has been a problem with this team for more then just this year. We used to have players on this team that used to do an OK job of taking care of the ball. Look at the turnover break down I did. We have other guys turning over the ball now which just compounds the problem.

What's 99% of 30?

You know what I meant. lol. Sorry....I meant we give up more easy buckets then every team sans...1.

 

[TucsonDevil]

He said key injuries in the playoffs. If Kobe missed 16 games in the playoffs and the Lakers still won the title, that would be remarkable.

Take away the 2005-2006 season for a second. What year did the Suns have key injuries in the playoffs? And before you type it, the Joe Johnson injury wasn't that key for two reasons. #1, the Suns still beat the Mavs, #2, he came back and we were still crushed by the Spurs because they shut down Marion, Q and Nash - nearly entirely in the 4th quarters. The Spurs beat the Suns 4-1, with the Suns having homecourt. Four to One. The only win coming from a last second block on a TD dunk by Amare. The Suns barely won. The Spurs DOMINATED the series. Joe Johnson wasn't going to make that much of a difference... it wasn't even close. Remember how the Suns knew they had to get rid of Q and bring in KT? Not to mention Raja (someone to slow down Manu). Those changes were made BEFORE they were losing JJ - they already knew they needed more to beat the Spurs than just a healthy JJ.

2006 playoffs is the one time where I might accept the fact that we could have won it with a healthy Raja and KT. But the reason for that would have been luck - Dallas beat the Spurs for us. We still wouldn't have been able to beat the Spurs.

2007 Playoffs. We were heathly, and had homecourt against the Spurs. What happened in Game 1? DA sat KT most of the game, played his 'style' and the Spurs did what they always do... let the Suns believe they can win, the shut everyone down in the 4th quarter and win by a few points. Of course, DA realized what an idiot he had been with that game plan (it was 2005 all over again) and he played KT the next game - Suns won comfortably, but Homecourt was gone. Game 3, Spurs win, Game 4 - the best game ever for Suns fans in a Spurs series... but who screws it up in the end. AMARE! He and Doris think they can stand up and come on to the court for a fight. Game 5, more of the same from Spurs - let the Suns get up, then choke them in 4th quarter and win.

Suns fans (including myself) are a bit delusional. The Spurs never were truly challenged by the Suns. They never lost a series. Coaching was Vastly superior. I hate the Spurs as much as the next guy, but I don't lie to myself and say the Suns were always better but unlucky. The Suns might have had better individual players, but the Spurs are a far superior team because of their coaching.

OK, clearly I am not going to convince a few of you, but consider one thing. This isn't the first time in Suns history that they 'were close' but couldn't get over the top. The key is that the organization has to recognize what is it that is not allowing them to 'get over the top' and make that change. In the 80s it was a lack of a big man. In the 90s it was a "unmotivated, partied too much" SuperStar, and now in the 2000s, it seems to be a cohesive unit willing to put aside individual glory for the betterment of the team... speaking directly to Amare, and no one else. IF Amare could do that AND our second unit play with less mistakes, we might be able to put on an impressive run.

Seriously, ask yourself one question. What does Boston have (personel wise) that the Suns don't have?

 

[TucsonDevil]

Sorry for the above ... way too long.

:endrant:

 

[Duke of Oysters]

Seriously, ask yourself one question. What does Boston have (personel wise) that the Suns don't have?

Agreed. Talent wise the Suns can compete with anyone. Think they just need some kind of rallying-cry or spark. Perhaps ridding themselves of Porter or another trade would do it. Hoping something less drastic - like a massacre in Boston? - could do it.

And I disagree. That JJ injury in the playoffs really hurt the Suns against the Spurs in 2005. We'll never really know though, will we? Could the Suns have won that series with a healthy JJ?

 

[Ninjafish]

Take away the 2005-2006 season for a second. What year did the Suns have key injuries in the playoffs? And before you type it, the Joe Johnson injury wasn't that key for two reasons. #1, the Suns still beat the Mavs, #2, he came back and we were still crushed by the Spurs because they shut down Marion, Q and Nash - nearly entirely in the 4th quarters. The Spurs beat the Suns 4-1, with the Suns having homecourt. Four to One. The only win coming from a last second block on a TD dunk by Amare. The Suns barely won. The Spurs DOMINATED the series. Joe Johnson wasn't going to make that much of a difference... it wasn't even close. Remember how the Suns knew they had to get rid of Q and bring in KT? Not to mention Raja (someone to slow down Manu). Those changes were made BEFORE they were losing JJ - they already knew they needed more to beat the Spurs than just a healthy JJ.

I don't think they would have won in 05 either way but still not having JJ for the first two home games was a big big factor.

2006 playoffs is the one time where I might accept the fact that we could have won it with a healthy Raja and KT. But the reason for that would have been luck

I'll take that.

Suns fans (including myself) are a bit delusional. The Spurs never were truly challenged by the Suns.

But the series was tied before the suspensions crap happened. And we had home court and we had momentum. How can you say we wouldn't have won? How could anyone?

 

[Mainstreet]

Seriously, ask yourself one question. What does Boston have (personel wise) that the Suns don't have?

Kevin Garnett

 

[nashman]

^Exactly a professional DRIVEN player unlike Amare who whines about calls and loafs on defense!!!!!!!

 

[Mirth]

Take away the 2005-2006 season for a second. What year did the Suns have key injuries in the playoffs? And before you type it, the Joe Johnson injury wasn't that key for two reasons. #1, the Suns still beat the Mavs, #2, he came back and we were still crushed by the Spurs because they shut down Marion, Q and Nash - nearly entirely in the 4th quarters. The Spurs beat the Suns 4-1, with the Suns having homecourt. Four to One. The only win coming from a last second block on a TD dunk by Amare. The Suns barely won. The Spurs DOMINATED the series. Joe Johnson wasn't going to make that much of a difference... it wasn't even close. Remember how the Suns knew they had to get rid of Q and bring in KT? Not to mention Raja (someone to slow down Manu). Those changes were made BEFORE they were losing JJ - they already knew they needed more to beat the Spurs than just a healthy JJ.

2006 playoffs is the one time where I might accept the fact that we could have won it with a healthy Raja and KT. But the reason for that would have been luck - Dallas beat the Spurs for us. We still wouldn't have been able to beat the Spurs.

2007 Playoffs. We were heathly, and had homecourt against the Spurs. What happened in Game 1? DA sat KT most of the game, played his 'style' and the Spurs did what they always do... let the Suns believe they can win, the shut everyone down in the 4th quarter and win by a few points. Of course, DA realized what an idiot he had been with that game plan (it was 2005 all over again) and he played KT the next game - Suns won comfortably, but Homecourt was gone. Game 3, Spurs win, Game 4 - the best game ever for Suns fans in a Spurs series... but who screws it up in the end. AMARE! He and Doris think they can stand up and come on to the court for a fight. Game 5, more of the same from Spurs - let the Suns get up, then choke them in 4th quarter and win.

Suns fans (including myself) are a bit delusional. The Spurs never were truly challenged by the Suns. They never lost a series. Coaching was Vastly superior. I hate the Spurs as much as the next guy, but I don't lie to myself and say the Suns were always better but unlucky. The Suns might have had better individual players, but the Spurs are a far superior team because of their coaching.

OK, clearly I am not going to convince a few of you, but consider one thing. This isn't the first time in Suns history that they 'were close' but couldn't get over the top. The key is that the organization has to recognize what is it that is not allowing them to 'get over the top' and make that change. In the 80s it was a lack of a big man. In the 90s it was a "unmotivated, partied too much" SuperStar, and now in the 2000s, it seems to be a cohesive unit willing to put aside individual glory for the betterment of the team... speaking directly to Amare, and no one else. IF Amare could do that AND our second unit play with less mistakes, we might be able to put on an impressive run.

Seriously, ask yourself one question. What does Boston have (personel wise) that the Suns don't have?

Agree 100%

 

[Griffin]

Take away the 2005-2006 season for a second. What year did the Suns have key injuries in the playoffs?

Here's the problem with this approach: any fan of any other good team can claim the same. They can go back, analyze the series, and conclude that despite their team missing this or that player they still should have overcome to win the title. And that may be a valid point, and yet historically, teams that suffer those types of injuries in the playoffs do not win championships. That is a fact. I asked you for examples to the contrary, and if you looked into it you noticed that there really aren't any. This is not a coincidence.

So you can argue that the Suns injuries were not significant enough to impede their pursuit of a title, but then you also have to argue why you believe that all the other really good teams, coached by those really good coaches, have failed to win a title when faced with similar adversity.

 

[elindholm]

It really doesn't matter whether the team was good enough to win a title during the D'Antoni era. By the end of it, the key players were in decline (Nash, Bell), injury-prone (Hill), disaffected (Stoudemire, Diaw, Marion), or had weaknesses the rest of the league had figured out how to exploit (Barbosa and almost everyone else). The Suns had gotten a shade worse and the rest of the league had gotten better. So whether they had been contenders before or not, they weren't anymore.

D'Antoni could have been the coach for the new era, but he showed that he was too stubborn to deviate from his "system," even though he no longer had the personnel to make it work at the highest level. A coach that won't adapt to his players' evolving strengths and weaknesses is useless to an organization trying to redefine itself. So getting rid of him was the only option, regardless of how well his teams did, or could have done, while he was coaching them.

 

[joshstmarie]

How you can say JJ would have been a non factor in 2005 is beyond me. our bench was short enough as it was..take away JJ...yea, you get the point.

 

[TucsonDevil]

Here's the problem with this approach: any fan of any other good team can claim the same. They can go back, analyze the series, and conclude that despite their team missing this or that player they still should have overcome to win the title. And that may be a valid point, and yet historically, teams that suffer those types of injuries in the playoffs do not win championships. That is a fact. I asked you for examples to the contrary, and if you looked into it you noticed that there really aren't any. This is not a coincidence.

So you can argue that the Suns injuries were not significant enough to impede their pursuit of a title, but then you also have to argue why you believe that all the other really good teams, coached by those really good coaches, have failed to win a title when faced with similar adversity.

Fully healthy, the system could not beat the Spurs. Period. I am disputing the claim that injuries stopped us...

D'Antoni could have been the coach for the new era, but he showed that he was too stubborn to deviate from his "system," even though he no longer had the personnel to make it work at the highest level. A coach that won't adapt to his players' evolving strengths and weaknesses is useless to an organization trying to redefine itself. So getting rid of him was the only option, regardless of how well his teams did, or could have done, while he was coaching them.

This is an obvious point that seems to throw many for a loop.

How you can say JJ would have been a non factor in 2005 is beyond me. our bench was short enough as it was..take away JJ...yea, you get the point.

My point was, the Spurs decided to sit on everyone but Amare... and Amare could not get it done. They would have done the same with JJ in the entire series. D'Antoni's system doesn't work without Nash... the Spurs simply take him out of the equation every 4th quarter.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

No one expected the turnover issue to carry on this long into the season, but it's inevitable that players this smart will find a way to eliminate them.

QUOTE]

no, it's not inevitable. they prove night-in and night-out that they just can't stop hemorraging turnovers. smart or not, they give the ball away like it's going outta style. and nash is the #1 culprit. it's like he's seeing the passes he used to make, but his reflexes have slowed just enough that he can't squeeze 'em through any more. a lost millisecond for him due to natural aging may mean the difference between 11 assists/game and 4 turnovers/game.

 

[Cheesebeef]

What does Boston have (personel wise) that the Suns don't have?

their superstars are in their early 30's, as opposed to mid-late 30's. There's a big difference between being 31-32 and 35-36 in the NBA

If Nash and Shaq were 31 and 32, this team wouldn't just be unstoppable, they'd probably be the greatest team of all time. Age has to be taken into consideration.

 

[Covert Rain]

After watching the Knick game I think the Celtics may have set something in motion. They always say you have a turning point game in the season. That game might have been against the Celtics in a bad way.

This team looks like it's mentally spent. They don't look like they wanted it at all against the Knicks. I am telling you. It's time. It's time to make another blockbuster trade or start blowing it up.

Watch very carefully how this team comes out against Charlotte on Friday. If they lay another egg....wow.....just wow.