If Kolb fails someone better be held accountable this offseason

[Garthshort]

When we (I was against the trade, but got overruled) made the trade for Kolb, i believe TJ McCreight headed up the Pro Personnel department. He is no longer with the team.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

Are you being sarcastic? He got caught drunk on the town once... it sure didnt stop the Cardinals from drafting Floyd.

If a dude is a repeat bonehead its a big concern, but a college kid with one public intoxication offense on his record and nothing else? I wouldnt sweat it.

And he was all the way down to the 3rd round! It was a very little risk and potentially gargantuan reward to take him right there. Furthermore our QB situation was (and still is) arguably the worst in the league at the time, to pass on a potential blue chip prospect that falls into your lap in the 3rd round is completely inexcusable.

Maybe you need refreshed.

Ryan Mallet in college:

You must be registered for see images

also, what has Ryan Mallet done. You could just as easily pikced any QB who hasn't played a game and said what a mistake it was to pass on him. Pure lunacy. And I like Mallet. Still lamenting not drafting him is ridiculous. If you have Tom Brady at QB, you can take a chance on talented coke heads.

 

[Stout]

Only issue is -- Whisenhunt has proven time and time again that he can't develop QB's.

Then we might as well fire him, because we won't win with him, eh?

 

[Duckjake]

Then we might as well fire him, because we won't win with him, eh?

But we can win with him. Don't buy into the anti-Skelton hysteria where people are thinking up every excuse they can to prove he can't win. Why I have no idea. I've never seen fans diss a guy who wins like they have Skelton. As for the media. Somers and Urban are homer hacks and write whatever ingratiates them with the Cards front office and players. Worst local NFL reporting in the US. There's a reason all our breaking news comes from sources like ESPN.

Jim Hart threw the ball high all the time. And he went 31-11 from '74-'76.

Time to stop whining and get on the Skelton bandwagon.

 

[kerouac9]

But we can win with him. Don't buy into the anti-Skelton hysteria where people are thinking up every excuse they can to prove he can't win. Why I have no idea. I've never seen fans diss a guy who wins like they have Skelton. As for the media. Somers and Urban are homer hacks and write whatever ingratiates them with the Cards front office and players. Worst local NFL reporting in the US. There's a reason all our breaking news comes from sources like ESPN.

Jim Hart threw the ball high all the time. And he went 31-11 from '74-'76.

Time to stop whining and get on the Skelton bandwagon.

I don't understand the impulse not to compare players across the league right now. Whether or not Terry Bradshaw could win Super Bowls in the 70s is irrelevant. Whether Troy Aikman could win Super Bowls in the 90s is irrelevant. Put Troy Aikman in his prime in today's league and I think he's Matt Ryan. Matt Ryan is a perfectly fine player, but he's not a Hall of Famer.

I think you can make an argument that an improved John Skelton is capable of winning the NFC West a majority of the time over the next five years, say. I think that he's a quarterback capable of leading a team to 9- and 10-win seasons.

But if John Skelton's potential is maxed out, I still think that's what he's capable of. I think he's able to be Matt Cassel. Is Matt Cassel going to win someone a Super Bowl? I think he can be a starter for a Super Bowl-winning team, but I'm not sure he's going to win someone a Super Bowl the way that Tom Brady or Drew Brees could.

I'm on the John Skelton 2012 bandwagon and have been. But unless you're going to invest resources on the offensive line and shift the offensive focus to the running game, I don't think that you are going to have sustained success with John Skelton.

In order to have sustained success with John Skelton, you have to change the coaching staff around him--the philosophical orientation of the offense. If you think the philosophical orientation of the offense has more potential than John Skelton, then you suffer through a 6-10 2012 and trade up to get Tyler Wilson in the 2013 NFL draft.

 

[Stout]

But we can win with him. Don't buy into the anti-Skelton hysteria where people are thinking up every excuse they can to prove he can't win. Why I have no idea. I've never seen fans diss a guy who wins like they have Skelton. As for the media. Somers and Urban are homer hacks and write whatever ingratiates them with the Cards front office and players. Worst local NFL reporting in the US. There's a reason all our breaking news comes from sources like ESPN.

Jim Hart threw the ball high all the time. And he went 31-11 from '74-'76.

Time to stop whining and get on the Skelton bandwagon.

You know I'm already on that bandwagon, Duck. Heck, I'm the one who helped build it in the first place. I was pimping him as a developmental draft pick before we even drafted him. My above statement was nothing more than a statement in response to the idea that KW can't develop QBs. Well, if we think that 100 percent, why bother trying to bring in QBs or develop what we have? I was trying to reflect how silly defeatism is. I guess I failed

 

[Duckjake]

I don't understand the impulse not to compare players across the league right now. Whether or not Terry Bradshaw could win Super Bowls in the 70s is irrelevant. Whether Troy Aikman could win Super Bowls in the 90s is irrelevant. Put Troy Aikman in his prime in today's league and I think he's Matt Ryan. Matt Ryan is a perfectly fine player, but he's not a Hall of Famer.

I think you can make an argument that an improved John Skelton is capable of winning the NFC West a majority of the time over the next five years, say. I think that he's a quarterback capable of leading a team to 9- and 10-win seasons.

But if John Skelton's potential is maxed out, I still think that's what he's capable of. I think he's able to be Matt Cassel. Is Matt Cassel going to win someone a Super Bowl? I think he can be a starter for a Super Bowl-winning team, but I'm not sure he's going to win someone a Super Bowl the way that Tom Brady or Drew Brees could.

I'm on the John Skelton 2012 bandwagon and have been. But unless you're going to invest resources on the offensive line and shift the offensive focus to the running game, I don't think that you are going to have sustained success with John Skelton.

In order to have sustained success with John Skelton, you have to change the coaching staff around him--the philosophical orientation of the offense. If you think the philosophical orientation of the offense has more potential than John Skelton, then you suffer through a 6-10 2012 and trade up to get Tyler Wilson in the 2013 NFL draft.

Unless the size of the football has changed the mechanics of throwing the football today is still the same as it was 40 years ago. What's the point of only comparing to short term guys like Matt Ryan or Matt Cassel? Peyton Manning was drafted 14 years ago. Tom Brady 12 years ago. Drew Brees 11 years ago. Aaron Rodgers cost his team a playoff win by overthrowing wide open receivers twice in the same game. Yet he still wins. Bobby Layne is still the career passing leader for the Detroit Lions. Sid Luckman for the Bears. 30,40 years ago is still relevant.

Skelton throws high. That does not mean he can't win because QBs who throw high have won in the past. And, guess what? He's been winning.

 

[kerouac9]

Unless the size of the football has changed the mechanics of throwing the football today is still the same as it was 40 years ago. What's the point of only comparing to short term guys like Matt Ryan or Matt Cassel? Peyton Manning was drafted 14 years ago. Tom Brady 12 years ago. Drew Brees 11 years ago. Aaron Rodgers cost his team a playoff win by overthrowing wide open receivers twice in the same game. Yet he still wins. Bobby Layne is still the career passing leader for the Detroit Lions. Sid Luckman for the Bears. 30,40 years ago is still relevant.

Skelton throws high. That does not mean he can't win because QBs who throw high have won in the past. And, guess what? He's been winning.

Because the structures of defenses and offenses have changed dramatically in the last 20 years. Draw the line where you think it's appropriate--maybe with Bill Walsh--but Mike Martz's offense--not the greatest show on turf, but just the offense--would've embarrased the Purple People Eaters or the Steelers or whatever.

Football is a continuing evolution. No one runs Jimmy Johnson's 4-3 defense as a base anymore because it's structural weaknesses were exposed by offenses, and defenses are forced to adapt.

Put Terry Bradshaw in a modern offense and he looks like John Skelton. Aikman wasn't asked to throw through the tiny windows that QBs are regularly expected to throw through today. Tom Brady and Drew Brees were average quarterbacks until offenses starting being designed to highlight their strengths--incredible accuracy and ball placement over fairly short distances.

The Raiders under Al Davis were designed under assumptions that were current in the 1970s, but no longer relevant in the late 20th Century and the early 21st. The only time the Raiders were successful in the past 15 years was when Jon Gruden put Davis on mute and installed a modified West Coast offense.

 

[Phrazbit]

Maybe you need refreshed.

Ryan Mallet in college:

You must be registered for see images

also, what has Ryan Mallet done. You could just as easily pikced any QB who hasn't played a game and said what a mistake it was to pass on him. Pure lunacy. And I like Mallet. Still lamenting not drafting him is ridiculous. If you have Tom Brady at QB, you can take a chance on talented coke heads.

We are talking about what the Cards should have done 1-2 years ago. Yes, he has not played yet, but this is not just picking some random guy of any roster who has not gotten a chance. Mallet was there, for the Cardinals at a spot where drafting him represented a HUGE value and was a position of extreme need. I am not saying the Cardinals will rue this move for ages, the point is people are claiming that we had to get Kolb because there were no other options... when the reality is the Cardinals deprived themselves of options.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

We are talking about what the Cards should have done 1-2 years ago. Yes, he has not played yet, but this is not just picking some random guy of any roster who has not gotten a chance. Mallet was there, for the Cardinals at a spot where drafting him represented a HUGE value and was a position of extreme need. I am not saying the Cardinals will rue this move for ages, the point is people are claiming that we had to get Kolb because there were no other options... when the reality is the Cardinals deprived themselves of options.

There was reason he was there in the 3rd round and the Cards weren't taking him anyway. Maurice Clarett was "huge value" in round 3 for Denver. How'd that work out? I'm glad the Cards steer away from guys with drugs in their past.

I get your point about the Cards passing on QB's in lieu of Kolb but I doubt he was ever even on their draft board. Besides, the Cards will get the better QB out of Arkansas come next April.

 

[kerouac9]

Ryan Mallett isn't even expected to be #2 on New England's depth chart this year. I don't know how anyone can make the argument right now that he'd be a superior option to Skelton right now, or even would've been last year. Skelton is a more mobile version of Ryan Mallett.

I don't think that drafting a cokehead quarterback in the third round of the 2011 NFL draft would've obviated the need to get a legitimate starting option in free agency that year.

 

[CtCardinals78]

Mike Jurecki just said a player told him "someone should get fired over this" yesterday if Kolb doesn't work out FWIW.

 

[Phrazbit]

Mike Jurecki just said a player told him "someone should get fired over this" yesterday if Kolb doesn't work out FWIW.

If thats true then it shows some real enmity in the locker room towards Kolb.

I can say if I was one of his O-linemen I certainly would not like him much.

 

[Duckjake]

Because the structures of defenses and offenses have changed dramatically in the last 20 years. Draw the line where you think it's appropriate--maybe with Bill Walsh--but Mike Martz's offense--not the greatest show on turf, but just the offense--would've embarrased the Purple People Eaters or the Steelers or whatever.

Football is a continuing evolution. No one runs Jimmy Johnson's 4-3 defense as a base anymore because it's structural weaknesses were exposed by offenses, and defenses are forced to adapt.

Put Terry Bradshaw in a modern offense and he looks like John Skelton. Aikman wasn't asked to throw through the tiny windows that QBs are regularly expected to throw through today. Tom Brady and Drew Brees were average quarterbacks until offenses starting being designed to highlight their strengths--incredible accuracy and ball placement over fairly short distances.

The Raiders under Al Davis were designed under assumptions that were current in the 1970s, but no longer relevant in the late 20th Century and the early 21st. The only time the Raiders were successful in the past 15 years was when Jon Gruden put Davis on mute and installed a modified West Coast offense.

That's all true but the fundamentals of blocking and tackling and throwing the football are still basically the same.

Despite all that you wrote passing yards per attempt hasn't changed since the 1960's. It's still around 7-8. Charlie Johnson career ypa 7.2. Jim Hart career ypa 6.8. Neil Lomax 7.2. Kurt Warner 7.9. John Skelton 2011 7.0. Drew Brees 7.4. Tom Brady 7.5. Peyton Manning 7.6. And the guys I compare Skelton to: Eli Manning 7.0. Joe Flacco 7.1

 

[kerouac9]

That's all true but the fundamentals of blocking and tackling and throwing the football are still basically the same.

Despite all that you wrote passing yards per attempt hasn't changed since the 1960's. It's still around 7-8. Charlie Johnson career ypa 7.2. Jim Hart career ypa 6.8. Neil Lomax 7.2. Kurt Warner 7.9. John Skelton 2011 7.0. Drew Brees 7.4. Tom Brady 7.5. Peyton Manning 7.6. And the guys I compare Skelton to: Eli Manning 7.0. Joe Flacco 7.1

Maybe, but the structures of the offenses and defenses have changed remarkably. Teams need to keep evolving just to keep up on both sides of the ball. Teams pass more, and more efficiently. What's the change in completion percentages for Charlie Johnson and Jim Hart? How often do you think those guys played out of three- and four-wide receiver sets?

Duck, the complexities of football at Texas's top high school programs likely would've baffled the pro quarterbacks of the 60s and 70s. They wouldn't have near the time to throw, and the windows would've been much smaller.

 

[Russ Smith]

Are you being sarcastic? He got caught drunk on the town once... it sure didnt stop the Cardinals from drafting Floyd.

If a dude is a repeat bonehead its a big concern, but a college kid with one public intoxication offense on his record and nothing else? I wouldnt sweat it.

And he was all the way down to the 3rd round! It was a very little risk and potentially gargantuan reward to take him right there. Furthermore our QB situation was (and still is) arguably the worst in the league at the time, to pass on a potential blue chip prospect that falls into your lap in the 3rd round is completely inexcusable.

No I'm referring to the pre combine rumors that mallett had a major drug use issue in college. And the post combine rumors that Mallett admitted to every NFL team who interviewed him that he'd used drugs, including cocaine, at Arkansas. And the one unnamed NFL GM who told NBC(?) that Mallett was the first QB he'd ever interviewed who admitted a drug use issue to him and said it impressed us, we were debating taking him entirely off our board until he owned up to it.

That's why Mallett fell, he apparently tested positive multiple times at Arkansas.

At the combine he got mad at reporters who kept asking him about the rumors and blasted whoever had "leaked" it right before and then walked out of the interview.

The Cards almost never take guys with a history like that, certainly not as a QB.

 

[Russ Smith]

Unless the size of the football has changed the mechanics of throwing the football today is still the same as it was 40 years ago. What's the point of only comparing to short term guys like Matt Ryan or Matt Cassel? Peyton Manning was drafted 14 years ago. Tom Brady 12 years ago. Drew Brees 11 years ago. Aaron Rodgers cost his team a playoff win by overthrowing wide open receivers twice in the same game. Yet he still wins. Bobby Layne is still the career passing leader for the Detroit Lions. Sid Luckman for the Bears. 30,40 years ago is still relevant.

Skelton throws high. That does not mean he can't win because QBs who throw high have won in the past. And, guess what? He's been winning.

I thnk he meant the game has changed. PI rules, Hart played with one of the best OL's of all time I think he got sacked 5 times one season(or was it 8?). Offense was totally different we routinely played 2 backs, 3 WR's wasn't that common.

Hart didn't play in a system that essentially guaranteed the QB would be hit alot and had to make quick decisions and accurate throws to punish teams for bringing the pressure.

I loved Hart but I don't think he'd succeed in Whiz' offense.

 

[Chopper0080]

The Kolb trade seemed like a knee-jerk, splash move that was pushed by people with power who have little actual scouting/football knowledge. The Cardinals have had these issues before, and they need to develop a strong, football savvy personality in the front office to combat them.

 

[Denny Green Fan]

LMAO

 

[Denny Green Fan]

If you find yourself hungry but you're in the bathroom, you dont eat the soap because its the best option available. You go looking for something better, even if it means you have to wait a bit.

They backed themselves into a corner because of previous QB mistakes and because they ignored the problem in the 2011 draft (according to some because they had already stupidly committed to trading for Kolb). I cant give them a pat on the back and a "good effort", for making the worst of a bad situation... that they put themselves in.

I wish now we would of traded up a few spots in the second round for Andy Dalton last year

 

[CtCardinals78]

This seems a bit extreme but I agree Wizs "system" seems to be a little overly complex based on what we have seen with everyone besides Warner. Can't he dumb it down just a bit?

A"little" overly complex? No, its a very overly complex system that blows. Very little of it works and that's illustrated by the fact that going into his 6th year of coaching he's on his 8th QB. With the exception of one of those there has been a QB competition, even open competitions all throughout the season. Whisehunt's offense SUCKS and it sucks bad. The numbers don't lie. The only time this offense worked well was when it was led by a HOF QB and Haley. I don't care what he did in Pittsburgh. Does anyone honestly believe that Cowher would have let any Pittsburgh team look like any of these Cardinals offenses? If the Cardinals finish below .500 this year I hope Whisenhunt gets canned and his staff follows him out the door with the exception of Horton who should be the next HC.

 

[NJCardFan]

Mac and Keim swung hard on Anquan Boldin, and it was a home run.

Boldin was a 2nd round pick. IMO, they stole Boldin, not swing hard because they took a risk. Remember, this is the draft where we skipped on getting Terrell Suggs, traded down to have 2 1st round picks and took 2 busts.

 

[Duckjake]

A"little" overly complex? No, its a very overly complex system that blows. Very little of it works and that's illustrated by the fact that going into his 6th year of coaching he's on his 8th QB. With the exception of one of those there has been a QB competition, even open competitions all throughout the season. Whisehunt's offense SUCKS and it sucks bad. The numbers don't lie. The only time this offense worked well was when it was led by a HOF QB and Haley. I don't care what he did in Pittsburgh. Does anyone honestly believe that Cowher would have let any Pittsburgh team look like any of these Cardinals offenses? If the Cardinals finish below .500 this year I hope Whisenhunt gets canned and his staff follows him out the door with the exception of Horton who should be the next HC.

Bottom 10 in scoring the last two seasons despite 14 TDs from Defense and Special Teams is all the proof you need that the system has stopped working.

 

[Shane]

Boldin was a 2nd round pick. IMO, they stole Boldin, not swing hard because they took a risk. Remember, this is the draft where we skipped on getting Terrell Suggs, traded down to have 2 1st round picks and took 2 busts.

One bust not two!

 

[Crazy Canuck]

One bust not two!