If Kolb fails someone better be held accountable this offseason

[Phrazbit]

Everything you guys are complaining about are after the fact. Nothing but hindsight gripes.



Had we got Peyton, and his nerves were all screwed up and he couldnt play, youd be complaining about pursuing him too.

Kolb didnt become a bad player after he got here, he was not good to begin with and there were plenty of people who felt that way before the trade.

There would have been wasted season at QB if we didn't acquire Kolb. None of the QB's that were available at the time have played at a high level. To assume they would have come in and played well in Arizona is a pretty big leap. For example, just because you thought Matt Hasselback(using him as a random QB example) would have been a better fit doesn't mean he would have. And, he may have had zero interest of playing in Arizona. Kolb was interested in Arizona, the Cards were interested in him, and he was generally considered the best QB available. It was a good move at the time.

The Cards should have been investing in the QB position as soon as Warner retired. Its already been said in this thread but if cutting Leinart was a remote possibility then the 2010 draft should have included a QB in the first few rounds, and/or they should have found a more viable alternative than Anderson, who was clearly awful before he ever signed. They then ignored the position in 2011 draft too despite a huuuuge need.

Kolb was in some peoples opinion the best guy available, but it was an awful QB market, Kolb included. And Kolb was not just damaging in the scope of last year, his stench has carried over into this season and his cap hit will be rough next year even when they get rid of him. The Cards panicked into a quick fix and payed a premium for a bad player. It was a bad move at the time that only looks good to some people because of desperation... but moves based on desperation are typically bad ones. Its an even worse move now. They never should have gotten him to begin with, and they should have released him back in March when they had the opportunity to get out, monetarily, cheap.

Unless Skelton develops in a big way we will be 3 years removed from Warner and the team will have yet to begin to develop a viable option for the future. I cant pat them on the head for that.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Everything you guys are complaining about are after the fact. Nothing but hindsight gripes.

(in the voice of Inigo Montoya)you keep using that word. i do not think you know wha that word means.

 

[CtCardinals78]

can't develop QB's if you don't adjust -- fact.

John Skelton had low expectations with high upside. He has made minor improvements, but nothing significant has changed in 2+ years with Whis.

Whis has had too many trial and error's to overlook. If you're an NFL HC and you were given 5 QB's to develop, and not one of them even made it to average, then you're in the wrong profession.

Yup. I'm going to look at this season as I did Dennis Green's last season with the Cardinals. I'm not expecting a whole lot, but I'm ok with it because I know in the end the Cardinals will have a new HC in the near future. This team cannot progress any further with Whisenhunt unless he drastically changes his system that "works" and is built with players with great moxie and intangibles. Something he has proven time and time again he won't do. This team plateaued 4 years ago and has been in a steady decline ever since.

 

[joko4]

All things being the same, except if Grimm had been gone for three years, would Kevin Kolb be having as much trouble at games?

 

[az1965]

Yup. I'm going to look at this season as I did Dennis Green's last season with the Cardinals. I'm not expecting a whole lot, but I'm ok with it because I know in the end the Cardinals will have a new HC in the near future. This team cannot progress any further with Whisenhunt unless he drastically changes his system that "works" and is built with players with great moxie and intangibles. Something he has proven time and time again he won't do. This team plateaued 4 years ago and has been in a steady decline ever since.

Whoa... we went to super bowl four years ago! Do you expect to be in super bowl every year??? We went to playoffs the following year and were beaten in the divisional round by the ultimate super bowl champions. I do agree that we should have addressed the QB situation much better and is one of the main reason past two seasons of struggling.

Whiz's record:

2007: 8-8
2008: 9-7 (division title, conference title, went to super bowl)
2009: 10-6 (division title)
2010: 6-10
2011: 8-8

Only one losing season for a franchise that was armpit of the NFL.

 

[CtCardinals78]

Whoa... we went to super bowl four years ago! Do you expect to be in super bowl every year??? We went to playoffs the following year and were beaten in the divisional round by the ultimate super bowl champions. I do agree that we should have addressed the QB situation much better and is one of the main reason past two seasons of struggling.

Whiz's record:

2007: 8-8
2008: 9-7 (division title, conference title, went to super bowl)
2009: 10-6 (division title)
2010: 6-10
2011: 8-8

Only one losing season for a franchise that was armpit of the NFL.

Yup sure did. Where are those players now that got the Cardinals to the Super Bowl? Better yet, who replaced them? In 2010 the division was ripe for the taking yet horrendous personnel moves and coaching turned a two time division champ into a 6-10 team. A 7-9 team won the division that year. Let's not discount last years 1-6 start either. Yes, the turn around was nice, yes the staff deserve lots of credit, but this staff also deserves immense amount of blame for this teams consistent underperformance. If 8-8 seasons and one Super Bowl appearance 4 years ago makes some of you happy, more power to you. I expect much, much more with the amount of talent this team has. If this team finishes any worse than 8-8 this year Ken Whisenhunt doesn't deserve to finish out his contract unless he drastically changes how he coaches these players IMO. As awesome and exciting as his first three seasons were his last two and possibly third are as bad and frustrating.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

Kolb didnt become a bad player after he got here, he was not good to begin with and there were plenty of people who felt that way before the trade.



The Cards should have been investing in the QB position as soon as Warner retired. Its already been said in this thread but if cutting Leinart was a remote possibility then the 2010 draft should have included a QB in the first few rounds, and/or they should have found a more viable alternative than Anderson, who was clearly awful before he ever signed. They then ignored the position in 2011 draft too despite a huuuuge need.

Kolb was in some peoples opinion the best guy available, but it was an awful QB market, Kolb included. And Kolb was not just damaging in the scope of last year, his stench has carried over into this season and his cap hit will be rough next year even when they get rid of him. The Cards panicked into a quick fix and payed a premium for a bad player. It was a bad move at the time that only looks good to some people because of desperation... but moves based on desperation are typically bad ones. Its an even worse move now. They never should have gotten him to begin with, and they should have released him back in March when they had the opportunity to get out, monetarily, cheap.

Unless Skelton develops in a big way we will be 3 years removed from Warner and the team will have yet to begin to develop a viable option for the future. I cant pat them on the head for that.

But they didn't address it back then. It's the same as saying they should have drafted AP over Levi. That may be right, but that's not what happened. When they went to address the situation Kolb was the best alternative.

Evenso, 2010 was one of the worst QB draft around. Bradford, Clausen , and McCoy were the top 3. In 2009, the next two QB's selected after the Cards picked Wells were Pat White and Stephen McGee. In 2011, I wouldn't have taken any QB, other than Newton(now, not then) over Peterson. So I really don't see where the vibale options were in the draft. Hell, Skelton may turn out to be the best viable option from those drafts.

 

[Shane]

But they didn't address it back then. It's the same as saying they should have drafted AP over Levi. That may be right, but that's not what happened. When they went to address the situation Kolb was the best alternative.

Evenso, 2010 was one of the worst QB draft around. Bradford, Clausen , and McCoy were the top 3. In 2009, the next two QB's selected after the Cards picked Wells were Pat White and Stephen McGee. In 2011, I wouldn't have taken any QB, other than Newton(now, not then) over Peterson. So I really don't see where the vibale options were in the draft. Hell, Skelton may turn out to be the best viable option from those drafts.

Yep!

 

[kerouac9]

But they didn't address it back then. It's the same as saying they should have drafted AP over Levi. That may be right, but that's not what happened. When they went to address the situation Kolb was the best alternative.

Evenso, 2010 was one of the worst QB draft around. Bradford, Clausen , and McCoy were the top 3. In 2009, the next two QB's selected after the Cards picked Wells were Pat White and Stephen McGee. In 2011, I wouldn't have taken any QB, other than Newton(now, not then) over Peterson. So I really don't see where the vibale options were in the draft. Hell, Skelton may turn out to be the best viable option from those drafts.

That's just not the case. Maybe (maybe) from a pure talent/potential perspective that was true. But that wasn't the only concern. The Cards should've had a sliding scale based on cost of contract and cost of compensation. When all three variables were considered, it's difficult to conclude that Kolb actually was the best alternative.

The rest of the NFL concluded that, clearly.

 

[john h]

If you find yourself hungry but you're in the bathroom, you dont eat the soap because its the best option available. You go looking for something better, even if it means you have to wait a bit.

They backed themselves into a corner because of previous QB mistakes and because they ignored the problem in the 2011 draft (according to some because they had already stupidly committed to trading for Kolb). I cant give them a pat on the back and a "good effort", for making the worst of a bad situation... that they put themselves in.

You are right on when you say many thought Kolb was the wrong pick before the trade. It looked even worse after we saw the details of the deal. It is likely there were multiple people in a room who came to a consensus on obtaining him. Probably a few desenters. I would think that Michael, Graves, QB scouts, Whiz, QB Coach would set in on such a meeting. At least this the way I would run a selection. It could be that Michael stood up and said do the deal what ever it takes. I would hope not but it could happen. I certainly would get my best most informed people involved in this decision and lay all the positive and negatives out to discuss before making a deal of this magnitude. There was so much hype in the media at that time about the Cards getting Kolb that our team may have been over influenced. Also Andy Reid and his crew did a great job of making him out to be what he is not. Reid should be congratulated as he probably made the best deal of the season in the NFL if it was not the Manning deal. I do not recall if we had more negative comments on the deal or positive on this board but there sure were people against it even before we knew how much we had to give up. I doubt we have one person on the board now who thinks that was a good deal for the Cards.

I think in a deal like this that has gone bad that the team that met and decided to do it should review where they went wrong. Find out how you came to a bad conclusion so you may learn from it. There were some facts for everyone to see that should have waved a warning flag. Why would Andy Reid give up on a QBOTF? It is not like he had a QB who would not get injured. In fact his QB has already been injured in pre- season this year. Mike Viick a running QB will always be injury prone so you should have a good backup. It would seem that would be Kolb. Kolb really had very little experience to evaluate. It was like buying a pig n a polk. The asking price was absurd. There were QBs out there that had shown they could play in the NFL. Perhaps not QBOTF but at least a serviceable QB until we could find one.How about the Tennessee backup now from Seattle. He was available. Failures should be analyzed more than successes. I doubt the Cards would hold such a meeting as it does not appear to be an organization as much as an autocracy. We have always been a rogue type organization not run like most successful NFL franchises and not operating by the same rules as a good organization would. Mr. B's reluctance to extend contracts before they were up was a good example. I recall him being in Europe and us not being able to sign a big player because he was not here and could not be reached. Can you imagine such a deal with other teams. I hope and think Michael has brought us into the real world but probably not all the way. I also would think he sure does keep his father in the loop as he is not one to just sit there and eat his ice cream. He would likely have been asked his opinion on the Kolb deal even if he was not at a meeting. I never see Mr. B just going away. he will always be involved to some extent. I see Kolb gone at the end of this football year. At least we tried and just did not sit there and do nothing. A guy like George Steinbrenner would fire someone right or wrong he would place some responsibility.

It is what it is now and I might consider letting him go and letting one of the other QBs be the backup. If he is a bad apple then nothing is going to change. However most think we should keep him and I can go with that. What did we learn from all this?

 

[Phrazbit]

But they didn't address it back then. It's the same as saying they should have drafted AP over Levi. That may be right, but that's not what happened. When they went to address the situation Kolb was the best alternative.

Evenso, 2010 was one of the worst QB draft around. Bradford, Clausen , and McCoy were the top 3. In 2009, the next two QB's selected after the Cards picked Wells were Pat White and Stephen McGee. In 2011, I wouldn't have taken any QB, other than Newton(now, not then) over Peterson. So I really don't see where the vibale options were in the draft. Hell, Skelton may turn out to be the best viable option from those drafts.

That's just not the case. Maybe (maybe) from a pure talent/potential perspective that was true. But that wasn't the only concern. The Cards should've had a sliding scale based on cost of contract and cost of compensation. When all three variables were considered, it's difficult to conclude that Kolb actually was the best alternative.

The rest of the NFL concluded that, clearly.

Exactly. Kolb was in some people's opinions the "best" but it was not a good group of QBs. Just as you (CBus) knock the QB quality of the 2010 draft as a justification for the Cards ignoring their need, the QBs that were there post lockout were bad options. So the Cards went and got, by far, most expensive one in trade and salary. IMO, they made the worst of a bad situation, at it was a situation they put themselves in.

 

[conraddobler]

No One Will Be.

Hmmm perhaps that's incorrect, I should say the right "person/persons" won't be held accountable.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

This was a complete organization buy-in. There's no one to take the hit.

 

[Duckjake]

Yup sure did. Where are those players now that got the Cardinals to the Super Bowl? Better yet, who replaced them? In 2010 the division was ripe for the taking yet horrendous personnel moves and coaching turned a two time division champ into a 6-10 team. A 7-9 team won the division that year. Let's not discount last years 1-6 start either. Yes, the turn around was nice, yes the staff deserve lots of credit, but this staff also deserves immense amount of blame for this teams consistent underperformance. If 8-8 seasons and one Super Bowl appearance 4 years ago makes some of you happy, more power to you. I expect much, much more with the amount of talent this team has. If this team finishes any worse than 8-8 this year Ken Whisenhunt doesn't deserve to finish out his contract unless he drastically changes how he coaches these players IMO. As awesome and exciting as his first three seasons were his last two and possibly third are as bad and frustrating.

5-11 and bottom of the league in most statistical categories. A 3-15 run. A stretch as bad as any in Arizona Cardinal history. CKW is a Tale of Two Coaches. We've had the best of times and the worst of times.

I'm expecting the worst of times again this season. But what the heck we've made it through plenty of 5-11 seasons, one more won't make any difference.

 

[Darkside]

5-11 and bottom of the league in most statistical categories. A 3-15 run. A stretch as bad as any in Arizona Cardinal history. CKW is a Tale of Two Coaches. We've had the best of times and the worst of times.

I'm expecting the worst of times again this season. But what the heck we've made it through plenty of 5-11 seasons, one more won't make any difference.

Really don't want to do 5-11, or 6-10 or anything like that. Like you, I've endured so many losing seasons. It's kind of a tease, to have us go, even in 2007, 8-8 and give us hope, then in 2008 make the SB, in 2009-10 go 10-6, to the point that we think we're over the hump. To go from that back to sh*t is almost unfair. I'm tired of sucking. Too many decades of suckage.

 

[Cardiac]

That's just not the case. Maybe (maybe) from a pure talent/potential perspective that was true. But that wasn't the only concern. The Cards should've had a sliding scale based on cost of contract and cost of compensation. When all three variables were considered, it's difficult to conclude that Kolb actually was the best alternative.

The rest of the NFL concluded that, clearly.

I will buy into the sliding scale bit for any other position except QB.

If Kolb was 75% of what we/they thought he would be the Cards make the playoffs last year.

 

[kerouac9]

I will buy into the sliding scale bit for any other position except QB.

If Kolb was 75% of what we/they thought he would be the Cards make the playoffs last year.

Seriously? What did you think that Kolb was going to be last year? I think that the most anyone could've reasonably hoped for was somewhere between top 6-15. Even that probably wasn't reasonable because Kolb hasn't been a winner with the Eagles, and quickly illustrated that he wasn't a winner here.

The Cards have gotten themselves into trouble in free agency by asking themselves what the best case scenario for a player is. Instead, they should be asking themselves what happens if everything goes wrong.

 

[Cardiac]

Seriously? What did you think that Kolb was going to be last year? I think that the most anyone could've reasonably hoped for was somewhere between top 6-15. Even that probably wasn't reasonable because Kolb hasn't been a winner with the Eagles, and quickly illustrated that he wasn't a winner here.

The Cards have gotten themselves into trouble in free agency by asking themselves what the best case scenario for a player is. Instead, they should be asking themselves what happens if everything goes wrong.

I'm sure you remember better than I what you thought Kolb would produce but it is far better than what we saw last year. Was it 20 TD's and 7 picks?

Point is I think at some point most of us thought Kolb's floor was higher than what we saw.

Think about how this team won 8 games with basically 2 of the worst QB performances in the league last year. Improving to 9 or 10 wins is a given if you have Cassel type QB play.