If Potter was a third or second round pick

[Cbus cardsfan]

Meh, he has good feet and that is hard to teach. He has a long ways to go physically, but if he can manage that, he could be a keeper. There is a reason he was once touted as a top prospect in college.

There's also a reason he lasted until round 7. I didn't say he's not a keeper. I see him as more of a depth player than a starting LT.

 

[Quinn McCollum]

I like to see a OL of Potter, Levi, Barrett Jones, Warmack, Massie then any other OL combination

 

[JeffGollin]

What I can't help but wonder is (assuming the collective wisdom on this board is accurate) how our FO and coaching staff could have whiffed so badly on Colledge and Snyder.

I mean, both had plenty of game tape to look at, and we played SF and GB more than a couple of times over the 2 years before we signed them. So where did we go wrong?

Was it laziness (did our FO ignore game tape and rely on 2nd or 3rd hand info)? Did the two players suddenly do a 180 from their previous seasons and suddenly suck? Did our medical staff fail to uncover unreported injuries? Were they good in their original systems but couldn't function in a new Cardinal playing environment? Was there friction with Grimm or did they find it impossible to function under Grimm?

The reason I ask is - (assuming these guys are as bad as most of you say), we're apparently stuck with two expensive albatrosses around our necks that (a) are crippling us cap-wise and (b) causing us to suck at both OG positions.

Unless we better understand the cause & effect nature of our predicament, we're likely to repeat what's turned out to be a franchise-killer in the future.

 

[GatorAZ]

We won't be drafting a Tackle cause our 3 weakest positions on the OL are RG, OC and LG. Replacing Potter-Colledge with Levi-Warmack does so much in the running game but the Sendlein-Snyder is still a massive problem. Two interior lineman need to be taken in the first 3 rounds IMO.

 

[DoTheDew]

It's hard to give an accurate assessment of Potter and Massie for that matter because of all the moving parts we had on offense.

What we do know is that we gave up most of our sacks early in the year and were actually a solid to above average pass blocking team the last 1/3 of the season.

How much of that has to do with Massie improving or Potter getting in the lineup and improving? How much has to do with our injuries at RB early in the year? How much of our reduced sack rate as the year went on has to do with Kolb getting hurt?

 

[Stout]

I agree with the OP. If he was a high draft pick, we wouldn't be doubting Potter.

 

[MWOOD92]

I agree with the OP. If he was a high draft pick, we wouldn't be doubting Potter.

But he's not a high draft pick. He's a 7th round draft pick. There's a reason he was taken so low. So unless he can take on Aldon Smith 1 on 1 with no help... he will continue to be doubted.

 

[Cardiac]

It appeared to me that while Potter and Massie did improve as the year unfolded they also started getting more help in pass pro. Fewer targets in the passing game but more time for them to get open.

Is it possible that Snyder and College were not able to fully focus on their jobs because they had to help or couldn't trust the OT's? Does their performance improve with better OT's on the unit?

I do think we need to draft an Olineman in the 1st or 2nd round and another sometime later in the draft.

I also lean towards those who believe the OG's are a bigger problem than the OT's at this point but wouldn't be upset with an OT taken at 7.

 

[cardsfanmd]

I don't think that Potter's draft status really matters at this point. If he were a second-round pick, it'd probably be more disappointing that he couldn't beat out D'Anthony Batiste earlier in the year.

Potter required a lot of help in pass pro, and was consistently overpowered in the run game. If he's been working all offseason on getting stronger, then he'll out-perform his draft status and maybe push Levi Brown for his starting job.

I don't really expect that to happen. I think that Potter has the most value as a swing OT/OG who can be your sixth-best OL.

This.

 

[kerouac9]

What I can't help but wonder is (assuming the collective wisdom on this board is accurate) how our FO and coaching staff could have whiffed so badly on Colledge and Snyder.

I mean, both had plenty of game tape to look at, and we played SF and GB more than a couple of times over the 2 years before we signed them. So where did we go wrong?

Was it laziness (did our FO ignore game tape and rely on 2nd or 3rd hand info)? Did the two players suddenly do a 180 from their previous seasons and suddenly suck? Did our medical staff fail to uncover unreported injuries? Were they good in their original systems but couldn't function in a new Cardinal playing environment? Was there friction with Grimm or did they find it impossible to function under Grimm?

The reason I ask is - (assuming these guys are as bad as most of you say), we're apparently stuck with two expensive albatrosses around our necks that (a) are crippling us cap-wise and (b) causing us to suck at both OG positions.

Unless we better understand the cause & effect nature of our predicament, we're likely to repeat what's turned out to be a franchise-killer in the future.

I mostly demerit Grimm's unusual system for grading line play. If you remember back a few years, Urban reported that Grimm didn't grade every lineman in each game, he graded the unit for their play. If that's the case, and you extend it out to evaluating other teams' offensive lines, what does that mean?

It means that if a player from a good line is available, you're going to believe that he's a good player. At the time of the transactions, both Green Bay and San Francisco had good lines--especially the latter. Because we had a faulty evaluation system, we decided that the weak link on those teams lines as as good as the average (or strongest?) link. And we paid them according to that evaluation.

Because this front office is dumb.

 

[Stout]

But he's not a high draft pick. He's a 7th round draft pick. There's a reason he was taken so low. So unless he can take on Aldon Smith 1 on 1 with no help... he will continue to be doubted.

Thanks for proving my point by using draft round as a prejudice. What round a player is picked in means nothing once they're on the roster--it's how they play that matters, and Potter played well in his first season. Draft pick status means nothing, or else Levi Brown would be slightly more valuable than Adrian Peterson.

Oh, and name me five LTs that can consistently block Aldon Smith 1 on 1.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

Oh, and name me five LTs that can consistently block Aldon Smith 1 on 1.

It depends on whether Justin Smith is playing and able to hold for him, or not.

 

[Stout]

It depends on whether Justin Smith is playing and able to hold for him, or not.

Well said!

 

[Jetstream Green]

We won't be drafting a Tackle cause our 3 weakest positions on the OL are RG, OC and LG. Replacing Potter-Colledge with Levi-Warmack does so much in the running game but the Sendlein-Snyder is still a massive problem. Two interior lineman need to be taken in the first 3 rounds IMO.

That then means you believe we will draft on need in the first round and I will say this, if Joeckel slips to us for some strange reason...we will draft a OT

 

[GatorAZ]

That then means you believe we will draft on need in the first round and I will say this, if Joeckel slips to us for some strange reason...we will draft a OT

Not necessarily. If guys like Joeckel and Fisher are gone (which I think they will be) Warmack is BPA.

 

[Vermont Maverick]

It's hard to believe Levi and Massie will play all 32 games.

Why? Massie was 16 for 16, and Levi was 80 for 80 until last year.

 

[Vermont Maverick]

I have a feeling there will be a run on OTs early in this draft that will make some team want to move up to land one.

I think so, too. I see a definite possibility of Tackle going 1-2 or 1 and 4. The Browns pick right before us.

Prediction - San Diego worries that we are taking a tackle, and moves in front of us to take Lane Johnson.

 

[Vermont Maverick]

Colledge is not as bad as this board makes him out to be. He IS overpaid, but he's ok. Snyder is the biggest problem, and though I like Sendlein, he's not that good either. Seems like he might be smart, which is important at Center, but I have no way of knowing that.

The Line would look A LOT better with just taking Warmack and getting Levi back:

Levi-Colledge-Sendlein-Warmack-Massie. Swing OT: Potter Swing OG: Kelemete.

Consider drafting a Center in the 3rd or 4th. We don't need to draft lineman in the first two rounds.

 

[Chopper0080]

Colledge is not as bad as this board makes him out to be. He IS overpaid, but he's ok. Snyder is the biggest problem, and though I like Sendlein, he's not that good either. Seems like he might be smart, which is important at Center, but I have no way of knowing that.

The Line would look A LOT better with just taking Warmack and getting Levi back:

Levi-Colledge-Sendlein-Warmack-Massie. Swing OT: Potter Swing OG: Kelemete.

Consider drafting a Center in the 3rd or 4th. We don't need to draft lineman in the first two rounds.

We watched a different Daryn Colledge last year then. All I saw was a guy who was not strong enough to get a push at the LOS, not athletic enough to block at the next level, and not athletic enough to handle stunts along the defensive line. I agree that you could hide his issues if you had studs playing around him, but we are nowhere close to being in that position.

 

[Vermont Maverick]

We watched a different Daryn Colledge last year then. All I saw was a guy who was not strong enough to get a push at the LOS, not athletic enough to block at the next level, and not athletic enough to handle stunts along the defensive line. I agree that you could hide his issues if you had studs playing around him, but we are nowhere close to being in that position.

We watched a guy that had possibly the worst left tackle of the decade to his left and an adequate Center to his right for the first half of the season, and backups-at-best to his right at Center and a Rookie 7th rounder to his left of the seond half of the season.

He was better the year before with Levi next to him.

He's not great, but he doesn't have to be changed out immediately either.

 

[Chopper0080]

What I can't help but wonder is (assuming the collective wisdom on this board is accurate) how our FO and coaching staff could have whiffed so badly on Colledge and Snyder.

I mean, both had plenty of game tape to look at, and we played SF and GB more than a couple of times over the 2 years before we signed them. So where did we go wrong?

Was it laziness (did our FO ignore game tape and rely on 2nd or 3rd hand info)? Did the two players suddenly do a 180 from their previous seasons and suddenly suck? Did our medical staff fail to uncover unreported injuries? Were they good in their original systems but couldn't function in a new Cardinal playing environment? Was there friction with Grimm or did they find it impossible to function under Grimm?

The reason I ask is - (assuming these guys are as bad as most of you say), we're apparently stuck with two expensive albatrosses around our necks that (a) are crippling us cap-wise and (b) causing us to suck at both OG positions.

Unless we better understand the cause & effect nature of our predicament, we're likely to repeat what's turned out to be a franchise-killer in the future.

K9 responded with a solid post, but I figured I would throw in my two cents.

In my mind, I see it as a mix of desperation, poor scouting, and hubris. The reason I feel this way is because of the Kevin Kolb and Stewart Bradley additions as well as the Colledge and Snyder additions.

In all cases the Cardinals were desperate to find a player to fill certain roles. The team was desperate for a QB when they acquired Kolb, were desperate for a physical SILB with Bradley, desperate for a LG replacement for Faneca with Colledge, and desperate for a RG to replace Lutui in Snyder.

In all cases the team did a terrible job scouting for their system. They traded for a west coast QB coming off an injury to run a vertical passing game. They signed a 4-3 MLB from a team with a poor LB corp to play the SILB spot in a 3-4 where Bradley would not be protected as much from offensive linemen. They signed an OG whose previous team moved from LT to LG and then let go because of poor production. That same player was not strong enough to move to RT and not athletic enough to play LT. Then they signed a swing linemen to play RG from a team that put such a priority on their offensive line that they had drafted 3 of their 5 in the first round. That same player was not physical enough to play RT and had never been considered a good athlete.

Finally, the team showed both its disdain for playing young players and its belief that it could "coach up" these failed/limited players. The coaches thought they could change Kob from a West Coast QB to a vertical QB despite his physical limitations rather than acquire a rookie QB who would have at least had the physical tools to execute the offense. The thought they could teach a 4-3 MLB in Stewart Bradley to play as a SILB because of his size and discounted his inability to play with leverage to take on lead blockers. They did this instead of drafting a player to develop at a lower financial risk. They thought they could coach up a failed LT in Daryn Colledge with athletic limitations rather than draft an athletic linemen to teach the system to. They thought they could coach up a failed RT in Adam Snyder who struggled with physicality instead of drafting a physical RG and teaching him the system.

This is why smart teams prefer to build thought the draft. If you miss on a 3rd round OG, you end up having to eat maybe 500k in bonus money. If you miss on a FA OG, you end up having to eat 3-6mil in bonus money. The same goes for QBs and LBs. This is why it is almost a better strategy in free agency to either spend on one or two top level players or a bunch of very low levels players rather than spend on a handful of mid level guys. Your risk is higher with the mid level guys because you will have to pay mid level bonus money, but you have less proof of those player's ability to play at a high level.

 

[Totally_Red]

K9 responded with a solid post, but I figured I would throw in my two cents.

In my mind, I see it as a mix of desperation, poor scouting, and hubris. The reason I feel this way is because of the Kevin Kolb and Stewart Bradley additions as well as the Colledge and Snyder additions.

In all cases the Cardinals were desperate to find a player to fill certain roles. The team was desperate for a QB when they acquired Kolb, were desperate for a physical SILB with Bradley, desperate for a LG replacement for Faneca with Colledge, and desperate for a RG to replace Lutui in Snyder.

In all cases the team did a terrible job scouting for their system. They traded for a west coast QB coming off an injury to run a vertical passing game. They signed a 4-3 MLB from a team with a poor LB corp to play the SILB spot in a 3-4 where Bradley would not be protected as much from offensive linemen. They signed an OG whose previous team moved from LT to LG and then let go because of poor production. That same player was not strong enough to move to RT and not athletic enough to play LT. Then they signed a swing linemen to play RG from a team that put such a priority on their offensive line that they had drafted 3 of their 5 in the first round. That same player was not physical enough to play RT and had never been considered a good athlete.

Finally, the team showed both its disdain for playing young players and its belief that it could "coach up" these failed/limited players. The coaches thought they could change Kob from a West Coast QB to a vertical QB despite his physical limitations rather than acquire a rookie QB who would have at least had the physical tools to execute the offense. The thought they could teach a 4-3 MLB in Stewart Bradley to play as a SILB because of his size and discounted his inability to play with leverage to take on lead blockers. They did this instead of drafting a player to develop at a lower financial risk. They thought they could coach up a failed LT in Daryn Colledge with athletic limitations rather than draft an athletic linemen to teach the system to. They thought they could coach up a failed RT in Adam Snyder who struggled with physicality instead of drafting a physical RG and teaching him the system.

This is why smart teams prefer to build thought the draft. If you miss on a 3rd round OG, you end up having to eat maybe 500k in bonus money. If you miss on a FA OG, you end up having to eat 3-6mil in bonus money. The same goes for QBs and LBs. This is why it is almost a better strategy in free agency to either spend on one or two top level players or a bunch of very low levels players rather than spend on a handful of mid level guys. Your risk is higher with the mid level guys because you will have to pay mid level bonus money, but you have less proof of those player's ability to play at a high level.

Hey quit messing around and add me to the official Tyler Wilson supporters list!

 

[Chopper0080]

We watched a guy that had possibly the worst left tackle of the decade to his left and an adequate Center to his right for the first half of the season, and backups-at-best to his right at Center and a Rookie 7th rounder to his left of the seond half of the season.

He was better the year before with Levi next to him.

He's not great, but he doesn't have to be changed out immediately either.

The problem is that you are still putting an OG who has athletic limitations between a LT with athletic limitations and the same C who was adequate at best last year and has strength limitations. Yes, Colledge could be servicable between Joe Thomas and Alex Mack, but we do not have a LT or a C of that caliber on our roster.

 

[Quinn McCollum]

They thought they could coach up a failed LT in Daryn Colledge with athletic limitations rather than draft an athletic linemen to teach the system to. They thought they could coach up a failed RT in Adam Snyder who struggled with physicality instead of drafting a physical RG and teaching him the system

How is he a failed LT he was drafted to play Guard. Only played Tackle when one of the tackles got hurt. Outside of that he was Green bay LG from his rookie year until he came to Arizona.

 

[Chopper0080]

How is he a failed LT he was drafted to play Guard. Only played Tackle when one of the tackles got hurt. Outside of that he was Green bay LG from his rookie year until he came to Arizona.

I will have to get back to you with a reference but Colledge was drafted as an OT out of college (2nd round pick) and then played OT for Green Bay up until their Super Bowl year when he was moved inside to OG.

We obviously recall it differently and, as I said, I will look to find reference material.