IF the "best case" happened

[slinslin]

Bobcats take White, Cavs pick and cash.

Phoenix Suns might have ~15M$ cash to spend this offseason.

So if they can sign Kobe they still need to sign Vujanic and hopefully they could get McDyess back very cheap.

Win the lottery and have the #1 pick.

That still leaves a lot to be desired.

Voshkul
Amare
Marion
Kobe
JJ/Barbosa

+lottery pick

The rest?
- Cabarkapa still needs to prove himself and doesn't look like he will be a real contributor next season already.
- Lampe doesn't get playing time to even evaluate.
- Vujanic is a rookie PG probably won't be better than Barbosa this season.
- Jacobsen is a bust.
- Eisley hurts the team more than he helps.
- McDyess could help a lot but you can't rely on him being healthy.


Best case again would be to sign and trade for Kobe somehow either using Marion or JJ which is ridiculous thought because the Lakers would definately not take Eisley with JJ's small contract.

We need Kobe but we also need 2-3 capable players. We have no depth in case of injury that we can rely on.

 

[Chaz]

Originally posted by slinslin
- Eisley hurts the team more than he helps.

I just don't agree with this. Have you even watched the games or are you just going off stats?

Eisley is a veteran point guard. He does things that don't show up on the stat line. He may make some turnovers and take ill-advised shots at times but I think he had prevented a lot of turnovers as well.

The only thing wrong with Eisley is he makes more money than he is worth.

I would rather have Eisley then be in the Clippers situation and not even have a PG.

 

[slinslin]

I would much much rather have MArko Jaric than Ho Eisley.

You don't even have to go by his horrible stats. When he comes in the game the Suns usually drop off a lot as a team.

He takes some ill-advised shots? He takes shots and dribbles the ball like he is Allen Iverson and plays poor defense also.

 

[slinslin]

Also we would have 3 backup PGs for JJ.

That roster looks totally messed up unless we could get Kobe in a sign and trade for Marion.

 

[Joe Mama]

Please slin, tell us what you would have done this summer to make the Phoenix Suns better than the roster you listed above. You might as well also tell us your pre and post Tom Gugliotta trade moves. Please try to be somewhat realistic.

Joe Mama

 

[George O'Brien]

Re: Re: IF the "best case" happened

Originally posted by SirChaz
I just don't agree with this. Have you even watched the games or are you just going off stats?

Eisley is a veteran point guard. He does things that don't show up on the stat line. He may make some turnovers and take ill-advised shots at times but I think he had prevented a lot of turnovers as well.

The only thing wrong with Eisley is he makes more money than he is worth.

I would rather have Eisley then be in the Clippers situation and not even have a PG.

After today, we need to simply accept Eisley and be done with it. He is not going anywhere for at least one more season.

Howard is getting better and may get all the way up to average by next season.

slinslin

The rest?
- Cabarkapa still needs to prove himself and doesn't look like he will be a real contributor next season already.
- Lampe doesn't get playing time to even evaluate.
- Vujanic is a rookie PG probably won't be better than Barbosa this season.
- Jacobsen is a bust.
- Eisley hurts the team more than he helps.
- McDyess could help a lot but you can't rely on him being healthy.

I am ready to "demote" Carbakapa to project status along with Lampe. I think they will both be very good someday, but not soon.

Vujanic is more likely to be a Dwyane Wade type SG than a real PG. With the way JJ is developing as a ball handler, this may work out fine and ensure that JJ gets his touches.

McDyess is like every other guy who has been injured. I'm not sure he is extremely likely to be injured, but I would not give him a long term contract either. After trading the other draft pick, I am even more convinced the Suns are planning on re-signing him.

Casey is far from a "bust". He has played well at times and his productivity is not out of line for a second year guy taken in the #20's. There were some other picks that would have been better, but there were a good number of players taken ahead of him that have done zilch.

Want an example? How about Caron Butler.

Jacobsen's stats this season are: 6.1 ppg 43.1% from the field, 42.1% beyond the acr, 2.4 rpg, and 1.2 assists per game in 22.2 minutes. Casey has been getting good reviews for his overall defensive play.

Butler's stats this season are: 7.4 ppg 33.8% from the field, 9.5% beyond the arc, 3.8 rpg, 1.7 assists per game in 28.9 minutes. Butler was the #10 pick in the draft.

If it is premature to decide that Butler is bust, then it iis unreasonable to dismiss Jacobsen just yet.

 

[slinslin]

Because they could have used the picks as valueable bait to make sign and trades happen or make the Bobcats take Jahidi or even Eisley.

With all those picks you could have been pretty sure that you will be able to dump at least one player on the Bobcats.

Maybe we could still use Eisley in a small sign and trade before signing Kobe.

I just know that if the Suns don't make something happen in the offseason after this horrible season, I'll probably become a JJ and Amare fan first and Suns second.

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by slinslin
Because they could have used the picks as valueable bait to make sign and trades happen or make the Bobcats take Jahidi or even Eisley.

With all those picks you could have been pretty sure that you will be able to dump at least one player on the Bobcats.

Maybe we could still use Eisley in a small sign and trade before signing Kobe.

I just know that if the Suns don't make something happen in the offseason after this horrible season, I'll probably become a JJ and Amare fan first and Suns second.

It won't mean much, but the Suns have freed up about $1 million in cap space by not having the second pick.

The best bet for moving White remains giving the Bobcats $3 million to take White. With only a one year contract, he is more attractive than most of the other centers they will be offered. I was hoping that the Suns would not have to throw in a pick, but now I'm not sure they can other than giving away the Cleveland pick.

 

[scotsman13]

Originally posted by slinslin
Bobcats take White, Cavs pick and cash.

Phoenix Suns might have ~15M$ cash to spend this offseason.

So if they can sign Kobe they still need to sign Vujanic and hopefully they could get McDyess back very cheap.

Win the lottery and have the #1 pick.

That still leaves a lot to be desired.

Voshkul
Amare
Marion
Kobe
JJ/Barbosa

+lottery pick

The rest?
- Cabarkapa still needs to prove himself and doesn't look like he will be a real contributor next season already.
- Lampe doesn't get playing time to even evaluate.
- Vujanic is a rookie PG probably won't be better than Barbosa this season.
- Jacobsen is a bust.
- Eisley hurts the team more than he helps.
- McDyess could help a lot but you can't rely on him being healthy.


Best case again would be to sign and trade for Kobe somehow either using Marion or JJ which is ridiculous thought because the Lakers would definately not take Eisley with JJ's small contract.

We need Kobe but we also need 2-3 capable players. We have no depth in case of injury that we can rely on.

i am sorry slin, i dont think that we need 2 or 3 players and i know we dont need kobe. what this team needs is time. as the youngest team in the nba, we need time for these players to learn the game and learn to play together we have enough skilled players already (we need more depth at center). we arent going to be winning the championship next year or the year after. but after that we will start to make our mark in the playoffs and start being a force.

 

[Chaplin]

We always need "time". Every young team needs "time". The Bulls have needed time for years, and they certainly aren't getting any better.

Name one really young team that KEPT ITS CORE intact for more than a few years and won a championship. I don't think there is any. Even the Lakers and Celtics of the 80s can't claim that. The Celtics built their team using ingenious trades, and the Lakers brought Kareem in after he was already established.

 

[Chaz]

Originally posted by Chaplin

Name one really young team that KEPT ITS CORE intact for more than a few years and won a championship.

Bulls, Pistons, Rockets......

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by SirChaz
Bulls, Pistons, Rockets......

Definitely not the Rockets, who traded for Clyde Drexler (or signed him as a FA, I don't remember). The Bulls teams were totally different between the two sets of championships.

 

[slinslin]

The Suns need Kobe.

Every team with a chance to sign a young not even in his prime top5 player who also happens to be one of the biggest draws and most exciting players needs that guy.

If the Suns could manage to sign and trade Marion and Jacobsen for Kobe that would be wonderful because we would still have like 14 or 15M$ capspace to sign guys like Okur, Korver and resign McDyess and sign Vujanic.


Here is a dream scenario

A very positive cap projection for the Suns might be 10M$ avialable right now. Before it was ~8M$ and now we dumped a first round pick that was projected like 1.5M$ or so.

If we dump White on the Bobcats that would be another 6M$ leaving us at ~16M$.

Now if Kobe wants to leave the Suns could offer the max and the Lakers might be inclined to do a sign and trade of Kobe for Marion/Jacobsen (best case of course would also include Eisley).
Marion and Jacobsen for Kobe would probably cost 2M$ of our capspace leaving us at 14M$.

Sign Vujanic to a contract starting at ~2M$. Sign Mehmet Okur to a contract starting ~8M$ (not sure what the magical number is that Detroit can't match, if not substitute Dampier or Camby) use the rest to sign Kyle Korver(or maybe Wes Person) and resign McDyess (Would also like to save a little more on Vujanic and Okur and sign Swift at slightly more than the MLE instead.

Sign our first round pick, BPA. Lets say Josh Smith.

Okur/Voshkul/Lampe(/McDyess)
Amare/McDyess(/Cabarkapa/Lampe)
JJ/Cabarkapa(/Smith)
Kobe/Smith/Korver(/JJ)
Barbosa/Vujanic(/JJ)
IR:Eisley
or

Okur/Voshkul/Lampe(/Swift)
Amare/Swift(/Cabarkapa/Lampe)
JJ/Cabarkapa(/Smith)
Kobe/Smith(/Vujanic/Barbosa)
Barbosa/Vujanic/Eisley

I like that one with Swift/Eisley instead of McDyess/Korver better I think.

Thinking about what could be in the offseason is definately a lot more exciting right now than watching games or even looking at the draft.

 

[scotsman13]

hold it chap, the first houston championship came before clyde ever came to the rockets. and as far as building off this young core that doesnt mean that we wont bring in new players, it just means that we are going to be building off the players we have already.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by scotsman13
hold it chap, the first houston championship came before clyde ever came to the rockets. and as far as building off this young core that doesnt mean that we wont bring in new players, it just means that we are going to be building off the players we have already.

The problem is, we have nobody except maybe Amare with the potential of getting a lot better. The rest of the team may play themselves into solid role players, JJ has still not converted me quite yet, and Marion, well, Marion isn't the same player anymore.

This isn't a roster that will win a championship next year or in 10 years. Doesn't matter.

 

[Chaz]

Originally posted by Chaplin
Definitely not the Rockets, who traded for Clyde Drexler (or signed him as a FA, I don't remember). The Bulls teams were totally different between the two sets of championships.

But the Bulls had young players in Jordan, Pippen, and Grant. They got smacked down quite a bit and eventully won a championship. Granted thay had MJ but that is hindsight now.


The Rockets were a mid tier team, they added Cassell and Horry to the core and won the championship.


The Piston were built up from young players. I don't remember them getting a big FA that put them over the top. (Granted they were a little before I was paying close attention to basketball)

 

[scotsman13]

Originally posted by slinslin
The Suns need Kobe.

Every team with a chance to sign a young not even in his prime top5 player who also happens to be one of the biggest draws and most exciting players needs that guy.

If the Suns could manage to sign and trade Marion and Jacobsen for Kobe that would be wonderful because we would still have like 14 or 15M$ capspace to sign guys like Okur, Korver and resign McDyess and sign Vujanic.


Here is a dream scenario

A very positive cap projection for the Suns might be 10M$ avialable right now. Before it was ~8M$ and now we dumped a first round pick that was projected like 1.5M$ or so.

If we dump White on the Bobcats that would be another 6M$ leaving us at ~16M$.

Now if Kobe wants to leave the Suns could offer the max and the Lakers might be inclined to do a sign and trade of Kobe for Marion/Jacobsen (best case of course would also include Eisley).
Marion and Jacobsen for Kobe would probably cost 2M$ of our capspace leaving us at 14M$.

Sign Vujanic to a contract starting at ~2M$. Sign Mehmet Okur to a contract starting ~8M$ (not sure what the magical number is that Detroit can't match, if not substitute Dampier or Camby) use the rest to sign Kyle Korver(or maybe Wes Person) and resign McDyess (Would also like to save a little more on Vujanic and Okur and sign Swift at slightly more than the MLE instead.

Sign our first round pick, BPA. Lets say Josh Smith.

Okur/Voshkul/Lampe(/McDyess)
Amare/McDyess(/Cabarkapa/Lampe)
JJ/Cabarkapa(/Smith)
Kobe/Smith/Korver(/JJ)
Barbosa/Vujanic(/JJ)
IR:Eisley
or

Okur/Voshkul/Lampe(/Swift)
Amare/Swift(/Cabarkapa/Lampe)
JJ/Cabarkapa(/Smith)
Kobe/Smith(/Vujanic/Barbosa)
Barbosa/Vujanic/Eisley

I like that one with Swift/Eisley instead of McDyess/Korver better I think.

Thinking about what could be in the offseason is definately a lot more exciting right now than watching games or even looking at the draft.

and here is the nightmare scenario.

we trade marion and casey for kobe and during the summer kobes trail goes for 8 weeks and finally they come back with a conviction on him. so you have just lost the best rebounder on your team in marion, best outside shooter in casey with nothing in return. and at that point it is to late find any other player to bring in to fill those missing spots.

or here is another nightmare kobe comes in and clashs with jj and amare. the team falls apart and is back in the lottery and cant even find that they cant trade kobe. after all who wants a cancer that rips apart teams.

 

[Joe Mama]

Let's get real slin. Unless he just catches on fire for the rest of the season there is no way in hell the LA Lakers are going to do a sign in trade that gives them Shawn Marion and his contract. Casey Jacobsen certainly isn't going to sweeten the deal enough. And then you are thinking that it would be nicer if they took Howard Eiseley as well? Ridiculous

Joe Mama

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Originally posted by SirChaz
But the Bulls had young players in Jordan, Pippen, and Grant. They got smacked down quite a bit and eventully won a championship. Granted thay had MJ but that is hindsight now.


The Rockets were a mid tier team, they added Cassell and Horry to the core and won the championship.


The Piston were built up from young players. I don't remember them getting a big FA that put them over the top. (Granted they were a little before I was paying close attention to basketball)

Your argument begs the question, why not keep a core of Marbury, Marion, and Stoudemire, keep Bo, and see what a whole year of them would produce?

 

[KingLouieLouie]

Originally posted by SirChaz

The Piston were built up from young players. I don't remember them getting a big FA that put them over the top. (Granted they were a little before I was paying close attention to basketball)

The Pistons began building the foundation when they drafted Isiah in '81 and w/in a couple of years they acquired
Vinnie Johnson and Laimbeer in separate trades....Then, they struck gold when they drafted Dumars, Rodman, and Salley circa '85 & '86.....

They then acquired the likes of Rick Mahorn, James Edwards, and Mark Aguirre through other trades that eventually lead them to those back-2-back championships....

Thats the idea formula to assemble a team right there and having Chuck Daily as their headcoach didnt hurt whatsoever...

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Originally posted by KingLouieLouie
The Pistons began building the foundation when they drafted Isiah in '81 and w/in a couple of years they acquired
Vinnie Johnson and Laimbeer in separate trades....Then, they struck gold when they drafted Dumars, Rodman, and Salley circa '85 & '86.....

They then acquired the likes of Rick Mahorn, James Edwards, and Mark Aguirre through other trades that eventually lead them to those back-2-back championships....

Thats the idea formula to assemble a team right there and having Chuck Daily as their headcoach didnt hurt whatsoever...

It is very interesting, in the past, the idea seemed to be to build a base, and then tweak the roster. Now, if it doesn't work, the plans seems to be to nuke the roster, and start all over again. if the new plan doesn't work right away, same thing....

 

[Chaz]

Originally posted by ASUCHRIS
Your argument begs the question, why not keep a core of Marbury, Marion, and Stoudemire, keep Bo, and see what a whole year of them would produce?

I don't have that answer.

The best I can come up with is the desire to dump Hardaway. That and I don't feel Marbury and Stoudemire ever really played well together. Amare wants to set up in the paint and Marbury want to drive to the paint. Not enought room for both in that senario.


Maybe they would have been better off keeping Steph. I guess we'll never really know for sure.

 

[SweetD]

Originally posted by Chaplin

Name one really young team that KEPT ITS CORE intact for more than a few years and won a championship. I don't think there is any. Even the Lakers and Celtics of the 80s can't claim that. The Celtics built their team using ingenious trades, and the Lakers brought Kareem in after he was already established.

Spurs all their picks all their Vets. only one or two role players.

 

[Chaz]

Originally posted by KingLouieLouie
The Pistons began building the foundation when they drafted Isiah in '81 and w/in a couple of years they acquired
Vinnie Johnson and Laimbeer in separate trades....Then, they struck gold when they drafted Dumars, Rodman, and Salley circa '85 & '86.....

They then acquired the likes of Rick Mahorn, James Edwards, and Mark Aguirre through other trades that eventually lead them to those back-2-back championships....

Thats the idea formula to assemble a team right there and having Chuck Daily as their headcoach didnt hurt whatsoever...

Thanks for the details.

Seems to me they spent 10 years building that team. Our best player (potentialy) is a second year player right now.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Originally posted by SirChaz
I don't have that answer.

The best I can come up with is the desire to dump Hardaway. That and I don't feel Marbury and Stoudemire ever really played well together. Amare wants to set up in the paint and Marbury want to drive to the paint. Not enought room for both in that senario.


Maybe they would have been better off keeping Steph. I guess we'll never really know for sure.

This sucks so bad, I was really looking forward to this year. I thought we had a core that would be successful for the next 5-10 years. Reality bites.