IF the Cardinals go OL in the 1st Rd.

[D-Dogg]

Maybe not this year, but you shouldn't be drafting in the first round for current need. In 2016 Massie is going to be a free agent. We might need an OT then.

If massie is worth paying for, we'll pay for him. You shouldn't be drafting in the first round for fear a guy who will be a free agent might cost some money. You draft in the first round to make your team instantly better.

You draft in the later rounds to assuage fear.

 

[Stout]

If massie is worth paying for, we'll pay for him. You shouldn't be drafting in the first round for fear a guy who will be a free agent might cost some money. You draft in the first round to make your team instantly better.

You draft in the later rounds to assuage fear.

I'm less confident that this is the case after losing Dumpster Dan.

 

[kerouac9]

If massie is worth paying for, we'll pay for him. You shouldn't be drafting in the first round for fear a guy who will be a free agent might cost some money. You draft in the first round to make your team instantly better.

You draft in the later rounds to assuage fear.

You don't get a lot of guys who can "make your team instantly better" in the 20-32 picks in the first round. How much instantly better did Deone Bucannon make us? Michael Floyd?

Rookie year you let him compete for a starting job, or you start him at guard if some other guy falls flat on his face. 2nd year you may feel comfortable starting him at one of the tackle positions, and then you save yourself a ton of money on re-signing a potential free agent.

 

[D-Dogg]

You don't get a lot of guys who can "make your team instantly better" in the 20-32 picks in the first round. How much instantly better did Deone Bucannon make us? Michael Floyd?

Rookie year you let him compete for a starting job, or you start him at guard if some other guy falls flat on his face. 2nd year you may feel comfortable starting him at one of the tackle positions, and then you save yourself a ton of money on re-signing a potential free agent.

Did we not get better with Buc? Did we not get better with Floyd?
Both guys were "need" picks who were valuable on the field day one..and both produced right away. WR is a hard one to gauge since you usually need 3 years to suss it out.

However, drafting an OT right now in the first round means you are drafting a backup for the current season, who probably won't see a snap, and might never see a snap at all because the guy in front of him has talent and will likely be resigned as or before he hits FA (if they deem him worth it). If we like it, we tend to put a ring on it, ya know?


Dude, back off and think. You are smart. I get it, you want to get into a little board smack about who/what/when/where...but just ask yourself, if we draft an OT in the FIRST ROUND, how would you feel about that? If we draft a pass rusher, or a bonafide center, or a solid CB, or a beast RB, how do you feel about that? The end. No more comments necessary, thanks.

 

[D-Dogg]

I'm less confident that this is the case after losing Dumpster Dan.

Dime a dozen, unfortunately, is the mentality. I don't disagree with that sentiment from the front office, but I also invest my heart and soul in every shed block that man makes on the field. #lovedefense

 

[Stout]

Dime a dozen, unfortunately, is the mentality. I don't disagree with that sentiment from the front office, but I also invest my heart and soul in every shed block that man makes on the field. #lovedefense

That's what concerns me, because, as the league has shown, GOOD NTs are not a dime a dozen. Huge, huge mistake.

 

[Chopper0080]

So, position by position...

RB: Deep RB class, and a devalued position around the league. With Ellington on the roster, how many carries do we really see him getting? However, you might have a shot at the best player in a good class if you use your #1 pick here. (Todd Gurley)

WR: Deep WR class, and a position that is becoming saturated with young talent. Floyd has not been the player they hoped he would be so far, Fitz is declining, and bottom of the first round WRs are cheap. Should be able to get a good player, but will be tough to see a 2015 impact with Fitz, Floyd, and Brown on roster. (Jaleen Strong, Devante Adams)

OT: Probably looking at a RT which historically is a spot you can fill later. Massie is coming into a contract year so this would be a future pick. I think you take a RT in the first round if you believe Massie has hit his ceiling, and you want more from the position. (TJ Clemmings)

C: The only reason to take a first round C is if you believe the player can be physically a difference maker at point of attack. That is the main ability that differentiates between top C's and average ones. (Cameron Erving)

NT: A position that this team is not putting a priority on. Would be drafted to replace Dan Williams who got paid in free agency. If you are looking for a player, I think you are looking for a guy who can play NT and generate a pass rush on sub packages. (Malcolm Brown)

OLB: A tough position to draft for because it is normally very different from what the prospect did in college. Normally you are looking for a guy to brings high pass rush potential, and probably will have little impact year one. Cards obviously value the ability to physically hold up which makes Owa Odighizuwa and Preston Smith real options.

ILB: A bit of a devalued position, but a player who gets a ton of snaps. Plus athleticism or technique can lead to immediate impact in terms of player time and snaps. Weatherspoon is on a one year deal, and Washington may be back which might make the team look elsewhere.

CB: A premium position with all of the multi WR sets in the NFL. The team is also lacking in depth this year with both Powers and Bethel (I believe) as FAs next year. Nice options could be available in terms of length and man coverage ability. (Marcus Peters/Byron Jones)


***

My point is there are arguements in terms of most positions. One thing to consider is that very few players are going to have an immediate impact due to our roster being pretty solid. RB, C, ILB are probably the only spots that a player drafted in the first round would have a shot at starting right away. Maybe NT. The rest will all have specific roles or are being drafted for future considerations which is fine.

 

[Chopper0080]

That's what concerns me, because, as the league has shown, GOOD NTs are not a dime a dozen. Huge, huge mistake.

Please provide examples because I think you are overstating this quite a bit.

 

[kerouac9]

Did we not get better with Buc? Did we not get better with Floyd?
Both guys were "need" picks who were valuable on the field day one..and both produced right away. WR is a hard one to gauge since you usually need 3 years to suss it out.

However, drafting an OT right now in the first round means you are drafting a backup for the current season, who probably won't see a snap, and might never see a snap at all because the guy in front of him has talent and will likely be resigned as or before he hits FA (if they deem him worth it). If we like it, we tend to put a ring on it, ya know?


Dude, back off and think. You are smart. I get it, you want to get into a little board smack about who/what/when/where...but just ask yourself, if we draft an OT in the FIRST ROUND, how would you feel about that? If we draft a pass rusher, or a bonafide center, or a solid CB, or a beast RB, how do you feel about that? The end. No more comments necessary, thanks.

Did we get "instantly" better with Bucannon or Floyd? No. Bucannon was an okay linebacker (Better than Kevin Minter, but not as good as the rookie seasons of Dansby or Washington) as a rookie. Bucannon also struggled covering tight ends, which was maybe one of the reasons we drafted him in the first place. Floyd started 3 games his rookie season, barely played half the offensive snaps, went over 50 receiving yards twice, and didn't score his second touchdown of the season until Week 17.

It seems you were so worked up that you didn't actually read my post. The worst-case scenario is that a 1st round OT is a backup (just like our 1st round SS was slated to be a backup when we drafted him). A possible scenario is that he competes in camp and beats out either Massie or Cooper. A likely scenario is that he competes in camp, plays with the second team for the first quarter to half of the season, then comes in as an injury substitute at four OL positions during the year. Not a bad result for a late-first round pick.

As for whether the Cards extend draft picks before they hit free agent, of the players drafted from 2008 - 2012, three of 37 draft picks were extended before the hit free agency (Campbell, Washington, Peterson), and two more were allowed to test the free agent market and came back (Early Doucet and Rashad Johnson).

The entire 2011 draft class after Peterson is off the team.

 

[BW52]

So, position by position...

RB: Deep RB class, and a devalued position around the league. With Ellington on the roster, how many carries do we really see him getting? However, you might have a shot at the best player in a good class if you use your #1 pick here. (Todd Gurley)

WR: Deep WR class, and a position that is becoming saturated with young talent. Floyd has not been the player they hoped he would be so far, Fitz is declining, and bottom of the first round WRs are cheap. Should be able to get a good player, but will be tough to see a 2015 impact with Fitz, Floyd, and Brown on roster. (Jaleen Strong, Devante Adams)

OT: Probably looking at a RT which historically is a spot you can fill later. Massie is coming into a contract year so this would be a future pick. I think you take a RT in the first round if you believe Massie has hit his ceiling, and you want more from the position. (TJ Clemmings)

C: The only reason to take a first round C is if you believe the player can be physically a difference maker at point of attack. That is the main ability that differentiates between top C's and average ones. (Cameron Erving)

NT: A position that this team is not putting a priority on. Would be drafted to replace Dan Williams who got paid in free agency. If you are looking for a player, I think you are looking for a guy who can play NT and generate a pass rush on sub packages. (Malcolm Brown)

OLB: A tough position to draft for because it is normally very different from what the prospect did in college. Normally you are looking for a guy to brings high pass rush potential, and probably will have little impact year one. Cards obviously value the ability to physically hold up which makes Owa Odighizuwa and Preston Smith real options.

ILB: A bit of a devalued position, but a player who gets a ton of snaps. Plus athleticism or technique can lead to immediate impact in terms of player time and snaps. Weatherspoon is on a one year deal, and Washington may be back which might make the team look elsewhere.

CB: A premium position with all of the multi WR sets in the NFL. The team is also lacking in depth this year with both Powers and Bethel (I believe) as FAs next year. Nice options could be available in terms of length and man coverage ability. (Marcus Peters/Byron Jones)


***

My point is there are arguements in terms of most positions. One thing to consider is that very few players are going to have an immediate impact due to our roster being pretty solid. RB, C, ILB are probably the only spots that a player drafted in the first round would have a shot at starting right away. Maybe NT. The rest will all have specific roles or are being drafted for future considerations which is fine.

IMHO the 2 spots in which a rookie could come in a start right now are CB or NT.Myself I don`t feel real comfortable with Powers starting.Isn`t he better at slot CB and Bethel is raw at CB.As for NT the Cards have Ta`Amu and Corey Peters(who can play DE or DT) so a Goldman,Phillips,Malcom Brown (who you mentioned) could be a factor immediately.

 

[D-Dogg]

Did we get "instantly" better with Bucannon or Floyd?

Yes, we did.

To argue otherwise is silly.

Could we have gotten even better with other picks in hindsight? Sure. But they were not bench guys brought in on a deep rotation or get snaps in practice to start in a year or so kind of talents. They came in, and immediately contributed. Which is what you want from a first rounder. I can groom a 3rd round OT. If I take a lineman in the first round, I expect him to contribute heavily (looking at you, Coop).

 

[D-Dogg]

IMHO the 2 spots in which a rookie could come in a start right now are CB or NT.Myself I don`t feel real comfortable with Powers starting.Isn`t he better at slot CB and Bethel is raw at CB.As for NT the Cards have Ta`Amu and Corey Peters(who can play DE or DT) so a Goldman,Phillips,Malcom Brown (who you mentioned) could be a factor immediately.

So my thought is that if we are going to trade up, it might be for a CB. I think the team is thinking in this same mindset...one of the top CB would be an instant starter for the team.

I want a pass rusher in the worst way, so if we trade up I hope it nets us that, but I would not be shocked at all to see us move up and take a CB.

 

[juza76]

does anyone like grady jarrett?
to me he looks amazing,he is just 6'1' but he is so strong and has an excellent burst for a guy of his size
is outstanding how he can penetrate in to the backfield

 

[stretchthefield]

I agree that Grady Jarrett would be a great fit for us, with that said I wouldn't pick him until the 3rd round.

 

[kerouac9]

Yes, we did.

To argue otherwise is silly.

Could we have gotten even better with other picks in hindsight? Sure. But they were not bench guys brought in on a deep rotation or get snaps in practice to start in a year or so kind of talents. They came in, and immediately contributed. Which is what you want from a first rounder. I can groom a 3rd round OT. If I take a lineman in the first round, I expect him to contribute heavily (looking at you, Coop).

I challenge you to quantify the instant impact of either Floyd or Bucannon.

 

[D-Dogg]

I challenge you to quantify the instant impact of either Floyd or Bucannon.

Uhm, they played and contributed unlike your theoretical offensive tackle who might play in the following season and is taken because we might not pick up a free agent contract. Despite that, rookie WR rarely light the world on fire so that production you bemoan is actually OK. And as for Buc, scroll to safety in the link: http://www.nfl.com/photoessays/0ap3000000458758

Regardless, your baseline point I vehemently disagree with... You don't draft for fear of the following seasons FA in the first round. Not ever. Not ever ever. The only reason you draft future need is if you have a massive stud fall to you and you can afford to burn that pick, see Aaron Rodgers. But that move was not made out of fear, not in the least.

Drafting OT over C in the first round of this draft because Massie might go is pure silliness. When did we draft Massie again?

 

[kerouac9]

Uhm, they played and contributed unlike your theoretical offensive tackle who might play in the following season and is taken because we might not pick up a free agent contract. Despite that, rookie WR rarely light the world on fire so that production you bemoan is actually OK. And as for Buc, scroll to safety in the link: http://www.nfl.com/photoessays/0ap3000000458758

Regardless, your baseline point I vehemently disagree with... You don't draft for fear of the following seasons FA in the first round. Not ever. Not ever ever. The only reason you draft future need is if you have a massive stud fall to you and you can afford to burn that pick, see Aaron Rodgers. But that move was not made out of fear, not in the least.

Drafting OT over C in the first round of this draft because Massie might go is pure silliness. When did we draft Massie again?

Do you actually read your links, or just post them blindly. Here's what the author has to say about Bucannon:

Bucannon is an in-the-box type of safety who makes a lot of tackles (81) and is very aggressive. He's more of a run-stopper than he is a space player, but in the type of defense the Cardinals played in 2014, that was fine. Bucannon might not be a perennial Pro Bowler, but he'll start and play well for a number of years.

I like Bucannon, but this isn't an instant impact player. More like a solid contributor.

I'm fine drafting a C in the first round; I actually have a ton of faith in the front office to make a good decision no matter what I think.

And good teams draft players in the first round that they don't anticipate playing 60% of the snaps or more all the time. New England did it last year. Marcus Smith played fewer than 6% of the snaps last season for the Eagles because they had Trent Cole in front of him--who just departed.

 

[Chopper0080]

IMHO the 2 spots in which a rookie could come in a start right now are CB or NT.Myself I don`t feel real comfortable with Powers starting.Isn`t he better at slot CB and Bethel is raw at CB.As for NT the Cards have Ta`Amu and Corey Peters(who can play DE or DT) so a Goldman,Phillips,Malcom Brown (who you mentioned) could be a factor immediately.

I find it tough to believe a rookie will come in and beat Powers out for a starting spot, especially since Arians/Bowles said Powers played the best at cornerback last year. Also, this team is going to give Bethel every chance to show he can play CB. It could happen, but it probably won't happen early.

 

[juza76]

I find it tough to believe a rookie will come in and beat Powers out for a starting spot, especially since Arians/Bowles said Powers played the best at cornerback last year. Also, this team is going to give Bethel every chance to show he can play CB. It could happen, but it probably won't happen early.

at now outside of special team plays did show almost nothing
its a bet ,more then for a rookie drafted in early round

 

[WildBB]

I find it tough to believe a rookie will come in and beat Powers out for a starting spot, especially since Arians/Bowles said Powers played the best at cornerback last year. Also, this team is going to give Bethel every chance to show he can play CB. It could happen, but it probably won't happen early.

I'd agree. Look for a 3-5 Rd. CB. There are many, you should be able to get a future serviceable #2 or slot (which is not so much a priority).

 

[Chopper0080]

Do you actually read your links, or just post them blindly. Here's what the author has to say about Bucannon:



I like Bucannon, but this isn't an instant impact player. More like a solid contributor.

I'm fine drafting a C in the first round; I actually have a ton of faith in the front office to make a good decision no matter what I think.

And good teams draft players in the first round that they don't anticipate playing 60% of the snaps or more all the time. New England did it last year. Marcus Smith played fewer than 6% of the snaps last season for the Eagles because they had Trent Cole in front of him--who just departed.

This is where I am at. Mid to late first round picks are relatively cheap now, that you really just need to get a guy who has long term starter potential. More than hitting on a pro bowler, we just need a guy who is going to play snaps and stick around. Bucannon is a good example of that. He plays all three downs, and has the size and work ethic to stick. Not a great pick, but him and the pick they added is pretty good for the first round. If Cooper gets it together, he is another potential 10 year guy though you would like a bit more from a top 10 pick.

There are worse things than coming out of a draft with Cameron Erving, Eric Kendricks, or TJ Clemmings. Hell, if you are going to use him, the cost alone makes Todd Gurley a solid value pick if you have the right offensive line. CBs, OLBs, WRs are nice, but they can be very hit or miss. I have no problem with the Cardinals taking a less risky guy if they are not comfortable with the CBs or edge rushers available. Okafor shows that you can develop those types of players.

 

[Stout]

Please provide examples because I think you are overstating this quite a bit.

LOL How about the Arizona Cardinals? Our run defenses used to get absolutely shredded when we didn't have a good NT. Since you seem to think good NTs are a dime a dozen, why didn't we get one back then?

*Mike Drop*

 

[WildBB]

This is where I am at. Mid to late first round picks are relatively cheap now, that you really just need to get a guy who has long term starter potential. More than hitting on a pro bowler, we just need a guy who is going to play snaps and stick around. Bucannon is a good example of that. He plays all three downs, and has the size and work ethic to stick. Not a great pick, but him and the pick they added is pretty good for the first round. If Cooper gets it together, he is another potential 10 year guy though you would like a bit more from a top 10 pick.

There are worse things than coming out of a draft with Cameron Erving, Eric Kendricks, or TJ Clemmings. Hell, if you are going to use him, the cost alone makes Todd Gurley a solid value pick if you have the right offensive line. CBs, OLBs, WRs are nice, but they can be very hit or miss. I have no problem with the Cardinals taking a less risky guy if they are not comfortable with the CBs or edge rushers available. Okafor shows that you can develop those types of players.

Gurley would be a no brainer if cleared. He tests on Friday. But you would wonder why teams passed on him then.

It's a scarier proposition for Gordon, just because he's too much like AE, imo. But that might be a selling point for the FO. Then other times they say they want speed and power and Gurley is the difference maker back there.
eports

 

[D-Dogg]

Do you actually read your links, or just post them blindly. Here's what the author has to say about Bucannon:


I like Bucannon, but this isn't an instant impact player. More like a solid contributor.

I read it. Start and play well for a number of years = instantly makes the team better. Not sure how you don't see that. A solid contributor instantly makes the team better. Doesnt' mean they are a huge impact player or a pro-bowler, but when you draft a player and that player is a starter and plays well, you see the results...well, instantly.

It didn't say "rotational player that will split snaps for a career but might blossom into a starter down the road."

 

[D-Dogg]

And to ensure your semantics argument is fundamentally sound, you need to be using my words, not yours.

Could we have gotten even better with other picks in hindsight? Sure. But they were not bench guys brought in on a deep rotation or get snaps in practice to start in a year or so kind of talents. They came in, and immediately contributed. Which is what you want from a first rounder. I can groom a 3rd round OT. If I take a lineman in the first round, I expect him to contribute heavily (looking at you, Coop).

Sounds pretty much exactly how Buc was described by the article..oh, and by you as well.

If you are going to argue against my position, you should not try to restate it in a manner that fits your own definition.