If the draft was today, I would still take Fitzgerald over Roy Williams.

[Lomax to Green 84]

I get sick of hearing that Fitzgerald has a ceiling. That he is polished and doesn't have great upside. That kid catches everything. He caught everything when he was at Pitt and he is doing it with the Cardinals. It is so crazy to downgrade a kid because he is polished coming out of college. This is a 20 year old kid who just flat out gets it and even better has the eye of a rabid dog underneath that glowing smile. Fitzgerald kind of reminds me of Tiger Woods when Tiger was kicking butt. Gives a great interview, smiles, says all the right things, but when it comes to competition he is ready to tear your head off and lives for getting better and for winning.

As for Roy Williams, he is a great talent but he has a little bit of Rob Moore in him (nagging injuries). Its already starting with the little day to day injuries that he had at Texas. I give the Lions credit. He is a great, great talent but the injuries are an issue.

Both have things that can't be taught. Williams has great "measurables", but Fitzgerald has those intangibles physical qualities that can't be measured with a stopwatch or bench press-(the strongest hands of any reciever ever, uncanny, tremendous body control, great Charles Barkley type ability to time his jump and get to the ball at its highest point).

I'd still take Fitz over Williams in a heartbeat.

 

[spanky1]

Not even close......by the end of the year, Williams' stats will not compare with Fitz's.

 

[WildBB]

I'd still take Fitz over Williams in a heartbeat.

I concure.

 

[CaptTurbo]

Hard to not take a guy that will probably be OROY.

 

[CardinalLaw]

I agree. Fitz is everything I imagined he would be. Just imagine if they accually threw it to him 10 times a game. He should be R.O.W. this week. Clayton and Williams only had 60 yards apeice. BigBen didn't play.

 

[Russ Smith]

Fitz is good, really good, but Roy now has played in essence 4 1/2 NFL games and has 24 catches, 362 yards and 5 TD's. he's about 40% of the Detroit offense, missed last week they score 10 against a horrible Packer defense and he plays yesterday and they put 28 up on the Giants. If you watched NFL primetime Tom Jackson said that if you watch Detroit they're a completely different team with Roy Williams, they have no weapons when he's out.

Do I really need to point out that the same "nagging injury" that cost Roy 1 1/2 games cost Fitz games in the preseason and would have cost him those same games if it had happened now? Ankle sprains are something you have can't just ignore, Williams actually wanted to play last week but Mariucci decided right at game time to not play him, he was dressed, was introduced, but Mooch decided to rest him.

Fitz is having a great year too but he's played about 1 1/2 more games and has two more catches for 9 more yards and 3 less TD's, right now Roy has clearly had the bigger impact.

I think they're both going to be terrific players but barring injury Roy's speed and strength make him damn near impossible to cover.

 

[pete]

We can only hope that Boldin's return will open it up for Fitz. Can't cover everyone.

 

[kerouac9]

I get sick of hearing that Fitzgerald has a ceiling. That he is polished and doesn't have great upside. That kid catches everything. He caught everything when he was at Pitt and he is doing it with the Cardinals. It is so crazy to downgrade a kid because he is polished coming out of college. This is a 20 year old kid who just flat out gets it and even better has the eye of a rabid dog underneath that glowing smile. Fitzgerald kind of reminds me of Tiger Woods when Tiger was kicking butt. Gives a great interview, smiles, says all the right things, but when it comes to competition he is ready to tear your head off and lives for getting better and for winning.

As for Roy Williams, he is a great talent but he has a little bit of Rob Moore in him (nagging injuries). Its already starting with the little day to day injuries that he had at Texas. I give the Lions credit. He is a great, great talent but the injuries are an issue.

Both have things that can't be taught. Williams has great "measurables", but Fitzgerald has those intangibles physical qualities that can't be measured with a stopwatch or bench press-(the strongest hands of any reciever ever, uncanny, tremendous body control, great Charles Barkley type ability to time his jump and get to the ball at its highest point).

I'd still take Fitz over Williams in a heartbeat.

The Lions are 4-2 and one game out of first place in their division. Roy Williams is the playmaker and catalyst of their offense. Not only does he catch everything thrown at him, but he also can get behind the safeties, has a special relationship with his quarterback, and defenses must account for him on every play.

The Cardinals are 2-4. Larry Fitzgerald hasn't done much to separate himself from the rest of the "nobodys" in the WR corps. His play isn't a great contrast to that of Nathan Poole. He doesn't get behind the safeties, he doesn't get YAC yards, and he's not a candidate for OROY. I almost chuckled when the annoucers for yesterday's game referred to Fitz as "the Cards' stud rookie WR". What has he done to deserve the label "stud"?

Fitz's and Williams's stat lines were virtually identicial yesterday, but Williams only played like a half. Speaks for itself.

 

[Lomax to Green 84]

Russ I agree that if Fitzgerald's injury had happened 3 weeks ago he would have missed regular season time. I am just referring to the "reputation" that Roy Williams had at Texas as a guy who was kind of obsessed with his body and wanted everything to always be perfect physically for him to perform at a high level. He had a rep at Texas as kind of a prima donna who had everything you would ever want physically but lacked a bit in the toughness category. Fitzgerald on the other hand had a rep at PITT of being a guy who would gut out nagging injuries.

 

[Russ Smith]

Russ I agree that if Fitzgerald's injury had happened 3 weeks ago he would have missed regular season time. I am just referring to the "reputation" that Roy Williams had at Texas as a guy who was kind of obsessed with his body and wanted everything to always be perfect physically for him to perform at a high level. He had a rep at Texas as kind of a prima donna who had everything you would ever want physically but lacked a bit in the toughness category. Fitzgerald on the other hand had a rep at PITT of being a guy who would gut out nagging injuries.

Sort of. I mentioned this before, Roy was a track star in HS, a really good one people recruited him for track and he was considered a possible olympic level decathlete prospect, he was that good. Roy didn't take weight training for football seriously because he'd always trained for track, explosion, quick burst stuff, and he kept getting hammy injuries. He finally was convinced to do some strength training to help and apparently it's helped. People forget he played virtually his whole junior year with a leg injury.

I know his rep in college, he's one of those guys who looks like he's running 3/4 speed, as he's running 5 yards behind your DB for another TD

They're both very good, Roy is the better athlete, Fitz the more polished WR supposedly, which is why it's so interesting to see Roy turning veteran DB's around with routes(like he did yesterday).

I like Fitz, I think he's going to be very good, I'd have picked Taylor or Ben or Roy before Fitz but I think Fitz is going to be a great player for years to come and he's a good kid.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Fitz sure doesn't look as good as Williams catching passes from Harrington....

Oh wait....Fitz has MCCOWN at Qb. This isn't ceteris paribus here. If I had to choose between Harrington (and his better offensive line as well) or McCown, I take Harrington ANY DAY of the week...

Fitz hasn't had equal Qb play. McCown is the the achilles heel of this offense right now (along with lack of speed at RB)...

 

[pete]

Fitz sure doesn't look as good as Williams catching passes from Harrington....

Oh wait....Fitz has MCCOWN at Qb. This isn't ceteris paribus here. If I had to choose between Harrington (and his better offensive line as well) or McCown, I take Harrington ANY DAY of the week...

Fitz hasn't had equal Qb play. McCown is the the achilles heel of this offense right now (along with lack of speed at RB)...

Yep, that is pretty much the difference and what I said the first time this debate came up. Williams is a much bigger part of Detroit's O and gets more chances than what Fitz is getting in Arizona's. Fitz was all but ignored for 30 minutes in the second half yesterday. Green needs to do something about that!

 

[Russ Smith]

Fitz sure doesn't look as good as Williams catching passes from Harrington....

Oh wait....Fitz has MCCOWN at Qb. This isn't ceteris paribus here. If I had to choose between Harrington (and his better offensive line as well) or McCown, I take Harrington ANY DAY of the week...

Fitz hasn't had equal Qb play. McCown is the the achilles heel of this offense right now (along with lack of speed at RB)...

True but look at Harrington, he has one game this year over 200 yards passing, but 10 td 3 picks sure looks good, half of those TD's being to Roy Williams. I agree he's better than Josh but that whole offense is revolving around Roy Williams which is kind of amazing for a rookie who was supposed to be #2 behind Rogers.

 

[CaptTurbo]

Fitz sure doesn't look as good as Williams catching passes from Harrington....

Oh wait....Fitz has MCCOWN at Qb. This isn't ceteris paribus here. If I had to choose between Harrington (and his better offensive line as well) or McCown, I take Harrington ANY DAY of the week...

Fitz hasn't had equal Qb play. McCown is the the achilles heel of this offense right now (along with lack of speed at RB)...

Krang where have you been hiding? Wife has you busy doing housework?

 

[Lomax to Green 84]

I think we draftniks tend to get so much into numbers and whenever we hear that a guy is "polished" or a "finished product" we immediately downgrade the guy as not having upside potential. Pro Football Weekly actually had a little blurb a few weeks ago that mentioned that Fitzgerald was a lousy route runner and a guy had relied completely on his tremendous leaping ability and hands to outjump and outmuscle college defenders. If that is the case, then Fitzgerald has tremendous upside potential once he learns how to get open through proper route running and not just relying on lob passes that allow him to outjump everyone.

The main point is that Fitzgerald has special physical tools as well and sometimes we miss that because of his polished reputation.

 

[Cheesebeef]

The Lions are 4-2 and one game out of first place in their division. Roy Williams is the playmaker and catalyst of their offense. Not only does he catch everything thrown at him, but he also can get behind the safeties, has a special relationship with his quarterback, and defenses must account for him on every play.

The Cardinals are 2-4. Larry Fitzgerald hasn't done much to separate himself from the rest of the "nobodys" in the WR corps. His play isn't a great contrast to that of Nathan Poole. He doesn't get behind the safeties, he doesn't get YAC yards, and he's not a candidate for OROY. I almost chuckled when the annoucers for yesterday's game referred to Fitz as "the Cards' stud rookie WR". What has he done to deserve the label "stud"?

Fitz's and Williams's stat lines were virtually identicial yesterday, but Williams only played like a half. Speaks for itself.

you don't watch the games do you K9? That is the only way you can possibly say the things above that you say because to say Fitz hasn't distinugihsed hismelf from the other "nobody" receivers is just plain and simple the dumbest thing I have ever read on this board - The guy's ability to go up in the air and catch ANYTHING that is thrown to him - no matter if double covered or not has already made him one of the better WRs in the game. It's not his fault he has a terrible QB throwing the ball to him.

Honestly - you're negativity and holier than thou attitude even bothers me on this subject -- get real.

 

[WildBB]

Fitz sure doesn't look as good as Williams catching passes from Harrington....

Oh wait....Fitz has MCCOWN at Qb. This isn't ceteris paribus here. If I had to choose between Harrington (and his better offensive line as well) or McCown, I take Harrington ANY DAY of the week...

Fitz hasn't had equal Qb play. McCown is the the achilles heel of this offense right now (along with lack of speed at RB)...

OK - but Smith has been servicable. Harrington in his 3rd yr. as a starter is really coming on now. McCown still in basically his 1st. It takes about 3 yrs. for a QB to really start to get all the nuances involved in being successful. I don't know if we or the coaching staff have that kind of patience with McCown. He'll have to show real progress this season.

Fitz has better hands and decent speed. Better body control. Great vision. He's just as good and WILL BE more durable in his career. Bank on that!

 

[ASUCHRIS]

you don't watch the games do you K9? That is the only way you can possibly say the things above that you say because to say Fitz hasn't distinugihsed hismelf from the other "nobody" receivers is just plain and simple the dumbest thing I have ever read on this board - The guy's ability to go up in the air and catch ANYTHING that is thrown to him - no matter if double covered or not has already made him one of the better WRs in the game. It's not his fault he has a terrible QB throwing the ball to him.

Honestly - you're negativity and holier than thou attitude even bothers me on this subject -- get real.

Agreed, your position is ridiculous K9. I wasn't too high on Fitz, but it is quite clear; any time the team gets around the 20, and there is the possibility that Fitz has one on one coverage, throw the damn ball up, and let him catch it. The scary thing is, with Anquan, you'll have two guys who are absolute ballhawks on the same offense, I can't wait!

 

[Russ Smith]

I think we draftniks tend to get so much into numbers and whenever we hear that a guy is "polished" or a "finished product" we immediately downgrade the guy as not having upside potential. Pro Football Weekly actually had a little blurb a few weeks ago that mentioned that Fitzgerald was a lousy route runner and a guy had relied completely on his tremendous leaping ability and hands to outjump and outmuscle college defenders. If that is the case, then Fitzgerald has tremendous upside potential once he learns how to get open through proper route running and not just relying on lob passes that allow him to outjump everyone.

The main point is that Fitzgerald has special physical tools as well and sometimes we miss that because of his polished reputation.

The problem there is the people telling us how polished he was were named Dennis Green, Rod Graves, and other NFL Gm's.

I would agree his route running was highly overrated coming out of college, and he's going to be very good.

 

[Russ Smith]

Fitz has better hands and decent speed. Better body control. Great vision. He's just as good and WILL BE more durable in his career. Bank on that!

True, but just like most rebounds are taken below the rim, most catches are made on the ground. Fitz is good, quite possibly special, but so is Williams.

The numbers are getting closer(YPC). Fitz is going to be fun to watch and you're probably right about durability, my guess is the way he plays Roy is going to have more problems with injuries.

 

[kerouac9]

you don't watch the games do you K9? That is the only way you can possibly say the things above that you say because to say Fitz hasn't distinugihsed hismelf from the other "nobody" receivers is just plain and simple the dumbest thing I have ever read on this board - The guy's ability to go up in the air and catch ANYTHING that is thrown to him - no matter if double covered or not has already made him one of the better WRs in the game. It's not his fault he has a terrible QB throwing the ball to him.

Honestly - you're negativity and holier than thou attitude even bothers me on this subject -- get real.

I do watch the games. I've watched almost all of them, except for the first half of the Pats game and the first three quarters of the Rams game.

It is going too far to say that Fitz hasn't distinguished himself from Nate Poole and Karl Williams. I take it back. But there's a reason that he's not getting any national press and that good WRs like Roy Williams and Andre Johnson are. And it goes beyond having Josh McCown under center.

Fitz has good hands. He has good size. That's about all I've seen. He hasn't done anything after the catch. What we were promised during the draft was that Larry Fitzgerald is a special player who will win games for us and make plays. I haven't seen that yet. Far be it for me to be underwhelmed after not being delivered what was promised.

On the other hand, Roy Williams has shown the ability to win games for the Lions. That team is totally different without Williams on the field. Pardon me for being envious of such a player.

As for Larry Fitzgerald being "one of the better WRs in the game"? Lay off the ether. Fitz is carrying a DPAR rank of 36 and a DVOA rank of 40 at FootballOutsiders.com. The ablity to "go up and get it" is nice, but wasn't that one of the reasons that we drafted Bryant Johnson? Again, we've seen Roy Williams "go up and get it" and make great catches for TDs in triple and quadruple coverage. The question posed isn't "If Fitz a good WR", it's "Is Fitz a better WR than Roy Williams". The #11 that's the OROY favorite at this point is carrying a DPAR rank of 18 and a PAR rank of 19 right now.

There are at least a dozen other WRs in the game that would give us a better chance to win right now than Larry Fitzgerald, and one of them was available at #3 overall. I'm sorry if I'm not drinking the kool-aid with y'all. Maybe I have a better perspective from out here. I have no idea.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I do watch the games. I've watched almost all of them, except for the first half of the Pats game and the first three quarters of the Rams game.

It is going too far to say that Fitz hasn't distinguished himself from Nate Poole and Karl Williams. I take it back. But there's a reason that he's not getting any national press and that good WRs like Roy Williams and Andre Johnson are. And it goes beyond having Josh McCown under center.

Fitz has good hands. He has good size. That's about all I've seen. He hasn't done anything after the catch. What we were promised during the draft was that Larry Fitzgerald is a special player who will win games for us and make plays. I haven't seen that yet. Far be it for me to be underwhelmed after not being delivered what was promised.

On the other hand, Roy Williams has shown the ability to win games for the Lions. That team is totally different without Williams on the field. Pardon me for being envious of such a player.

As for Larry Fitzgerald being "one of the better WRs in the game"? Lay off the ether. Fitz is carrying a DPAR rank of 36 and a DVOA rank of 40 at FootballOutsiders.com. The ablity to "go up and get it" is nice, but wasn't that one of the reasons that we drafted Bryant Johnson? Again, we've seen Roy Williams "go up and get it" and make great catches for TDs in triple and quadruple coverage. The question posed isn't "If Fitz a good WR", it's "Is Fitz a better WR than Roy Williams". The #11 that's the OROY favorite at this point is carrying a DPAR rank of 18 and a PAR rank of 19 right now.

There are at least a dozen other WRs in the game that would give us a better chance to win right now than Larry Fitzgerald, and one of them was available at #3 overall. I'm sorry if I'm not drinking the kool-aid with y'all. Maybe I have a better perspective from out here. I have no idea.

this is all nonsense. First - you bag on McCown on EVERY other thread but here it's not really that much of a factor why Fitz's number aren't better? That's a joke first off.

And second - let's take a look at Mr. Williams number shall we - His first game - he had 69 yards - boy - he sure won that game for the Lions. His second game - he had 73 yards and 2 TDs - okay - he definitely had an impact there. His third game - I don't really remember him making all that much of an impact as the Lions got down 21-0 from the start and then had to throw the ball all day long. I mean 135 yrds and two TDs is nice - if only it didn't come in a game where the Lions LOST 30-13. Then he sure did help them win their next game with a sterling 3 for 18 performance that put him on the sidelines with an injury (something that nagged him during college). And then yesterday - he had 67 yards and a Touchdown.

Averaging 70 yards ain't all that K9. The guy is a stud without a doubt - but his YPC is only 1 yard higher than Fitz and his yards per game are only 10 yards more than Fitz. This is all with a better QB. Up till this point - Josh has been one of the WORST QBS IN FOOTBALL and you can't just take that out of the equation.

Meanwhile - onto Fitz - last week - he was the key reason our offense was successful, and once again this week, he was the ONLY reason the offense scored a touchdown until Josh went into panic-stricken mode.

The difference between thetwo guys and their numbers are that Detroit had one really bad ball game where they were forced to throw because they were beuind all game long, thus Roy has gotten more opportunities and yardage - based on that one game - it's not Fitz's fault that we've been more competitive overall than the Lions.

 

[D-Dogg]

Fitz was open, had beaten his man and was open, multiple times yesterday but Josh was not looking his way, especially in the second half.

Fitz should have had another 60 yards, at least, if Josh had gone his way even half the times he was open. And another TD.

Harrington has doe-eyes for RW, but for some reason Josh was falling in love with BJ yesterday. I'd like to see Josh make goo-goo eyes at Fitz for one game, and light up the defense. Now, with the Q coming back, I think we're going to see a lot more downfield stuff opening up, and it's going to be Josh's final exam in this offense.

 

[kerouac9]

this is all nonsense. First - you bag on McCown on EVERY other thread but here it's not really that much of a factor why Fitz's number aren't better? That's a joke first off.

And second - let's take a look at Mr. Williams number shall we - His first game - he had 69 yards - boy - he sure won that game for the Lions. His second game - he had 73 yards and 2 TDs - okay - he definitely had an impact there. His third game - I don't really remember him making all that much of an impact as the Lions got down 21-0 from the start and then had to throw the ball all day long. I mean 135 yrds and two TDs is nice - if only it didn't come in a game where the Lions LOST 30-13. Then he sure did help them win their next game with a sterling 3 for 18 performance that put him on the sidelines with an injury (something that nagged him during college). And then yesterday - he had 67 yards and a Touchdown.

Averaging 70 yards ain't all that K9. The guy is a stud without a doubt - but his YPC is only 1 yard higher than Fitz and his yards per game are only 10 yards more than Fitz. This is all with a better QB. Up till this point - Josh has been one of the WORST QBS IN FOOTBALL and you can't just take that out of the equation.

Meanwhile - onto Fitz - last week - he was the key reason our offense was successful, and once again this week, he was the ONLY reason the offense scored a touchdown until Josh went into panic-stricken mode.

The difference between thetwo guys and their numbers are that Detroit had one really bad ball game where they were forced to throw because they were beuind all game long, thus Roy has gotten more opportunities and yardage - based on that one game - it's not Fitz's fault that we've been more competitive overall than the Lions.

Have you seen the Lions play at all this season, Cheese? Besides the highlights of Williams plucking the ball out of the hands of like four different DBs on a play, or anything?

The FootballOutsiders database takes into account horrible QBs to try and even the field for skill position players. Again: RW=18, LF=36.

Not to mention that RW's presence is basically the primary factor between the Lions being horrible and the Lions being #2 in their division and within striking distance. We all agree that it's the defense that's been the factor in the Cards' resurgence. If we had just a little better production out of our offense, then we could probably be 4-2 instead of the other way around. Well, we drafted a WR #3 overall. One Top 10 WR is paying dividends and making the players around him better. The other one is getting a lot of excuses from the message board.

Even the statement that Fitz is the guy that "keeps the chains moving" rings a little hollow. Fitz has 17 catches for first down. Williams has 17. In 1.5 fewer games.

I guess the most damning argument against you, Cheese, is that I don't have to argue with you about how RW is a stud. You readily admit it, and it's self-evident. On the other hand, I don't hear anyone outside this board still referring to Larry Fitzgerald as a stud or a game-breaker. There's a lot of noise about his draft status, but not a whole lot about his performance. And I'm looking. Maybe I'm spoiled by 'Quan's performance last season and knowing that BJ's a project going in, but I just don't see what there's so much to be excited over with Larry Fitzgerald.

P.S. - I hear what you're saying on McCown v. Harrington, but it's not like one's the best QB in football and the other blows. Harrington is merely playing mediocre (20 DPAR, 19 PAR), but it's better than McCown (28 DPAR, 25 PAR).

 

[Cheesebeef]

Have you seen the Lions play at all this season, Cheese? Besides the highlights of Williams plucking the ball out of the hands of like four different DBs on a play, or anything?

The FootballOutsiders database takes into account horrible QBs to try and even the field for skill position players. Again: RW=18, LF=36.

Not to mention that RW's presence is basically the primary factor between the Lions being horrible and the Lions being #2 in their division and within striking distance. We all agree that it's the defense that's been the factor in the Cards' resurgence. If we had just a little better production out of our offense, then we could probably be 4-2 instead of the other way around. Well, we drafted a WR #3 overall. One Top 10 WR is paying dividends and making the players around him better. The other one is getting a lot of excuses from the message board.

Even the statement that Fitz is the guy that "keeps the chains moving" rings a little hollow. Fitz has 17 catches for first down. Williams has 17. In 1.5 fewer games.

I guess the most damning argument against you, Cheese, is that I don't have to argue with you about how RW is a stud. You readily admit it, and it's self-evident. On the other hand, I don't hear anyone outside this board still referring to Larry Fitzgerald as a stud or a game-breaker. There's a lot of noise about his draft status, but not a whole lot about his performance. And I'm looking. Maybe I'm spoiled by 'Quan's performance last season and knowing that BJ's a project going in, but I just don't see what there's so much to be excited over with Larry Fitzgerald.

P.S. - I hear what you're saying on McCown v. Harrington, but it's not like one's the best QB in football and the other blows. Harrington is merely playing mediocre (20 DPAR, 19 PAR), but it's better than McCown (28 DPAR, 25 PAR).

You watch the Cardinals - you know how much Josh blows - he's not even a good backup in this league K9. And I really don't care what the press is or isn't saying about Fitz - and the fact that that is your trump argument makes you just seem like a groupie for pub players more than anything else.

The fact that you don't see a guy leaping over two defenders or catching TERRIBLY thrown balls for touchdowns or being able to put up numbers that have him on course for a 1000 yard rookie season doesn't excite you - well - then I guess you'll have to go find some other team to root for until they get the national attention that I guess you think is so important as far as discerning if a team or player is good or not.

K9 - I've defended you many times before - but I'm really starting to think you just like bitching about the Cardinals - plain and simple.