Immediate Impact or Long Term Dominance?

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I assumed that QBs are excluded from this list.

Stephon Gilmore started 16 games and had 16 passes defensed his rookie season.
Melvin Gordon isn't "long-term dominant."
Patrick Peterson went to the Pro Bowl his first season.
I'll counter with:

Gilmore got a single pick his rookie year, then his sophomore season was unspectacular, he never made a Pro Bowl, only played in 16 games that one year, and the Bills didn't even bother to franchise him. Now he's one of the best in football.

Gordon I'll give to you, but he played some really great seasons.

Peterson went to the Pro Bowl as a returner, and we all know that. It's kinda like claiming Budda Baker was a smash hit as a rookie, when he went for special teams.

I'm not intending to move the goalposts on my own argument, so apologies if I am, but here's a better example of what I'm kinda getting at. Let's look at Da'ron Payne vs. Leighton Vander Esch in 2018.

NFL.com (I won't bother linking each profile because we know it doesn't work on the board) says: "Payne is a game-ready starter who immediately upgrades a defense's ability to slow the run."

and

"Vander Esch might benefit from a reduced role his rookie season while he improves his play strength and becomes more skilled at taking on blocks."

I think we'd all call Payne's short-term contributions negligible, while LVE is a second-team All-Pro already.
 

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I'll counter with:

Gilmore got a single pick his rookie year, then his sophomore season was unspectacular, he never made a Pro Bowl, only played in 16 games that one year, and the Bills didn't even bother to franchise him. Now he's one of the best in football.

Gordon I'll give to you, but he played some really great seasons.

Peterson went to the Pro Bowl as a returner, and we all know that. It's kinda like claiming Budda Baker was a smash hit as a rookie, when he went for special teams.

I'm not intending to move the goalposts on my own argument, so apologies if I am, but here's a better example of what I'm kinda getting at. Let's look at Da'ron Payne vs. Leighton Vander Esch in 2018.

NFL.com (I won't bother linking each profile because we know it doesn't work on the board) says: "Payne is a game-ready starter who immediately upgrades a defense's ability to slow the run."

and

"Vander Esch might benefit from a reduced role his rookie season while he improves his play strength and becomes more skilled at taking on blocks."

I think we'd all call Payne's short-term contributions negligible, while LVE is a second-team All-Pro already.

If you're asking whether you want a player with good tools who hasn't proven it at the lower level, versus a guy with less tools that has produced consistently in college, I'll take the latter almost every time.

Keim won't. He LOVES toolsy prospects, and will choose them over proven guys every time. Even with Murray, he talked about throws that he made and not overall productivity.

Otherwise, you're looking at Deone Bucannon (tools), Robert Nkeimdiche (tools), Haason Reddick (tools), and D.J. Humphries (tools). Yikes.
 
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If you're asking whether you want a player with good tools who hasn't proven it at the lower level, versus a guy with less tools that has produced consistently in college, I'll take the latter almost every time.

Keim won't. He LOVES toolsy prospects, and will choose them over proven guys every time. Even with Murray, he talked about throws that he made and not overall productivity.

Otherwise, you're looking at Deone Bucannon (tools), Robert Nkeimdiche (tools), Haason Reddick (tools), and D.J. Humphries (tools). Yikes.
I definitely didn't make the thread to argue, but I still think the situation of immediate impact vs. long term success, and production vs. tools is a little divorced.

I'm struggling to find consistent starting snaps at OT for these guys, but in an example of Wills maybe having better technique and being more "pro ready" than Wirfs, doesn't define Wirfs as a project, who was also the first true freshman starter at Iowa in the Ferentz era.
 

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With our draft luck I’d take either one. Both options are better than what we have been getting lately. Bucannon Reddick Floyd Cooper the Diche
 

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Kugler's been one of the #1 reasons I've heard that we don't need to draft a more talented offensive lineman. I feel like he's been given the benefit of the doubt really quickly.
Look, I hate the Steelers with all my might but they don't hire bum OL coaches. Kugler was the OL coach there for several yrs. The only reason he left is because when things didn't go well, Tomlin started putting the blame on others. Kugler imo, is one of the best in the business, just getting something out of the line last yr should've proved that to many? Have some faith my brother, our OL will improve in 2020. Plus we may end up adding one of the 4-5 OL in this draft?
 
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Look, I hate the Steelers with all my might but they don't hire bum OL coaches. Kugler was the OL coach there for several yrs. The only reason he left is because when things didn't go well, Tomlin started putting the blame on others. Kugler imo, is one of the best in the business, just getting something out of the line last yr should've proved that to many? Have some faith my brother, our OL will improve in 2020. Plus we may end up adding one of the 4-5 OL in this draft?
He had a two-year stint with the Steelers 8 years ago. I don't see how it's relevant. With the Broncos in 2018, he didn't even coach the entire position group.

This isn't me trying to be negative, but it's been a looooong time since he coached a Pro Bowl OL.

He did a fine job last season, but not one that makes me think he's going to turn late round picks into stars.
 

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He had a two-year stint with the Steelers 8 years ago. I don't see how it's relevant. With the Broncos in 2018, he didn't even coach the entire position group.

This isn't me trying to be negative, but it's been a looooong time since he coached a Pro Bowl OL.

He did a fine job last season, but not one that makes me think he's going to turn late round picks into stars.
I know you're not very high on Justin Murray, that's understandable. I know Justin Murray had a few turd games, but what he did with that kid, only being here a few days before the Lions game was very nice imo. That Lions DL had 2 or 3 former pro bowlers on it I believe? Not 100% sure on that though. Flowers & the FA signee they got from the Packers right off the top of my head. I'm not saying that he will turn late round picks into stars but every player has untapped potential somewhere, it's just a matter of whether a coach can get it out of them or not? I can't name one OL coach we've had since 1976 that could've done what he did with Murray that first game. Joe Bugel maybe but he was our head coach & the majority of his OL coaching career came while with the Redskins before landing in Arizona. Those "Hawg" OL'men with those Redskins teams he coached had several all pros. At least he got improvement out of our line in 2019. The OL has been one of our problems for yrs now, plus SK hasn't had any luck drafting them, or maybe he just doesn't know how lol? I believe we're heading in the right direction with Sean Kugler. Maybe just maybe SK will take the advice of Kugler on whom to select? We'll find out in about 6 days.
 

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If you're asking whether you want a player with good tools who hasn't proven it at the lower level, versus a guy with less tools that has produced consistently in college, I'll take the latter almost every time.

Keim won't. He LOVES toolsy prospects, and will choose them over proven guys every time. Even with Murray, he talked about throws that he made and not overall productivity.

Otherwise, you're looking at Deone Bucannon (tools), Robert Nkeimdiche (tools), Haason Reddick (tools), and D.J. Humphries (tools). Yikes.

Amen!
 

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Give me a player that is an immediate impact and doesn't decide to retire after 1 year (Chris Borland)
 

TheCardFan

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For the same reason we can't expect KK's offense to run without a stud #1 WR...the same should be said about the OL. We need at least 1 sure fire stud that we can count on each year to dominate. We can then sprinkle in some gems that Kugler developed and maybe a vet.

It's truly remarkable how he got this rag tag bunch to produce like he did given their significant challenges from a talent perspective.

Last years line:
Humphries should be our #1 but he hasn't played that way yet. We may have to replace him in 2 years.
Pugh is our high priced veteran FA but hasn't played up to that expectation. He would be gone if it wasn't for his contract IMO
AQ - 7th round pick
Sweezy - 7th rd pick at DL that converted to OL in NFL
Murray - Undrafted
 
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He had a two-year stint with the Steelers 8 years ago. I don't see how it's relevant. With the Broncos in 2018, he didn't even coach the entire position group.

This isn't me trying to be negative, but it's been a looooong time since he coached a Pro Bowl OL.

He did a fine job last season, but not one that makes me think he's going to turn late round picks into stars.

He has a pretty good history coaching o-line.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sean_Kugler

First NFL stint[edit]
Kugler got his first professional coaching experience in 2001 as a tight end coach with the Detroit Lions of the NFL. He later worked his way into a role as offensive line coach in 2004.[7]

There's absolutely no question that he's the best football coach I've ever been around.
— Boise State head coach Chris Petersen on Kugler[8]

Boise State[edit]
In 2006, Kugler moved to Boise State, assuming a role as assistant head coach and offensive line coach. The 2006 Boise State Broncos football team was the only undefeated team in college football that year, winning the WAC title and beating Oklahoma in the 2007 Fiesta Bowl. They boasted the sixth-ranked rushing performance in the nation behind Kugler's offensive line led by sophomore Ryan Clady and junior Jeff Cavender, who earned All-WAC honors.

Second NFL stint[edit]
Kugler joined the Buffalo Bills in 2007 as assistant offensive line coach.[2] He was promoted to offensive line coach the following year.[9] He quickly improved the Bills' line and mentored tackle Jason Peters to two consecutive Pro Bowl selections. Kugler’s units blocked for three consecutive 1,000-yard rushers: Marshawn Lynch (2007-08) and Fred Jackson (2009).[10] The Bills' offensive line became remarkably consistent and cohesive, surrendering only 26 sacks on the 2007 season and consisting of the same lineup for 15 consecutive games.[9][11]

He joined the Pittsburgh Steelers in 2010 following the dismissal of the previous offensive line coach, Larry Zierlein.[12] He had previously replaced Zierlein as assistant line coach for the Bills in 2007.[2] In his first season as a coach with the Steelers, the team made it to the Super Bowl despite season-ending injuries to both starting offensive tackles and the presence of a rookie starting center.[13] Center Maurkice Pouncey made his first three Pro Bowls under Kugler from 2010-12.
 
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He has a pretty good history coaching o-line.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sean_Kugler

First NFL stint[edit]
Kugler got his first professional coaching experience in 2001 as a tight end coach with the Detroit Lions of the NFL. He later worked his way into a role as offensive line coach in 2004.[7]

There's absolutely no question that he's the best football coach I've ever been around.
— Boise State head coach Chris Petersen on Kugler[8]

Boise State[edit]
In 2006, Kugler moved to Boise State, assuming a role as assistant head coach and offensive line coach. The 2006 Boise State Broncos football team was the only undefeated team in college football that year, winning the WAC title and beating Oklahoma in the 2007 Fiesta Bowl. They boasted the sixth-ranked rushing performance in the nation behind Kugler's offensive line led by sophomore Ryan Clady and junior Jeff Cavender, who earned All-WAC honors.

Second NFL stint[edit]
Kugler joined the Buffalo Bills in 2007 as assistant offensive line coach.[2] He was promoted to offensive line coach the following year.[9] He quickly improved the Bills' line and mentored tackle Jason Peters to two consecutive Pro Bowl selections. Kugler’s units blocked for three consecutive 1,000-yard rushers: Marshawn Lynch (2007-08) and Fred Jackson (2009).[10] The Bills' offensive line became remarkably consistent and cohesive, surrendering only 26 sacks on the 2007 season and consisting of the same lineup for 15 consecutive games.[9][11]

He joined the Pittsburgh Steelers in 2010 following the dismissal of the previous offensive line coach, Larry Zierlein.[12] He had previously replaced Zierlein as assistant line coach for the Bills in 2007.[2] In his first season as a coach with the Steelers, the team made it to the Super Bowl despite season-ending injuries to both starting offensive tackles and the presence of a rookie starting center.[13] Center Maurkice Pouncey made his first three Pro Bowls under Kugler from 2010-12.
I'm not saying his coaching stint isn't strong as a whole, just that he hasn't been responsible for a pro bowl player in nearly a decade, and before joining us wasn't even coaching the entire line in Denver.

I don't understand why he is so much more revered than some of the other guys on our staff, is all. He gets a ton of credit around here.
 

TheCardFan

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I don't understand why he is so much more revered than some of the other guys on our staff, is all. He gets a ton of credit around here.

How else do you explain the improvement in our OL last year?

KK's system certainly helps IMO. Great play design in running game and TE's certainly helped.
 
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How else do you explain the improvement in our OL last year?

KK's system certainly helps IMO. Great play design in running game and TE's certainly helped.
We went from last to like 22nd. I don't think we were really all that improved, and Kyler running for his life helped their numbers. Kyler was the 5th most hurried QB in the league, but most evasive.

Also, DJ and Pugh staying healthy for once helped.
 

TheCardFan

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We went from last to like 22nd.

Yeah but I would say the 2nd half performance seemed much better and we did it (improved year over year) without adding a top draft pick/FA from the year before.

We had 2 7th round picks, and undrafted guy, a veteran (Pugh), and Humphries. That is crap for talent IMO.

It would be interesting to look at the talent level of #23-32 teams.
 
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Yeah but I would say the 2nd half performance seemed much better and we did it (improved year over year) without adding a top draft pick/FA from the year before.

We had 2 7th round picks, and undrafted guy, a veteran (Pugh), and Humphries. That is crap for talent IMO.

It would be interesting to look at the talent level of #23-32 teams.
I don't know man, we added Sweezy, AQ Shipley played in 16 games instead of 0, Pugh played in 16 games instead of 7, Humphries played in 16 games instead of 9, we had a completely new RT...

That's a pretty dramatic transformation.
 
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