Insider - Jan. 6th, More trades coming for Suns & Knicks

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by cly2tw
It's exactly the concern. If nobody wants him, what does it tell about his true value?

Wait. That's not the point. I'm sure 90% of the NBA would love to have Shawn Marion, but when you factor in his salary, you'd have to include some pretty important players to your team. IMO, there aren't many teams that are willing to part with a Paul Pierce or a Vince Carter for Shawn Marion. For example. That doesn't mean he has no value.

 

[cly2tw]

Originally posted by Chaplin
Wait. That's not the point. I'm sure 90% of the NBA would love to have Shawn Marion, but when you factor in his salary, you'd have to include some pretty important players to your team. IMO, there aren't many teams that are willing to part with a Paul Pierce or a Vince Carter for Shawn Marion. For example. That doesn't mean he has no value.

So, let me ask you which team would want him from us without any compensation? Would the Bobcats?

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by cly2tw
So, let me ask you which team would want him from us without any compensation? Would the Bobcats?

Ok, so now we're in the Magical Land of Oz, then?

One, the Bobcats would love to have a Shawn Marion. Does that mean we're going to leave him unprotected? What if we do, they take him away and Kobe decides to re-sign with the Lakers?

Woops!

Come on, let's be at least a little realistic here.

 

[cly2tw]

Originally posted by Chaplin
Ok, so now we're in the Magical Land of Oz, then?

One, the Bobcats would love to have a Shawn Marion. Does that mean we're going to leave him unprotected? What if we do, they take him away and Kobe decides to re-sign with the Lakers?

Woops!

Come on, let's be at least a little realistic here.

I'd have no problem with that scenario. With patience, Denver got Miller, Miami got Odom. It's uncertain, but definitely not that hopeless than Chicago and Denver looked for a while, due to the good reputation of the Suns organization. In comparision, with the max burden of Marion's salary, you are much less flexible.

When you rebuild, then do it thoroughly!

But I don't know the rationale why the Bobcats would want Marion with the max? Is he a franchise player for them? Or do the Bobcats play in a phantasy league, where only stats are important?

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

Lots of thoughts here.

First off. Are you saying Marion will never become smarter on the court? I am assuming Pippen played 3-4 years of collage ball. He also had an offensive genius in Tex Winter as an assistant coach. Marion went to a JUCO, then to UNLV. He hasn't had a solid coach to teach him basketball IQ yet. In fact, it is amazing that Marion is so unbelievably good without the basketball knowledge.

He is 24 years old. He has like 12 years of basketball ahead of him. The thought process behind resigning 90% of your RFAs is that they will grow into their contract. The Hornets did the same thing with Baron Davis. He had been a dissapointment till this year.

Anyways, even with Marions poor play this year, his numbers are still great.

18.4 ppg, 9.8 rpg (2.8 offesive), 2.5 asp, 2.03 spg, 1.79bpg, 43% fg.

He is #12 in Rebounds per game, #6 in steals per game, #7 in steals per turnovers, #7 in FT percentage, #17 in blocks, #10 in double doubles. He is ELEVENTH in the league in efficency rating.




Compare that to you man Paul Pierce,

23.7 ppg, 7.1 rpg, 5.7 asp, 1.53 spg, .78 bpg, 41% fg

He is #6 in ppg, #18 in steals per game, #13 in apg, with a TWELVEth place in efficency rating



Paul Pierce is the main man on the celtics.




If this is considered a bad year for Marion, his numbers warrant his contract by comparing him to the best of the league. Plain and simple.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

Secondly, with Marions contracts on the books, the team is still very flexible. In fact, it becomes an enticement to FAs. No one wants to play on a team without a proven star. It is very hard to get the first guy to ink the contract.

With Marion players know they have a guy whos game will compliment their style, not inhibit it.



Moving Marion for nothing is ridiculous. As George has pointed out many times, he is overpaid, but not by more than 2 million a year. If he is left unprotected, the Bobcats take him for sure. That would be horrible for the suns. The team did not move Marbury just for Salary relief. They also did it because they recieved 2 very good prospects, and 2 first round picks. They could have moved him to a number of teams for just an expiring deal I would assume. They weren't going to do it unless they got a bunch of prospects. The same can be assumed for Marion.






edit
When we moved Steph and Hardaway, we made Marions contract affordable.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

Originally posted by cly2tw
George,

Marion is a complementary player, though a good one at that. Let's agree on this, shall we?

A complementary player, by definition, can be more easily replaced than, say, a franchise player. Thus, committing a max contract to a complementary player is an inexcusable blunder, unless you are aiming at the championship in short time.

That is debatable. I can rattle off 10 franchise players, but I cannot name a single complimentary player that can do what Marion can. Fact of the matter is, Marion has a combination of abilities that no one else playing pro basketball has. That cannot be said about most players, even franchise ones. Not only can he do things that no one else can, but he doesn't need to dominate the ball in order to do them. In fact, he doesn't need plays run for him. He doesn't complain he doesn't get enough touches. He is one of a kind.

I happen to believe that Marion is irreplaceable. Does that mean he is necessary to our success? I will not say that right now, however giving him away for nothing is ridiculous. We traded our franchise player, but we might already have a replacement franchise player on our team in Amare.

Not to mention we may gain another franchise player in the FA market.







My point is, franchise players come and go in todays NBA. Players like Marion do not. When we had Steph and Shawn, obviously Shawn is the preferred move. However, when you think about it, not as a suns fan, you will see that moving Steph was the better deal. There hasn't been a team that wont the championship when its best player was a PG since maybe Isiah Thomas (not familiar to the team, assuming he was the best). His contract was larger. By moving him, it allows us to keep Shawn, and hopefully add a franchise player that will not only win a few games, but a championship. IMO Marion will be a key componant to that team winning, no matter who the superstar is.


............much like Pippen.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

Originally posted by cly2tw
Is he a franchise player for them? Or do the Bobcats play in a phantasy league, where only stats are important?

That is irrational. Stats are a measure of a player. A bad player cannot get stats like Marions.

Is Marion a franchise player? No, and the suns never expected him to be. However, there doesn't have to be 1 franchise player to win. They need people around them.

Jordan needed Pippen.

TMAC cant do it on his own.

Neither can Pierce.

Neither can AI.

Shaq needs Kobe, and vice versa.



Is there a magic rule in the NBA that says only franchise players should have max contracts? I know many people on this board feel that way, however 29 GMS and owners feel differently. Guess which matters more.

Marion is the perfect second fiddle. His game didn't fit well with Stephs. We all recognized this. Hopefully the next player they bring in will mesh better with him, because he is epitomy of a team player (that has skills, I consider Lil Jake a team player too)

 

[cly2tw]

Originally posted by thegrahamcrackr
Lots of thoughts here.


Anyways, even with Marions poor play this year, his numbers are still great.

18.4 ppg, 9.8 rpg (2.8 offesive), 2.5 asp, 2.03 spg, 1.79bpg, 43% fg.

He is #12 in Rebounds per game, #6 in steals per game, #7 in steals per turnovers, #7 in FT percentage, #17 in blocks, #10 in double doubles. He is ELEVENTH in the league in efficency rating.




Compare that to you man Paul Pierce,

23.7 ppg, 7.1 rpg, 5.7 asp, 1.53 spg, .78 bpg, 41% fg

He is #6 in ppg, #18 in steals per game, #13 in apg, with a TWELVEth place in efficency rating



Paul Pierce is the main man on the celtics.




If this is considered a bad year for Marion, his numbers warrant his contract by comparing him to the best of the league. Plain and simple.

This is exactly why I'm frustrated that people too often compare stats without considering the circumstances the players are in. Pierce, like Iverson, draws constant double and triple teamings on offense. Though their shooting % is not high, they CREATE so much space for their teammates, that the teams can win with the way they play! You can't say that about Marion's game. He is a complementary player par excellence, but a complementary player nevertheless, period!

It'd be insane if the Bobcats start off the franchise by giving a max contract to a complementary player without knowing who is their franchise player.

As to getting smarter by time, it's not completely impossible. But in the last one and half seasons, he didn't progress at all regarding his skills. This makes many believe he won't develop anything more beyond the natural tools he now already possesses. Or it's a high risk in any case. So, it'd be better someone else's risk, while we could make good use of the cap room generated by a trade.

BTW, when you watch Marbury, Pippen, Kobe, Jordan, Allen, Pierce move, you should notice that they move SMOOTHly on the court. Marion doesn't! Amare is not that smooth yet. Bad fit here too that you have too many players with no smarts, no smoothness, yet earning, or soon to be, the max.

 

[cly2tw]

Originally posted by thegrahamcrackr


Marion is the perfect second fiddle. His game didn't fit well with Stephs. We all recognized this. Hopefully the next player they bring in will mesh better with him, because he is epitomy of a team player (that has skills, I consider Lil Jake a team player too)

Are you saying that we will limit our search for a franchise player to those that'd be good fit for Marion?

Marion's talent is unique, but that uniqueness doesn't win you games. However unique his style is, as a complementary player he is much more dispensible than franchise players are. And when you are willing to tailor your search of franchise players to fit the unique style of a complementary player, something is not right, if not outright absurd.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

No, I am suggesting they find a franchise player that fits the team. Not just get a guy because people call him a franchise player. If your team meshes, you win games. You don't win games because of the #1 player on the team.


Once again, I disagree that he is more dispensable than a franchise player. I already explained why.


The franchise player on the team should not have to intiate the offense. When that happens, they will dominate the ball. It causes a lack of movement by the rest of the team. That has been proved.

Look at how much better the Laker offense flows now that Payton can intiate it instead of Kobe having to.


Almost any player would fit Marion's style, thats the point. Just not a PG, unless of course it is Kidd. If the team has a structured offense where multiple people have to touch the ball each time down the floor, Marion will be better for it. Whether Amare becomes the #1 option, or Kobe for example, it does not matter.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

Originally posted by cly2tw
This is exactly why I'm frustrated that people too often compare stats without considering the circumstances the players are in. Pierce, like Iverson, draws constant double and triple teamings on offense. Though their shooting % is not high, they CREATE so much space for their teammates, that the teams can win with the way they play! You can't say that about Marion's game. He is a complementary player par excellence, but a complementary player nevertheless, period!

It'd be insane if the Bobcats start off the franchise by giving a max contract to a complementary player without knowing who is their franchise player.

As to getting smarter by time, it's not completely impossible. But in the last one and half seasons, he didn't progress at all regarding his skills. This makes many believe he won't develop anything more beyond the natural tools he now already possesses. Or it's a high risk in any case. So, it'd be better someone else's risk, while we could make good use of the cap room generated by a trade.

BTW, when you watch Marbury, Pippen, Kobe, Jordan, Allen, Pierce move, you should notice that they move SMOOTHly on the court. Marion doesn't! Amare is not that smooth yet. Bad fit here too that you have too many players with no smarts, no smoothness, yet earning, or soon to be, the max.

And their assist numbers are higher because of the double teams. I would expect the same from Marions.


About the last 1 and ahalf years and not getting smarter, I must have forgot how well FJ knew the game of basketball. Of course Marion should have shown more intellegence under his reign.




You are right, they have to deal with much harder defenses. However, they DOMINATE the ball. It is always in their hands. Over 80% of the plays are called for them.

Marion doesn't need to touch the ball in the set. He has like 1 play called for him, and that is the alley oop.

That is why the numbers are comparable. The former have harder situations to deal with, while the latter doesn't get the ball.

 

[hcsilla]

I completely agree with Chaplin and thegrahamcrackr.

Originally posted by cly2tw
With patience, Denver got Miller, Miami got Odom.

Did they?
Good luck to them!

I would let DEN and MIA to be happy with Odom and Miller and I would take Shawn Marion over both on any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

Marion is not a franchise player but he is the best complementary player of NBA.
There is absolutely no need to dump him for expiring deals.That would be a very stupid move from the Suns, IMO.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

Originally posted by hcsilla
I completely agree with Chaplin and thegrahamcrackr.

This might be the first time anyone has agreed with me........

Thank you!

 

[cly2tw]

Originally posted by thegrahamcrackr

Once again, I disagree that he is more dispensable than a franchise player. I already explained why.

There is the fundamental disagreement that lead us to completely different conclusions and proposals.

For example, I'd take Duncan/Manu/Stephon Jackson, or Duncan/Maggette/Bowen, over Duncan/Marion, for likely much less money. You might want the other way round. Let's just agree on disagree now.

 

[hcsilla]

Originally posted by thegrahamcrackr
This might be the first time anyone has agreed with me........

Thank you!

My pleasure.

 

[hcsilla]

Originally posted by cly2tw
or Duncan/Maggette/Bowen, over Duncan/Marion, for likely much less money.

1st off all Maggette and Bowen together isn't much less money than Marion.
In fact the difference is smaller than 1 mil.

Furthermore if a team is away by a Bowen-caliber player from the real chance for the ring then IMO every single owner (except maybe Donald Sterling) will spend that 5 mil. which is needed to make the last step.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

Originally posted by cly2tw
There is the fundamental disagreement that lead us to completely different conclusions and proposals.

For example, I'd take Duncan/Manu/Stephon Jackson, or Duncan/Maggette/Bowen, over Duncan/Marion, for likely much less money. You might want the other way round. Let's just agree on disagree now.

You are definitely missing my point.


I am merely saying that franchise players are more abundant, and available than players like Marion. Mostly because there is no other like him.

There are obviously a handful of about 5 or so franchise players who are exempt from this, Duncan of course being one.

 

[Joe Mama]

Originally posted by Chaplin
Why is Marion a bad fit for the Suns future?

I just don't understand some of you people. We get rid of Steph and then all of a sudden we're calling for Marion's head. Let's see how he reacts first. Sure, right now, he's not worth his upcoming contract, but he's still very young and a very good player--complimentary or not. He really is our "Scottie Pippen", no question about that. We just need our Jordan.

If there is a way to keep Marion while still shedding salary to get someone like Kobe, then I am 100% for that. Marion has admitted just today that he hasn't been playing like he should be playing--I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, and it certainly isn't an issue of whether he is a bad fit or not. He's young and athletic. If that's not a good fit with the Suns, what is? Old and slow? We had that and traded it to NY yesterday.

I think I've basically agree with you here, except I think Shawn Marion will get a chance to improve because there is no other choice. Basically the Phoenix Suns are stuck with him whether they like it or not until at least next season. I think there is a good chance he will improve over the rest of this season. I think the coaches will work with him, and he will work his ass off during the summer to improve. Let's not forget that this is really the first season Shawn Marion has struggled with his shooting. Before this year he was a very consistent midrange shooter. That's what this team needs. It needs players that must be guarded.

I know there are many of you who will disagree with me, but IMO there is no way to Charlotte bobcats would just take Shawn Marion and that contract. If he only had a couple years left on his contract that would be one thing, but they would be taking a guy with six years of maximum money coming to him. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see Shawn Marion is not a maximum player. He is not a franchise player. And his size is becoming a problem at small forward. He is not the second fiddle on the championship caliber team. Now if the Phoenix Suns were to throw the rights to Vujanic and 1-2 first-round draft picks Charlotte might think about it. But the pot would definitely have to be sweetened.

So basically I guess I am saying that I don't think Shawn Marion is going anywhere. I'm just hoping through the rest of this year and the summer he gets back on track. At the very least that would make him a more tradable commodity.

BTW if the Phoenix Suns plan is to build a team around a high dollar free-agent and Amare Stoudemire I don't see how Shawn Marion can fit into that picture with his contract. Of course we don't know what the next CBA will look like, so now I'm going in circles.

At least now we are talking about all of these great possibilities instead of wondering about what is going to happen when Marbury and Marion alone are making a combined $35 million in a few years. I feel much better about this team today than I did Sunday evening.

Joe Mama

 

[cly2tw]

Originally posted by Joe Mama
I know there are many of you who will disagree with me, but IMO there is no way to Charlotte bobcats would just take Shawn Marion and that contract. If he only had a couple years left on his contract that would be one thing, but they would be taking a guy with six years of maximum money coming to him. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see Shawn Marion is not a maximum player. He is not a franchise player. And his size is becoming a problem at small forward. He is not the second fiddle on the championship caliber team. Now if the Phoenix Suns were to throw the rights to Vujanic and 1-2 first-round draft picks Charlotte might think about it. But the pot would definitely have to be sweetened.

So basically I guess I am saying that I don't think Shawn Marion is going anywhere. I'm just hoping through the rest of this year and the summer he gets back on track. At the very least that would make him a more tradable commodity.

BTW if the Phoenix Suns plan is to build a team around a high dollar free-agent and Amare Stoudemire I don't see how Shawn Marion can fit into that picture with his contract. Of course we don't know what the next CBA will look like, so now I'm going in circles.
Joe Mama

Joe,

it's my sentiment exactly. I'm also hoping Marion would improve a bit, now we are basically stuck with him.

 

[Joe Mama]

I just want to say one more thing about Shawn Marion. I do think his rebounding statistics are a little bit deceiving. There's no doubt he is a very, very good rebounder, but those numbers will drop again when Amare Stoudemire returns. We can compare Shawn Marion's numbers all day to players like Paul Pierce, Tracy McGrady, and other franchise players, but common sense tells us they are different. Those guys are doing it as the focal point of their offense. Every team that faces them focuses their attention on those players. Shawn Marion is the second or third option.

I just read an article where D'Antoni said they are going to work hard to get Shawn Marion going. He said they want to turn him into a slasher off the wings which is where he is probably at his best. He also said that when Amare Stoudemire returns they are going to be dumping the ball down to him a lot. I hope so.

Joe Mama

 

[cly2tw]

Joe,

where did you read that by DA?

 

[Joe Mama]

Originally posted by cly2tw
Joe,

where did you read that by DA?

It was in a new article on AZCentral this morning. I'm going to post the article in about 30 seconds.

Joe Mama

 

[Errntknght]

I don't see why people think Shawn isn't a good fit for this team. D' has said he wants a team that pushes the ball hard up the floor, and Marion fits that to a T. He even gets lots of defensive rebounds and steals, which are crucial components of that style.

I'm hoping that the coach will change Shawn's game in the halfcourt sets... it seems like he might think of it since he'll be revamping the offense, 'post Marbs'. As always, I'm talking about putting Shawn to work on the baseline instead of loafing around on the perimeter all game long. It will also be feasible for him to expend more effort on the floor when Zarko is healthy and taking some of his minutes. I'd like to seem playing 35 minutes and working his butt off every minute he's out there. If he's ever going to be worth his salary he's got to become more of close in threat than he is now and I don't see him becoming a post up guy, which means the baseline is the only option.

 

[Joe Mama]

This is a smaller thing, but I would like to see Shawn Marion develop a decent shot fake to get his defenders in the air. Right now he hardly sells the shot before he tries to drive to the basket. Everybody and their mom knows when he is going to actually shoot, and when he is going to try to drive. He's extremely quick. That's for sure. I also think his ballhandling is underrated because everybody criticizes it so much. If he can just get his defenders a little bit off-balance he will blow right by them and create opportunities for himself and his teammates.

Joe Mama