Is Jeff Hornacek the right choice for the Suns?

[Mainstreet]

With the exception of golf and bowling, success in sports doesn't matter how effective you are. It is whether you play better than your opponent in close contact competition to varying degrees.

Jeff Hornacek was a pretty player at either Shooting Guard or Point Guard. But he was rarely the best Guard on the court. And he never led his teams to steady improvement through the long career to which you referred.

As a player, Horny was what he was. A good man on a small-market mentality team. And so he is proving to be as a Head Coach. Unfortunately, the best a fan can hope for is being entertained.

Sadly, that is the legacy of the Suns . . . and the Jazz. And the Mavs until Tyson Chandler led them to a Championship (with Nowitski giving him better support than the Suns have).

I'm not sure what you are saying BC. Hornacek had a nice career even making the NBA All-Star team one season. His best position was SG. I think most any NBA team would have liked to have him on their roster. If he has any failings as a head coach it is not because of his playing career or where he played.

 

[Phrazbit]

With the exception of golf and bowling, success in sports doesn't matter how effective you are. It is whether you play better than your opponent in close contact competition to varying degrees.

Jeff Hornacek was a pretty player at either Shooting Guard or Point Guard. But he was rarely the best Guard on the court. And he never led his teams to steady improvement through the long career to which you referred.

As a player, Horny was what he was. A good man on a small-market mentality team. And so he is proving to be as a Head Coach. Unfortunately, the best a fan can hope for is being entertained.

Sadly, that is the legacy of the Suns . . . and the Jazz. And the Mavs until Tyson Chandler led them to a Championship (with Nowitski giving him better support than the Suns have).

That is an absurd definition of success. By that measure Jordan was the only guy who was successful on a night to night basis.

Hornacek was not a tweener, nor was he not successful or effective. The guy was a very good player who carved out a very long, solid career. Does any of that equate to being a successful coach? No, its a totally different skill set, but this revisionism of Hornacek as a player is inane.

 

[Catlover]

With the exception of golf and bowling, success in sports doesn't matter how effective you are. It is whether you play better than your opponent in close contact competition to varying degrees.

Jeff Hornacek was a pretty player at either Shooting Guard or Point Guard. But he was rarely the best Guard on the court. And he never led his teams to steady improvement through the long career to which you referred.

As a player, Horny was what he was. A good man on a small-market mentality team. And so he is proving to be as a Head Coach. Unfortunately, the best a fan can hope for is being entertained.

Sadly, that is the legacy of the Suns . . . and the Jazz. And the Mavs until Tyson Chandler led them to a Championship (with Nowitski giving him better support than the Suns have).

Comments such as this leave me grasping for a response. I have a fair idea where to take the conversation if I see blue and you say it's green. But I'm thinking it's blue and you're saying it's octopus. I really don't know how in the world someone could say that Tyson led them to a championship and Dirk and the rest of the team just provided the support. From my point of view, you're speaking octopus.

 

[SirStefan32]

Yeah, I gotta disagree with you, BC. Jeff was a player who could actually play both positions well. To me, the difference between a tweener and a versatile player is that a tweener is really neither, and a versatile player can be both. Hornacek was a very effective shooting guard and a good point guard, which is actually very rare.

 

[Phrazbit]

Yeah... I somehow glossed over that part about Chandler leading the Mavs to a title while Dirk provided "support". A comment so disconnected from reality that if it was almost anyone else I'd say its sarcasm or trolling.

BC, you're a passionate fan, I'll give you that, but your knowledge of the current game and the way you're revising its history is just... loony.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Bc. I just struggle how to respond without being unkind. We just don't live in the same reality.

 

[jandaman]

With the exception of golf and bowling, success in sports doesn't matter how effective you are. It is whether you play better than your opponent in close contact competition to varying degrees.

Jeff Hornacek was a pretty player at either Shooting Guard or Point Guard. But he was rarely the best Guard on the court. And he never led his teams to steady improvement through the long career to which you referred.

As a player, Horny was what he was. A good man on a small-market mentality team. And so he is proving to be as a Head Coach. Unfortunately, the best a fan can hope for is being entertained.

Sadly, that is the legacy of the Suns . . . and the Jazz. And the Mavs until Tyson Chandler led them to a Championship (with Nowitski giving him better support than the Suns have).

Wow CHANDLER led Mavs to a ring now?

I recall Dirk Nowitski being unstoppable that year... he was scoring 30 points in his sleep. Yet Chandler LED the Mavs? Sarcasm?

 

[BC867]

Wow CHANDLER led Mavs to a ring now?

I recall Dirk Nowitski being unstoppable that year... he was scoring 30 points in his sleep. Yet Chandler LED the Mavs? Sarcasm?

Hey, guys, Dirk was a great player, but you can't dispute that Chandler made the difference for Dallas.

Dirk never led the Mavs to a Championship. Chandler did, with the same Dirk on the team, scoring 30 points in his sleep.

I don't see how any of my buddies here cannot see the difference.

I wish we had a Dirk in his prime. But he would not have brought a Championship to Phoenix any more at the Power Forward position than he did to Dallas. Or that Amar'e could (playing either Power Forward or Center, for that matter). Or that Chambers could.

 

[Phrazbit]

Hey, guys, Dirk was a great player, but you can't dispute that Chandler made the difference for Dallas.

Dirk never led the Mavs to a Championship. Chandler did, with the same Dirk on the team, scoring 30 points in his sleep.

I don't see how any of my buddies here cannot see the difference.

I wish we had a Dirk in his prime. But he would not have brought a Championship to Phoenix any more at the Power Forward position than he did to Dallas. Or that Amar'e could (playing either Power Forward or Center, for that matter). Or that Chambers could.

Because its an utterly laughable assertion. Its like saying because Jordan never won a title until Pippen was there that it was Pippen who led the Bulls to the titles. A guy helping put the team over the top as a contributing part is not "leading" them.

Furthermore, if you actually watched that series (which I'm sure you didn't) the next best player for Dallas, after Dirk, was Jason Terry, who absolutely destroyed Miami and made one huge play after another.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Hey, guys, Dirk was a great player, but you can't dispute that Chandler made the difference for Dallas.

Dirk never led the Mavs to a Championship. Chandler did, with the same Dirk on the team, scoring 30 points in his sleep.

I don't see how any of my buddies here cannot see the difference.

I wish we had a Dirk in his prime. But he would not have brought a Championship to Phoenix any more at the Power Forward position than he did to Dallas. Or that Amar'e could (playing either Power Forward or Center, for that matter). Or that Chambers could.

this is ludicrous. Dirk was the centerpiece of that team, and had taken a previous team without Chandler to the Finals. What the hell has Chandler ever done without Dirk? Chandler was the final piece of the puzzle, but to say he was the leader of that team is beyond reality in any way shape or form.

I mean, can you even say that you WATCHED the Mavs run? You admitted earlier this year that you don't watch basketball outside of the Suns, so I'm not even sure you're opinion is based on.

 

[BC867]

this is ludicrous. Dirk was the centerpiece of that team, and had taken a previous team without Chandler to the Finals. What the hell has Chandler ever done without Dirk? Chandler was the final piece of the puzzle, but to say he was the leader of that team is beyond reality in any way shape or form.

I mean, can you even say that you WATCHED the Mavs run? You admitted earlier this year that you don't watch basketball outside of the Suns, so I'm not even sure you're opinion is based on.

I said that Tyson Chandler was the difference maker in the Mav's championship. Your description is ironic -- the CENTER piece.

I didn't have to watch every Mav's game to be aware of that.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I said that Tyson Chandler was the difference maker in the Mav's championship. Your description is ironic -- the CENTER piece.

nothing ironic about it, because my description was the FINAL piece, not the Center piece. I know you don't watch games outside of the Suns (which makes ANY comment you make about the NBA completely without merit), but if you're going to comment on my post, I wish you'd at least read it before telling me what my description was.

I didn't have to watch every Mav's game to be aware of that.

to comment on something and actually be taken seriously... yes, you need to have watched the thing you're commenting about.

 

[BC867]

nothing ironic about it, because my description was the FINAL piece, not the Center piece. I know you don't watch games outside of the Suns (which makes ANY comment you make about the NBA completely without merit), but if you're going to comment on my post, I wish you'd at least read it before telling me what my description was.



to comment on something and actually be taken seriously... yes, you need to have watched the thing you're commenting about.

For you to mention Nowitski and Chandler in the same breath as Jordan and Pippin hardly addresses the opinion I gave.

And as far as discounting my opinion because I am a Suns fan, but not an NBA junkie, I am certainly aware of the rest of the teams in the league. And was quite aware that Dirk did not lead his team to a Championship, but that Chandler was the missing piece. Obviously!

You and I might actually be saying the same thing. Although on second thought, if Chandler had been removed from the Mavs championship team, they would not have won. With Chandler but without Nowitski, I believe they would have had a better chance.

A good Power Forward is easier to find than a good Center (in his prime). 'Just this fan's opinion.

 

[Phrazbit]

For you to mention Nowitski and Chandler in the same breath as Jordan and Pippin hardly addresses the opinion I gave.

And as far as discounting my opinion because I am a Suns fan, but not an NBA junkie, I am certainly aware of the rest of the teams in the league. And was quite aware that Dirk did not lead his team to a Championship, but that Chandler was the missing piece. Obviously!

You and I might actually be saying the same thing. Although on second thought, if Chandler had been removed from the Mavs championship team, they would not have won. With Chandler but without Nowitski, I believe they would have had a better chance.

A good Power Forward is easier to find than a good Center (in his prime). 'Just this fan's opinion.

For someone who gets so worked up about supposedly having their statements misquoted you're doing a lot of misquoting. It was I who brought up Pippen and Jordan, not Cheese and I brought them up not stating that the talent levels were equivilent to Chandler and Dirk but that the idea that Chandler "led" the Mavs to a title simply because they hadn't won before he got there would be similar to claiming Pippen "led" the Bulls.

As to your point about the Mavs having a better chance without Dirk than they would have without Chandler, it again displays an utter lack of any knowledge of the contemporary NBA. Dirk has been on SEVERAL title contenders, making the finals once and narrowly losing only a few years earlier. While much of Chanlder's career he has played for teams that struggled to even qualify for the playoffs.

I know you love to force things to fit your size over everything narrative but this is probably the most bonkers argument you've ever made and one that even Tyson Chandler would likely find to be a ridiculous proposition.

 

[Mainstreet]

I have always believed the Mavericks could have won another championship in the 2006 NBA Finals against the Heat if Steve Nash had been on that team to stabilize them.

 

[elindholm]

For someone who get's so worked up about supposidly having there statements misquoted your doing alot of misquoting.

BC, you shouldn't pass off Obama's words as your own without giving attribution. Also, BIM might be able to help you with your grammar.

 

[Phrazbit]

BC, you shouldn't pass off Obama's words as your own without giving attribution. Also, BIM might be able to help you with your grammar.

Took me second to figure out what happened here, probably had a couple spasms too.

5/5

I was about to say this will derail the thread... then I remembered we're talking about Chandler carrying the Mavs to a title in a thread about Jeff Hornacek... the tweener.

 

[Cheesebeef]

For you to mention Nowitski and Chandler in the same breath as Jordan and Pippin hardly addresses the opinion I gave.

Cheese and Rice! That wasn't me who mentioned Nowitski and Chandler. This is really hard to have conversations with you when a) you admit you're opinions aren't based on actually WATCHING the games and b) throwing ish out there to combat things that I NEVER SAID.

And as far as discounting my opinion because I am a Suns fan, but not an NBA junkie, I am certainly aware of the rest of the teams in the league.

how can you be aware of something you don't watch? Your opinion is discounted because there's no basis for the opinion to be formed.

And was quite aware that Dirk did not lead his team to a Championship, but that Chandler was the missing piece. Obviously!

You and I might actually be saying the same thing. Although on second thought, if Chandler had been removed from the Mavs championship team, they would not have won. With Chandler but without Nowitski, I believe they would have had a better chance.[/QUOTE]

holy crap... if you REALLY think with Chandler, but without Dirk, they would have had a better chance, I'd LOVE for you to answer the question I asked a while ago, that you completely ignored. We've seen DIRK lead a team to the Finals AND to the WCF without Chandler. Where has Chandler EVER lead a team ANYWHERE without Dirk?

That team WAS Dirk, with a bunch of very good supporting ROLE players. And anyone who actually WATCHED the games would know.

A good Power Forward is easier to find than a good Center (in his prime). 'Just this fan's opinion.

true, but a HOF Power Forward (in his prime) isn't easier to find then a solid C. And that's everyone's opinion... but yours.

 

[Catlover]

For you to mention Nowitski and Chandler in the same breath as Jordan and Pippin hardly addresses the opinion I gave.

And as far as discounting my opinion because I am a Suns fan, but not an NBA junkie, I am certainly aware of the rest of the teams in the league. And was quite aware that Dirk did not lead his team to a Championship, but that Chandler was the missing piece. Obviously!

You and I might actually be saying the same thing. Although on second thought, if Chandler had been removed from the Mavs championship team, they would not have won. With Chandler but without Nowitski, I believe they would have had a better chance.

A good Power Forward is easier to find than a good Center (in his prime). 'Just this fan's opinion.

No. Just no. They were probably 90% of a championship team without Chandler. And maybe, at most, 10% of a championship team without Dirk. Tyson was the missing piece but it was a very, very small piece. Without him they probably don't win it all. Without Dirk they're in the running for the number one draft pick.

 

[Mainstreet]

Dirk Nowitzki's career has been amazing thus far. I don't think, even with his accomplishments, he has been given enough credit.

NBA champion (2011)
NBA Finals MVP (2011)
NBA Most Valuable Player (2007)
13× NBA All-Star (2002–2012, 2014–2015)
4× All-NBA First Team (2005–2007, 2009)
5× All-NBA Second Team (2002–2003, 2008, 2010–2011)
3× All-NBA Third Team (2001, 2004, 2012)
50–40–90 club (2007)
NBA Three-Point Shootout champion (2006)
NBA Shooting Stars champion (2010)
Dallas Mavericks all-time leading scorer
FIBA World Cup MVP (2002)
FIBA EuroBasket MVP (2005)
6× Euroscar Player of the Year (2002–2006, 2011)
2× FIBA Europe Player of the Year (2005, 2011)
Mister Europa Player of the Year (2005)
Silbernes Lorbeerblatt (2011)
German Sports Personality of the Year (2011)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirk_Nowitzki

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/n/nowitdi01.html

 

[BC867]

BC, you shouldn't pass off Obama's words as your own without giving attribution. Also, BIM might be able to help you with your grammar.

I don't get your post. Please clarify. Obama? Grammar?

 

[sunsfan88]

I have always believed the Mavericks could have won another championship in the 2006 NBA Finals against the Heat if Steve Nash had been on that team to stabilize them.

Definitely. They could have probably won a couple if they had kept Nash.

 

[Mainstreet]

Definitely. They could have probably won a couple if they had kept Nash.

Too bad Nash could not have been on a championship team.

 

[sunsfan88]

https://twitter.com/bballbreakdown/status/678734021212377089

https://twitter.com/bballbreakdown/status/678734829987434496

 

[Ronin]

https://twitter.com/bballbreakdown/status/678734021212377089

https://twitter.com/bballbreakdown/status/678734829987434496

Ugh that is pretty sad. I wonder if the coach even cares anymore?


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