Is Kevin Kolb worth a first round pick?

[kerouac9]

Did you type that with a straight face?

Orton's QB rating was 5.4 points higher than Alex Smith's in 2010. Carson Palmer was 0.3 points higher. Both of them had legit offensive coaches working with them. Neither was in the mess that Alex Smith has had to deal with his entire career.

Anyone who thinks that Carson Palmer is still anything like a good QB hasn't watched him play in a while. He's awful.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

Anyone who thinks that Alex Smith is anything like a good QB hasn't watched him play in a while. He's awful.

Thought I'd fix that for you.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

Orton's QB rating was 5.4 points higher than Alex Smith's in 2010. Carson Palmer was 0.3 points higher. Both of them had legit offensive coaches working with them. Neither was in the mess that Alex Smith has had to deal with his entire career.

Anyone who thinks that Carson Palmer is still anything like a good QB hasn't watched him play in a while. He's awful.

Let's see Palmer has never thrown for less than 2890 yards and 18 TD's, except for the season he played 4 games and,other than his first year, never had a QB rating under 82. career comp % 62.9 with YPA of 7.1

Smith has never thrown for 3000 yards, never thrown for more than 18 TD's, and has had a passer rating above 82 once, 82.1 last year. career comp% 57.1 with a YPA of 6.2.

I'll go with the first guy.

Also Kolb's sample size is too small to make any judgement on what he's going to be. It's not like he's had 54 starts, like Smith, to show that he can't play.

 

[kerouac9]

Let's see Palmer has never thrown for less than 2890 yards and 18 TD's, except for the season he played 4 games and,other than his first year, never had a QB rating under 82. career comp % 62.9 with YPA of 7.1

Smith has never thrown for 3000 yards, never thrown for more than 18 TD's, and has had a passer rating above 82 once, 82.1 last year. career comp% 57.1 with a YPA of 6.2.

I'll go with the first guy.

Also Kolb's sample size is too small to make any judgement on what he's going to be. It's not like he's had 54 starts, like Smith, to show that he can't play.

But Smith has never played in more than 11 games per season, except for his second season, where he threw for 2890 yards. Project his last two seasons' per-game average over 16 games, and he averages over 3400 yards per season.

So you think that Carson Palmer is worth twice as much money or more, plus a third-round draft pick (or higher) than Alex Smith? Carson Palmer who hasn't averaged more than 7 YPA the last three seasons? A player who is clearly in decline? Did you watch Carson Palmer play last year?

I just don't get where you're saying Smith "can't play." Smith has been okay the last two years in a situation where it would be impossible for most quarterbacks to play well. He's kept his head down and his mouth shut and tried to compete while the franchise was crumbling around him, and took less money the last two years to try and turn around the investment the team had made in him.

It's funny that you can't make an argument that Alex Smith "stinks," because even you understand that there is no evidence to support that position.

 

[Cheesebeef]

It's funny that you can't make an argument that Alex Smith "stinks," because even you understand that there is no evidence to support that position.

a number one pick getting two head coaches fired, every offensive coordinator he's ever played for fired, being benched numerous times even though continually handed the number 1 job and now, it seems like his team who's quarterback starved wants nothing to do with him is pretty damning evidence that he stinks... but that's just me.

 

[kerouac9]

a number one pick getting two head coaches fired, every offensive coordinator he's ever played for fired, being benched numerous times even though continually handed the number 1 job and now, it seems like his team who's quarterback starved wants nothing to do with him is pretty damning evidence that he stinks... but that's just me.

Ah... more lies and half-truths brought to you by cheesie. Should've known that once someone starts playing fast and loose with the facts that you'd show up to jump in.

2005 - Mike McCarthy is offensive coordinator. He is signed as head coach of the Green Bay Packers following the season.

2006 - Norv Turner is hired as offensive coordinator. Smith completes nearly 60% of his passes for nearly 3000 yards and his QB rating jumps 34 point. He his signed as head coach of the San Diego Chargers following the season. San Francisco improves from 4-12 to 7-9.

2007 - The 49ers promote QB coach Jeff Hostler to the offensive coordinator position after Turner defects to San Diego. During Hostler's one-year stint in the position, Frank Gore goes on record saying the team doesn't trust the playcalling. Hostler is fired following the season.

2008 - Mike Martz comes in as offensive coordinator and names his boy J.T. O'Sullivan, whom he'd brought with him from Detroit, the starting QB. Alex Smith goes on IR in September with a broken bone in his shoulder. Martz is fired at the end of the season.

2009 - Insane person Mike Singletary's "interim" head coaching tag is removed. He fired Martz two days later. Scott Linehan is offered the offensive coordinator position but declines. Singletary eventually hires Jimmy Raye, who hasn't successfully coordinated an offense since Ronald Reagan was in office. Smith wins the starting job from Shaun Hill in Week 7.

2010 - Jimmy Raye's offense (predictably) continues to falter, but Smith strings together quality starts until Mike Singletary decides that the offense needs a spark and puts in a guy who didn't even go to training camp with the 49ers in Troy Smith. Alex Smith's teammates surround Singletary the first time he makes the decision and convinced Samurai Mike to put Alex Smith back in the game. The 49ers offense immediately goes into the tank with Troy Smith, again showing signs of life when Alex Smith returns to the starting job.

And it certainly sounds like John Harbaugh (you know, the quarterback guru) is interested in keeping Alex Smith around:

During a fan forum Tuesday night, Jim Harbaugh took note that one of his questioners liked quarterback Alex Smith.

"I agree," Harbaugh said. "I like him very much, too."

It marked the latest indication that the 49ers will consider bringing back their incumbent quarterback for a seventh season. Smith is eligible for free agency once the NFL labor situation is resolved and Harbaugh on several occasions has declined to close the door on Smith's return.

When asked Tuesday whether the former No. 1 pick was still in the picture for 2011, the coach replied: "Yes, Alex Smith is definitely in it."

But, you know, if you're more comfortable jumping into a debate to throw some fact-free grenades, you go ahead and do so.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

Ah... more lies and half-truths brought to you by cheesie. Should've known that once someone starts playing fast and loose with the facts that you'd show up to jump in.

2005 - Mike McCarthy is offensive coordinator. He is signed as head coach of the Green Bay Packers following the season.

2006 - Norv Turner is hired as offensive coordinator. Smith completes nearly 60% of his passes for nearly 3000 yards and his QB rating jumps 34 point. He his signed as head coach of the San Diego Chargers following the season. San Francisco improves from 4-12 to 7-9.

2007 - The 49ers promote QB coach Jeff Hostler to the offensive coordinator position after Turner defects to San Diego. During Hostler's one-year stint in the position, Frank Gore goes on record saying the team doesn't trust the playcalling. Hostler is fired following the season.

2008 - Mike Martz comes in as offensive coordinator and names his boy J.T. O'Sullivan, whom he'd brought with him from Detroit, the starting QB. Alex Smith goes on IR in September with a broken bone in his shoulder. Martz is fired at the end of the season.

2009 - Insane person Mike Singletary's "interim" head coaching tag is removed. He fired Martz two days later. Scott Linehan is offered the offensive coordinator position but declines. Singletary eventually hires Jimmy Raye, who hasn't successfully coordinated an offense since Ronald Reagan was in office. Smith wins the starting job from Shaun Hill in Week 7.

2010 - Jimmy Raye's offense (predictably) continues to falter, but Smith strings together quality starts until Mike Singletary decides that the offense needs a spark and puts in a guy who didn't even go to training camp with the 49ers in Troy Smith. Alex Smith's teammates surround Singletary the first time he makes the decision and convinced Samurai Mike to put Alex Smith back in the game. The 49ers offense immediately goes into the tank with Troy Smith, again showing signs of life when Alex Smith returns to the starting job.

And it certainly sounds like John Harbaugh (you know, the quarterback guru) is interested in keeping Alex Smith around:



But, you know, if you're more comfortable jumping into a debate to throw some fact-free grenades, you go ahead and do so.

so he's had 4,what many consider top level, OC's in McCarthy, Turner, Linehan, and Martz and he still's not any good. It's funny, you use a lot of almosts and nearly's when describing Smith. One of these days he may almost become a good QB, I doubt it. Then you're using your eye test to downgrade Palmer by saying have you seen him play? But when we use our eye test, having seen Smith play, you try to throw out these weak facts about something Frank Gore said 4 years ago as justificiation for why he has stunk up the place. I backed up Palmer's play with stats, winning records, and playoff appearances. His worst years is better than Smith's best. I've seen both guys play and there is no question as to who the better QB is and it's not even close.
To put it in more perspective, Alex Smith's career passer rating is 72.1, or .8 better than the 71.3 that Josh McCown put up for his career. But, I always thought McCown was better than Palmer too .

 

[kerouac9]

so he's had 4,what many consider top level, OC's in McCarthy, Turner, Linehan, and Martz and he still's not any good. It's funny, you use a lot of almosts and nearly's when describing Smith. One of these days he may almost become a good QB, I doubt it. Then you're using your eye test to downgrade Palmer by saying have you seen him play? But when we use our eye test, having seen Smith play, you try to throw out these weak facts about something Frank Gore said 4 years ago as justificiation for why he has stunk up the place. I backed up Palmer's play with stats, winning records, and playoff appearances. His worst years is better than Smith's best. I've seen both guys play and there is no question as to who the better QB is and it's not even close.
To put it in more perspective, Alex Smith's career passer rating is 72.1, or .8 better than the 71.3 that Josh McCown put up for his career. But, I always thought McCown was better than Palmer too .

That's all well and good, CBus, but it's Smith's terrible, horrible rookie season that drags down everything else in his career. Alex Smith's rookie QB rating was 40.8. Every year that he's played save one he's gotten better as a quarterback. Carson Palmer's play has declined each of the last three seasons.

So what you're saying is that you'd rather pay more money and draft picks for a player clearly in decline than pay less money and no draft picks for a player who's clearly getting better. That's you're argument? Are you sure that's what you want to run with?

EDIT: Having seen Smith play, my eyeball test tells me that he's the best quarterback available for the best price. I think you could get Alex Smith for 3 years, $15 million with $10 million guaranteed. Is that more than Marc Bulger would cost? Sure. But it's $3 million less than you'll pay for Carson Palmer in 2011, plus a draft pick. Would the Arizona Cardinals with their shotgun offense be significantly better with Alex Smith under center in 2011 than they would with Marc Bulger or John Skelton? I'm certain that's the case.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

So what you're saying is that you'd rather pay more money and draft picks for a player clearly in decline than pay less money and no draft picks for a player who's clearly getting better. That's you're argument? Are you sure that's what you want to run with?

Yes that's my argument. I would rather pay more for Carson Palmer than have anything to do with Alex Smith.I'm of the opinion that a change of scenery does Palmer wonders and revitalizes his career. Palmer has been playing against much tougher defenses, had head cases for WR's, and has played at an elite level in the not too distant past. In a "down" year he still threw for about 4000 yards and 26 TD's. I know he threw 20 ints but there were reports of WR's running the wrong routes on many occasions. I'm not giving Palmer a complete pass on the int's but that could have been a factor. His best 2 games were when 85 and TO were out. I don't think that is a coincidence at all. I think if you put Palmer in Arizona and team him with Fitz in the NFC West, the Cards dominate the division for the next 3-5 years. Smith has not put up a winning record once playing in a weak NFC west and, while the Cards will be better off than they were last year with him at QB, I don't think he would put them over the top like I think Palmer would.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

I guess we just disagree. I think Smith is no good and you think you see something in him. Knowing Graves it's a moot point and we'll end with a Brodie Croyle anyway.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Ah... more lies and half-truths brought to you by cheesie. Should've known that once someone starts playing fast and loose with the facts that you'd show up to jump in.

2005 - Mike McCarthy is offensive coordinator. He is signed as head coach of the Green Bay Packers following the season.

2006 - Norv Turner is hired as offensive coordinator. Smith completes nearly 60% of his passes for nearly 3000 yards and his QB rating jumps 34 point. He his signed as head coach of the San Diego Chargers following the season. San Francisco improves from 4-12 to 7-9.

2007 - The 49ers promote QB coach Jeff Hostler to the offensive coordinator position after Turner defects to San Diego. During Hostler's one-year stint in the position, Frank Gore goes on record saying the team doesn't trust the playcalling. Hostler is fired following the season.

2008 - Mike Martz comes in as offensive coordinator and names his boy J.T. O'Sullivan, whom he'd brought with him from Detroit, the starting QB. Alex Smith goes on IR in September with a broken bone in his shoulder. Martz is fired at the end of the season.

2009 - Insane person Mike Singletary's "interim" head coaching tag is removed. He fired Martz two days later. Scott Linehan is offered the offensive coordinator position but declines. Singletary eventually hires Jimmy Raye, who hasn't successfully coordinated an offense since Ronald Reagan was in office. Smith wins the starting job from Shaun Hill in Week 7.

2010 - Jimmy Raye's offense (predictably) continues to falter, but Smith strings together quality starts until Mike Singletary decides that the offense needs a spark and puts in a guy who didn't even go to training camp with the 49ers in Troy Smith. Alex Smith's teammates surround Singletary the first time he makes the decision and convinced Samurai Mike to put Alex Smith back in the game. The 49ers offense immediately goes into the tank with Troy Smith, again showing signs of life when Alex Smith returns to the starting job.

And it certainly sounds like John Harbaugh (you know, the quarterback guru) is interested in keeping Alex Smith around:



But, you know, if you're more comfortable jumping into a debate to throw some fact-free grenades, you go ahead and do so.

so, he got two head coaches fired and three of five offensive coordinators fired. bottom line... as a number one pick, being a guy who's there to see 2 HC coaches fired, three offensive coordinators fired, never once leading the team to even a .500 record is pretty damning evidence as far as i'm concerned.

and I don't buy Harbaugh's coach speak for a second. could be proved wrong there though. but i doubt it.

but hey, if you want to personally attack me as a liar because remembered incorrectly that it was a total of 5 of 7 HC/OCs who he got fired instead of 7/7, well, that's your perogative. not sure it's necessary, didn't think I attacked you. just thought why i thought the guy sucked. was wrong on a couple details. excuse me for trying to throw my two cents in without being attacked.

 

[conraddobler]

There are situations that are so bad no player is going to shine through.

I don't think people like us are apt to spot this but guys like Harbaugh could, and he would look at it objectively.

Anyone with enough knowledge about a given skill set, like a former pro QB who's a proven head coach could in theory see something despite a situation that would make him completely comfortable with someone we'd think he was nuts for supporting.

So that entire line of thought is possible to me, but I have no idea if that's what's going on or if he's just giving typical coach speak, guess we'll find out.

The only thing I know for reasonably sure is that our days of living large in a division with crappy coaches suffered a really hard body blow when Harbaugh showed up in Frisco.

We're rightly screwed, cause I'm pretty sure he knows what he's doing and is not crazed or stupid or incompetent, we'll see I guess.