Is MJ right?

[BC867]

But arguing with facts has never lead far here.

You've apparently found the one place on the planet where facts have no value. You poor man, how hard this must be for you.

Steve, far be it from me to stick up for Slin, but you may have read his comment incorrectly. He wasn't referring to arguing AGAINST facts. He was referring to arguing by USING facts.

If his premise, "Yet during Jordans era espcially the first half of his era, defense was infinitely worse than what it is today.", is accurate.

Correct me if I misinterpreted either post.

 

[desertdawg]

I'm just blown away by the results of this poll. Who would dunk on a handicapped pregnant lady if there was a ring in it for him? We know Jordan would, Lebron just isn't that guy. Skilled as hell but he's a softie in nature, must have grown up with too many nice positive people, a Disney kid if you will, no ramen noodles or hand me downs. Kobe is the only cat I've ever seen since Jordan that even compares, some guys have good years and all but Kobe over Lebron all day if I'm setting up a team. Lebron is just too nice to be put in the best ever category. He aint got the death blow in him.

 

[95pro]

Lebron had stepped up his 4th qtr shooting though desertdawg. I'm not saying that puts him over kobe yet. But he really came around last season and this season. The first year lebron wade and bosh came together he was still lacking that 4th qtr killer instinct. I think he's getting there but no quite Kobe or MJ yet.

 

[Phrazbit]

I dont care about a death blow ability. I've seen LeBron make the finals with one of the worst supporting casts in the league. In the same situation we saw Kobe miss the playoffs entirely. LeBron is, in my opinion, a far better player than Kobe ever was.

And Jordan was better than both. A shooting guard who for his career averaged 30 a game on 50% shooting? Its insane. Possible the best wing defender ever, the best wing scorer ever, a gifted passer and rebounder for his position (averaged 32-8-8 one year... with 3 steals and on 54% shooting).

Jordan was inhuman.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Steve, far be it from me to stick up for Slin, but you may have read his comment incorrectly. He wasn't referring to arguing AGAINST facts. He was referring to arguing by USING facts.

If his premise, "Yet during Jordans era espcially the first half of his era, defense was infinitely worse than what it is today.", is accurate.

Correct me if I misinterpreted either post.

Well, perhaps I misunderstood him but I'm pretty sure he was suggesting that, unlike the rest of us, he deals in facts.

BTW, I'm not even in complete disagreement with him on this argument. Defense wasn't "infinitely worse" as he stated but there is clearly a greater focus on defense right now than there was during much of Jordan's career. However, it's also true that the rules and the interpretation of those rules have changed to benefit the wing player. MJ would have had a field day in today's game IMO.

Steve

 

[desertdawg]

Lebron had stepped up his 4th qtr shooting though desertdawg. I'm not saying that puts him over kobe yet. But he really came around last season and this season. The first year lebron wade and bosh came together he was still lacking that 4th qtr killer instinct. I think he's getting there but no quite Kobe or MJ yet.

It's like Wesley Snipes compared to Tyler Perry to me, when Tyler Perry tried to play a tough guy roll in that recent flick it just didn't work. That's like Lebron to me, when he wins, it's not some tough, test of heart battle...it's a fun for the whole family type of thing. I'd also put Carmello and Wade over Lebron when it comes to heart, but that's just me. Ask me who the most gifted athelete is and I'll go Lebron, but when manhood is on the line I think all those comfortable cushy B-ball camps and schools bronbron went to did him wonders in some areas, but left him lacking in others.

 

[Gee!]

Kobe lets his emotions affect his play.. When things aren't going his way, he pouts and it comes out in his play.. Kobe needs an all star cast to win it all.. LBJ took the Cavs with nobody's to the Finals.. Kobe came in the league as a rookie with a team ready to win it all.. I don't wanna hear about his rings.. When its all said and done LBJ will be number two all time right behind Jordan..

And I don't care what Jordan says when evaluating players.. When know what he is capable of as a GM/owner.. He is lousy..

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

It's like Wesley Snipes compared to Tyler Perry to me, when Tyler Perry tried to play a tough guy roll in that recent flick it just didn't work. That's like Lebron to me, when he wins, it's not some tough, test of heart battle...it's a fun for the whole family type of thing. I'd also put Carmello and Wade over Lebron when it comes to heart, but that's just me. Ask me who the most gifted athelete is and I'll go Lebron, but when manhood is on the line I think all those comfortable cushy B-ball camps and schools bronbron went to did him wonders in some areas, but left him lacking in others.

You have to be kidding me..

So because Kobe is so selfish that he wants to take the final shot regardless of whether it's a good look or not means that he has more heart than LeBron?

Also Kobe shouldn't even be mentioned in the same breath as MJ when it comes to making clutch shots. Kobe has those moments because of the large number of shots he has taken at the end of games. MJ may have had fewer game winning shots, but that is simply because his teams weren't in the position as often. Mj made a much higher percentage of clutch shot attempts.

Actually up until the 2011 season Kobe had only made 31% of his clutch shot attempts and that ranks 25th amongst players with at least 30 such attempts during the same time period. Melo and Paul rank 1st and 2nd on that list. Lebron is tied for 17th on this list at 33.3%.

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/24200/the-truth-about-kobe-bryant-in-crunch-time

 

[Phrazbit]

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/24200/the-truth-about-kobe-bryant-in-crunch-time

http://www.libertyballers.com/2012/...t-dwyane-wade-clutch-nba-playoffs-4th-quarter

Again, Kobe is NOT clutch. People remember the makes but they chose to forget the ugly misses on bad shots that make up the majority of his clutch shots.

Among the players who have much better clutch time stats than Kobe... LeBron James.

 

[slinslin]

And Jordan was better than both. A shooting guard who for his career averaged 30 a game on 50% shooting? Its insane. Possible the best wing defender ever, the best wing scorer ever, a gifted passer and rebounder for his position (averaged 32-8-8 one year... with 3 steals and on 54% shooting).

Jordan was inhuman.

Lebron has a higher TS% and eFG% and probably a higher scoring average if you adjust to pace. Lebron also has better defensive rating and is imo just a better defender.

Jordan did 32/8/8 at 97 possesions per game in the 80s, Lebron 30/7/8 at just 90.

 

[Cheesebeef]

It's like Wesley Snipes compared to Tyler Perry to me, when Tyler Perry tried to play a tough guy roll in that recent flick it just didn't work. That's like Lebron to me, when he wins, it's not some tough, test of heart battle...it's a fun for the whole family type of thing. I'd also put Carmello and Wade over Lebron when it comes to heart, but that's just me. Ask me who the most gifted athelete is and I'll go Lebron, but when manhood is on the line I think all those comfortable cushy B-ball camps and schools bronbron went to did him wonders in some areas, but left him lacking in others.

i would have said the same thing until I saw that same guy who I banged on for a long time just put that Miami team on his shoulders and carry their asses to a title last year. The performance Bron put on in those last two series of the ECF, with Bosh out for half of them were straight up disgusting. 33 ppg, 11 reb, 5 asst. being down in both series and having huge games of 40/18/9 (when down 2-1) and 45/15/5 (when down 3-2). And then averaging 28/10/7.5 in the Finals? Come on man. The guy went Tyler Perry plus Wesley Snipes last year in the playoffs... and this year he's been even better.

 

[Shane]

LJ is no MJ. Never has been never will be. Anyone that thinks so clearly didn't watch Jordan play.

 

[Phrazbit]

Lebron has a higher TS% and eFG% and probably a higher scoring average if you adjust to pace. Lebron also has better defensive rating and is imo just a better defender.

Jordan did 32/8/8 at 97 possesions per game in the 80s, Lebron 30/7/8 at just 90.

Yes, and LeBron also plays in an era where a young Jordan would have gotten to the rim at will and led the league in free throw attempts. You can only judge players by the era they were in (and Jordan actually dominated in 2 eras, the high scoring faced paced 80s and the slowed down bruising 90s).

 

[JCSunsfan]

LJ is no MJ. Never has been never will be. Anyone that thinks so clearly didn't watch Jordan play.

Nope. He is a different player. He makes others around him better than MJ did. LeBron has a more Magic in him than MJ did.

He has a chance to be the best ever.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Yes, and LeBron also plays in an era where a young Jordan would have gotten to the rim at will and led the league in free throw attempts. You can only judge players by the era they were in (and Jordan actually dominated in 2 eras, the high scoring faced paced 80s and the slowed down bruising 90s).

I agree with you about eras and I look at it this way. All you can do is enter the argument for greatest player ever, you can't actually become the greatest player ever. MJ has entered that argument along with Kareem, Russell, Wilt, Magic, Oscar and maybe a couple of others. I don't think Kobe makes it into the argument, neither does Lebron but he still has a lot of years left and I think he'll get there.

Steve

 

[Phrazbit]

Yup. Its impossible to project how someone would have done in one era vs another. Would LeBron have his freakish physique had he grown up in the 70s without all the modern training techniques? Had Jordan as a role model not come before him would LeBron have even developed the same way or would he have been dumped in the post from day 1?

To say LeBron would have destroyed in the 80s or Babe Ruth wouldnt have been able to hit .200 today is as silly as saying Norman Schwarzkopf was a greater military mind than Napoleon because Norman had stealth bombers.

 

[desertdawg]

Nope. He is a different player. He makes others around him better than MJ did. LeBron has a more Magic in him than MJ did.

He has a chance to be the best ever.

Jordan won without the talented team-mates that bronbron needed to get the ring. Jordan had Pippen and that was pretty much it.

Just because Lebron finally got a ring last year doesn't put him up there with the best ever. Dirk gotta ring too and did it with less talent around him. Lebron has all the physical tools and talent, but he will never posess the mental toughness that Jordan had....ever. Bronbron couldn't wash Jordans skippys.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Jordan won without the talented team-mates that bronbron needed to get the ring. Jordan had Pippen and that was pretty much it.

uh... Jordan had Pippen and that was pretty much it? a) Pippen was one of the best players of all time, right in his prime b) He had Dennis Rodman who's an HOFer c) He had Kukoc who was a Sixth Man of the Year d) he had Kerr was the best 3 point shooter of all time and e) he had the best Coach in the history of the game.

And on Jordan's first team that won the title, he had Pippen who was even more in his prime, Horace Grant who was double double machine, Paxson who was one of the greatest clutch shooters ever... and... oh yeah... the greatest coach of all time.

That's not to say LeBron is playing with a bunch of paupers. Far from it. Bosh is a good player and Wade is a very good player, but he's not in his prime anymore and has been worn down for the last couple years with the beating he took previously in his career. And there's no point in even comparing Spoelstra to Phil Jackson. As to everyone else on that Heat team... it's a bunch of broken down, old guys that LeBron carries A LOT.

Just because Lebron finally got a ring last year doesn't put him up there with the best ever. Dirk gotta ring too and did it with less talent around him. Lebron has all the physical tools and talent, but he will never posess the mental toughness that Jordan had....ever. Bronbron couldn't wash Jordans skippys.

all the above being said, I do agree that he doesn't have Jordan's mental toughness... but I don't think there's another player who's ever played ANY game that has. I look at Bron more like Magic on roids... another guy who people were saying wasn't clutch at some point in his career. Magic eventually shut those people up and I think Bron is well on his way to doing the same.

 

[desertdawg]

Kobe just ate up bronbron, heckling him like a carnie to entice the one on one play, rejected bronbron's weak sauce twice in a row whlie saying "come on mutha ^$5@". Ghostface killa vs Tyler Perry yall, baby bron was shying away from the match up, didn't want none. I think Kobe heard all about the Jordan bomb, and he wanted folks to know the truth. He can make bronbron his beehazzle anytime he wants to, because he is mean enough to do it.

 

[Phrazbit]

Kobe just ate up bronbron, heckling him like a carnie to entice the one on one play, rejected bronbron's weak sauce twice in a row whlie saying "come on mutha ^$5@". Ghostface killa vs Tyler Perry yall, baby bron was shying away from the match up, didn't want none. I think Kobe heard all about the Jordan bomb, and he wanted folks to know the truth. He can make bronbron his beehazzle anytime he wants to, because he is mean enough to do it.

You mean on that play where be "blocked" LeBron... while blatantly fouling him for a good 7 seconds straight as he grabbed LeBron around the arm and held for deal life?... and then the possession ending with LeBron getting to the rim again and Kobe again having to foul but this time the refs calling it.

LeBron has eaten Kobe alive in their head to head play over their careers. A 13-6 record against Kobe with most of those wins coming with a supporting cast of Boobie Gibson, Z's shattered ankle and the immortal Sasha Palovic. Kobe had a various assortment of all-star bigs.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=jamesle01&p2=bryanko01

 

[Cheesebeef]

Kobe just ate up bronbron, heckling him like a carnie to entice the one on one play, rejected bronbron's weak sauce twice in a row whlie saying "come on mutha ^$5@". Ghostface killa vs Tyler Perry yall, baby bron was shying away from the match up, didn't want none. I think Kobe heard all about the Jordan bomb, and he wanted folks to know the truth. He can make bronbron his beehazzle anytime he wants to, because he is mean enough to do it.

Really? Of Kobe can make Bron his "beehazzle" anytime
He wants, how come Bron has taken a dump in Kobe's face, complete with corn and peanuts in their last five of six games where the games
Actually counted in the regular season? I mean... Did u watch the two games
They played against each other this year?!

 

[95pro]

lebron took the cavs to the finals in a weak eastern conference. still is weak but not as bad as as before.

 

[elindholm]

Really? Of Kobe can make Bron his "beehazzle" anytime
He wants, how come Bron has taken a dump in Kobe's face, complete with corn and peanuts in their last five of six games where the games
Actually counted in the regular season? I mean... Did u watch the two games
They played against each other this year?!

Is this a poem? I'm trying to understand the weird line breaks.

 

[TJ]

Kobe just ate up bronbron, heckling him like a carnie to entice the one on one play, rejected bronbron's weak sauce twice in a row whlie saying "come on mutha ^$5@". Ghostface killa vs Tyler Perry yall, baby bron was shying away from the match up, didn't want none. I think Kobe heard all about the Jordan bomb, and he wanted folks to know the truth. He can make bronbron his beehazzle anytime he wants to, because he is mean enough to do it.

Then Kobe needs to get a move on and prove it, because head-to-head, Lebron has torched Kobe to the tune of 3:1. Nobody gives a **** about a meaningless All-star game, except for Lebron haters and Kobe jock carriers.

At any rate, the better of the two is Lebron, and IMO, the margin is wider than most are willing to admit.

If Lebron played exclusively point guard, he'd be the best point guard in the league because of his ability to find the open man and run the entire offense through him.

If Lebron played exclusively 2-guard, he'd be the best 2-guard in the league because he can shoot from anywhere on the court and drive on any player in the league with no remorse.

Lebron is already the best 3 in the league.

If Lebron played exclusively power forward, he'd be the best in the league because he can post anyone up and rebound over taller players.

In addition to which, Lebron is the only player in the NBA that can guard all five positions at an elite level.

Kobe's strengths are limited to that of the natural 2-guard position, which is volume scoring. He's only now demonstrated the ability to pass, but at the expense of his ability to score. Lebron has always been able to pass the ball and score without taking away from the other skill set. The only tangible skill Kobe bests Lebron at is free throw shooting. Other than that, across the board, Lebron is, has, and always will be the more efficient player of the two.

BTW - interesting stat. In Lebron's last season with Cleveland, the team won 61 games. In the 2 1/2 seasons Lebron has been away, the team has only won 55 total games.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Is this a poem? I'm trying to understand the weird line breaks.

haha... it was typed on an iphone.