Is MJ right?

[Lorenzo]

If that's what he said it's no wonder his team's suck. The Duncan and Dirk that are active now would not be elite in MJ's day. Duncan and Dirk in their prime would be but they are shadows now. Maybe Dirk gets back there but I doubt it, no way Duncan does. Also, Westbrook, Durant and Paul would all be elite players 20 years ago.

Steve

I don't think MJ is simply focusing on Tim Duncan and Dirk's age today. I think he is looking at the fact that they have dominated the NBA for about 10 years or so. He goes on to say that many of the young stars today are soft mentally. I think the four players he mentioned are certainly talented as well, but have the type of toughness(mentally) that it takes to be great. certainly I agree with you that more players could be added to the list. I wouldn't be so quick to just throw names out there though because guys show talent. being talented is great, but having the mental toughness that it takes to be legendary is completely different. If you notice the 4 players that he mentioned are really unlike any player that ever played in the game before.

 

[Lorenzo]

Oh please... Jordan had Pippen and Rodman among others, Pippen alone is a much better 2nd star than even Wade.
The argument of Lebron leaving Cleveland is totally moot Rodman > Bosh, Pippen > Wade.

You think Jordan would have won in Cleveland with a gimpy Ilgauskas as the best teammate he ever has?

MJ is full of it if he thinks only those 4 players would be elite in his day. In his 80s time when pace was on average higher than the fastest teams now. No defense was played and the league overall was no on the athletic level it is now.

Lebron > MJ, only argument for MJ are rings really and that is a total bogus argument when comparing individual players. Individually Lebron is a better and more versatile player than MJ.

Wade is a finals mvp and just over a year ago people were calling miami his team and that he was the closer. now you are back tracking....trying to say rodman and pippen are so great. LOL. pippen was a great player don't get me wrong. but he's no finals MVP. lebron gave up on cleveland and not just once, but twice if you look at how it acted against boston. period. you can justify it all you want. but it is true. he is not the alpha male that jordan is and never will be. that is the difference. Jordan may not be as versatile or as talented. but he has more mental toughness than lebron will ever have. and that's all that counts when you are splitting hairs about who is the more talented player...

Hell lebron's too scared to enter the NBA scrub dunk contest in fear of losing to some normal dude.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Wade is a finals mvp and just over a year ago people were calling miami his team and that he was the closer. now you are back tracking....trying to say rodman and pippen are so great. LOL. pippen was a great player don't get me wrong. but he's no finals MVP. lebron gave up on cleveland and not just once, but twice if you look at how it acted against boston. period. you can justify it all you want. but it is true. he is not the alpha male that jordan is and never will be. that is the difference. Jordan may not be as versatile or as talented. but he has more mental toughness than lebron will ever have. and that's all that counts when you are splitting hairs about who is the more talented player...

Hell lebron's too scared to enter the NBA scrub dunk contest in fear of losing to some normal dude.

Nah, you're letting your Lebron hate color your thinking. I don't think he's scared to participate in the NBA slam dunk contest, he's too egotistical and butt-hurt to do it. He was left off the team his first year and wants to do whatever suits him best when it comes to this stuff, he feels he owes them nothing since they slighted him as a rookie.

And, why is mental toughness the only thing that counts when comparing great players? There is absolutely no doubt that MJ is a more mentally tough player than Lebron but so are a thousand other players that have laced them up in the NBA.

Lebron does so many thing well on the court, it's unfair to disregard them simply because he isn't the one-on-one player that Kobe was or the mentally tough player that MJ was. MJ had the far superior career but right now, each in their prime, I'm not sure which player impacts the game more. It's a legitimate argument. I come down on MJ's side but it isn't a slam dunk like it would have been two years ago.

Steve

 

[Cheesebeef]

The greatest statistical seasons Jordan had were all before Mutombo was even drafted.

Also Olajuwon and Shaq's career only really overlapped for 2 years for example before Olajuwon was a wreck.

The point is that Chris Sanders just randomly brought up a set of players to represent an era that were not even in the same era.

Laimbeer retired in 94. His best season while Mutombo, Shaq and Mourning were in the league was 9ppg/5rpg.

And in any way those centers that apparently Jordan had to face were no better than Duncan, Shaq, Yao, Garnett, Dwight, Wallace, Gasol and so on.

lol... now Wallace and Garnett are CENTERS? Yeah... and Magic Johnson was a PF.

 

[Gee!]

Some of the 90's best defenders.. Regardless of position.. And players that gave fits to Jordan at one point or another.. Which he overcame..

Dennis Rodman
Joe Dumars
Charles Oakley
Xavier McDaniel
Kevin McHale

 

[Gee!]

This is an awesome display of how Jordan attacked defenses.. ANd dont forget he was the best defender in the NBA at one time too..

 

[Chris_Sanders]

It is like every day you find new and interesting ways to destroy your credibility.

Clearly it is a new day Slin.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

It was not. Try to be objective for once instead of making arguments based on your subjective feelings.

Average league scoring in 1982 -> 108.6ppg
Average league scoring in 1992 -> 105.3ppg
Average league scoring in 2002 -> 95.1ppg
Average league scoring in 2012 -> 97.8ppg

FG% was higher by about 3-4% too (so much for it being harder to score in the paint) , 3pt% was lower, FT% about the same.

Pace was astronomically faster than it is today or during the last 10 years.

Everything contradicts your statements.

Just in general NBA statistics from the 80s and early 90s are overexaggerated.

This isn't causality. X doesn't equal Y.

You are correct that the pace of the game is faster. In fact, possessions per game are way up and FG percentage is down. That isn't a sign of better defense. That means people are taking faster shots and trading that for better shots.

It is an asinine as saying that seven seconds or less meant that any team that played against them was suddenly worse defensively because PPG went up.

I could flip those same statistics and say "Well the talent level is worse than it was in the 80s and 90s, which is why people can't score despite about 10 more possessions per game"

 

[Chris_Sanders]

LOL!

1. Shaquille O'Neal is not part of that era, neither is Mutombo(drafted in 1991) or Alonzo Mourning really. Anyway are we talking about the same Alonzo Mourning that was barely 6'10 and usually got his ass kicked by Luc Longley?
2. Tim Duncan is better than everyone you mentioned.
3. Dwight Howard is a much better defender than someone like Patrick Ewing.
4. Shaq played in the modern era.
5. Don't make it sound like Bill Laimbeer would be anything special in this era. He is no better than Joakim Noah, Bogut, Chandler etc and not even close to say Ben Wallace. Laimbeer was basically a 10/10 guy with about 1 block per game.
6. Kevin Garnett is every bit as good a defender as David Robinson and pretty much the same size.

Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett, Shaquille O'Neal, Dwight Howard, Yao Ming, Ben Wallace >>>>>>>> Olajuwon, Robinson, Ewing, Laimbeer, Mutombo

#1. Micheal Jordan played from 1984 to 2003. He won his first title in 1991 (Mutombo) and his last in 1998. During the times you list when Jordan wasn't part of that "Era", Jordan won 6 titles, was MVP 5 times, and was 1st team all defense 5 times.


#2. Duncan played when Jordan played.

When Jordan won his last title, Duncan was a rookie who averaged 21 and 12.

When Lebron won his title, Duncan was 17 and 9.

In fact, Duncan's best years came when Jordan played.

#3. Source: Basketball reference.com

The difference between Ewing and Howard's defensive rating is .9. Ewing is 20th all time on defenders. Howard is 17th. Ewing was in the top 3 in the league 6 times, Howard 5 times. This is basically a draw and a poor point.

#4. Shaq came into the league when Jordan won his first title in 1992. They played together for 9 years, excluding the 2 years that Jordan took off. As above, these were Jordan's "best years"

They were also Shaq's best years, when he never averaged less than 23 and 14 (his rookie year). No center in Lebron's career has approached the impact that Shaq made in the game during Jordan's big years.

Oh they also won gold medals together in 1992.

#5. Bill Laimbeer finished in the top 10 in rebounding for 7 times and was in the top 5 5 times. He is largely considered one of the dirtiest players of all time. In the current NBA he would have been one of the scrubs you mentioned, but that is because of the way the game is played now not because of the player he was. In the time that Jordan played, he was an enforcer who would destroy you if you came into the paint.

#6. I agree here, except that Garnett isn't a center.

Robinson:

#4 all time in Defensive Rating
#5 all time in block percentage.
#4 all time in blocks
Was in the top 5 in defensive win percentage for 12 years
Never finished less than #10 in PER and was only outside of the top 5 twice


To be blunt, David Robinson was better than Duncan because he was so good at defense.

But lets compare Kevin Garnett, who isn't a center:

#19 in all time Defensive rating
#63 in block percentage
#19 in blocks
#7 in defensive wins (right behind the Admiral)
Top 5 in PER 5 times

It is close and the steals are way in Garnett's court (which is why he is close in defensive wins). But overall, steals aren't guarding the paint, which was my entire point.

So fixing the fact that you have Duncan in who has played limitedly with both players and putting Shaq on the side he actually played on.

Garnett (not a center), Howard, Ming, and Wallace against Shaq, Hakeem, Robinson, Mutombo, Ewing, Mourning, Laimbeer

Wow you could not have proven my point more if you had said it.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Wade is a finals mvp and just over a year ago people were calling miami his team and that he was the closer. now you are back tracking....trying to say rodman and pippen are so great. LOL. pippen was a great player don't get me wrong. but he's no finals MVP. lebron gave up on cleveland and not just once, but twice if you look at how it acted against boston. period. you can justify it all you want. but it is true. he is not the alpha male that jordan is and never will be. that is the difference. Jordan may not be as versatile or as talented. but he has more mental toughness than lebron will ever have. and that's all that counts when you are splitting hairs about who is the more talented player...

Hell lebron's too scared to enter the NBA scrub dunk contest in fear of losing to some normal dude.

Kinda hard to be finals MVP when you are on the same team as the best player of all time..

And yes Wade had Shaq (who is possibly the most dominant center of all time), but he was already on the decline and wasn't quite the completely dominant player that he once was.

 

[BC867]

...Shaq (who is possibly the most dominant center of all time)...

From that point of view, Shaq couldn't carry Wilt's jock strap.

 

[Lorenzo]

Kinda hard to be finals MVP when you are on the same team as the best player of all time..

And yes Wade had Shaq (who is possibly the most dominant center of all time), but he was already on the decline and wasn't quite the completely dominant player that he once was.

Wade is better than pippen at both ends of the court. Period.

 

[Lorenzo]

Nah, you're letting your Lebron hate color your thinking. I don't think he's scared to participate in the NBA slam dunk contest, he's too egotistical and butt-hurt to do it. He was left off the team his first year and wants to do whatever suits him best when it comes to this stuff, he feels he owes them nothing since they slighted him as a rookie.

And, why is mental toughness the only thing that counts when comparing great players? There is absolutely no doubt that MJ is a more mentally tough player than Lebron but so are a thousand other players that have laced them up in the NBA.

Lebron does so many thing well on the court, it's unfair to disregard them simply because he isn't the one-on-one player that Kobe was or the mentally tough player that MJ was. MJ had the far superior career but right now, each in their prime, I'm not sure which player impacts the game more. It's a legitimate argument. I come down on MJ's side but it isn't a slam dunk like it would have been two years ago.

Steve

Lebron is scared to lose the dunk contest. If he's not scared he should man up and just do it like mike did. It has nothing to do with hate... Those are the facts.

I say the same thing about a rod for being scared to lose the hr derby. Oh well.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Wade is better than pippen at both ends of the court. Period.

Pippen's probably one of the top 5 defenders of all time. Could defend any position 1-3. Even some 4's. There's no way Wade is better then him on that side of the court.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Lebron is scared to lose the dunk contest.

um... anyone who watched what might have been the most ridiculous dunk I've ever seen that LeBron threw up in warm-ups a couple weeks ago would never say this. the guy could win the contest blindfolded and one leg tied behind his back. he knows it and everyone else knows it. but why risk any kind of injury to prove you can win a meaningless contest when you're trying to become the greatest player of all time?

If he's not scared he should man up and just do it like mike did. It has nothing to do with hate... Those are the facts.

michael did it back in the day when he was building his brand and exposure wasn't NEAR what it was now in terms of NBA marketing.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Lebron is scared to lose the dunk contest. If he's not scared he should man up and just do it like mike did. It has nothing to do with hate... Those are the facts.

I say the same thing about a rod for being scared to lose the hr derby. Oh well.

Well, there are facts and then there are facts but I don't what the heck you're trying to pass off as a fact. It's not even in the ballpark. Lebron would waltz through the Slam Dunk Contest like he was the only one entered if he was motivated to do so (that's an opinion, btw). I'm not now nor will I ever be a Lebron fan but again, you appear to be blinded by your bias. I say that because there is usually some logic in your posts and it is often absent when you talk about Lebron.

And Magic offering a million to the contest if Lebron enters is a joke. You're not going to entice this guy into doing something, anything, for a million bucks. Besides, you don't get to someone like Lebron with pocket change, you get to him through ego. Convince him that it's a measuring stick for his career and he'll sign up so fast your head will spin. But as it is, there's just no reason to do something he feels is beneath him. I believe his rationale goes something like this "Leave it to the new guys, the midgets and the athletic wannabes to perform like circus clowns for the audience, I have bigger fish to fry".

Steve

 

[BC867]

... you don't get to someone like Lebron with pocket change, you get to him through ego. Convince him that it's a measuring stick for his career and he'll sign up so fast your head will spin. But as it is, there's just no reason to do something he feels is beneath him. I believe his rationale goes something like this "Leave it the new guys, the midgets and the athletic wannabes to perform like circus clowns for the audience, I have bigger fish to fry".

I agree. It may be ironic that when the downhill path of his career sets in, that might be the time that he would want to participate. But by then, he won't be as agile as in his prime.

 

[Budden]

The thing is, Kobe could not take the Lakers to the title by himself either. It didn't happen for Kobe unless he was paired up with other All-Star talent like Shaq, Pau, Bynum, etc. Just like it did not happen for Lebron until paired up with other All-Star talent like Wade, Bosh. I would argue that by themselves on their team, Lebron alone in Cleveland and Kobe alone in LA, Lebron actually took his teams further. This could be evidence that Lebron is the more valuable player.

The idea that Kobe won a couple of championships because he was paired with "Pau, Bynum, etc." is absurdly stupid. Andrew Bynum was not a contributor on those championship teams. The guy averaged less than 24mpg in both of those finals, averaged 6 and 8 ppg in 09 and 10, respectively.

Like almost any other sports topic, this just goes to show that people have basically no ability to compare players that are separated in time. And some people have none.

 

[Covert Rain]

Oh man..I take a little break and slinslin's Lopez koolaid cup runneth over. I still take Lebron over Kobe but neither could hold MJ's jock. Sorry, I was a Bull's hater and I have never seen a guy back up his talk or be challenged and rise to that challenge like MJ. Jordan would own both those guys on the court in his prime. It's not even a debate.

 

[BC867]

Oh man..I take a little break and slinslin's Lopez koolaid cup runneth over. I still take Lebron over Kobe but neither could hold MJ's jock. Sorry, I was a Bull's hater and I have never seen a guy back up his talk or be challenged and rise to that challenge like MJ. Jordan would own both those guys on the court in his prime. It's not even a debate.

Yes, and there is another way of looking at it to substantiate Lebron-over-Kobe but MJ-over-both.

In terms of size, the way he dominates a game puts LeBron (6'8-240) over Kobe (6'6"-200). Well then, that should leave Michael (6'6"-195) bringing up the rear.

But MJ not only dominated his team, he dominated the league and history in a way that no "small man" ever has. Not Oscar Robertson nor Jerry West.

Of course, no one dominated the league at their time like Wilt Chamberlain, then Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. But Center is a whole different situation and, like King James and Kobe, it took other stars alongside to bring them championships.

MJ was the cog, more than anyone else, in achieving his string of championships.

 

[Errntknght]

BC,

Of course, no one dominated the league at their time like Wilt Chamberlain...

Wilt Chamberlain didn't dominate the league at all, only the scoring column. Bill Russell and Co. dominated the league in Wilt's heyday to the tune of eleven championships in twelve years. I think he did win a championship in the last days of his career teaming up with Elgin Baylor and Jerry West...

 

[BC867]

Wilt Chamberlain didn't dominate the league at all, only the scoring column. Bill Russell and Co. dominated the league in Wilt's heyday to the tune of eleven championships in twelve years. I think he did win a championship in the last days of his career teaming up with Elgin Baylor and Jerry West...

True, but from a marketing point of view, Wilt did dominate. After all, it's not just a sports competition, it's a business.

The night he scored 100 points in that little arena in Hershey, Pa., he put the NBA on the map, more than George Mikan before him or even the great Bill Russell or the multi talented triple-double-for-a-season Oscar Robertson.

 

[Lorenzo]

Well, there are facts and then there are facts but I don't what the heck you're trying to pass off as a fact. It's not even in the ballpark. Lebron would waltz through the Slam Dunk Contest like he was the only one entered if he was motivated to do so (that's an opinion, btw). I'm not now nor will I ever be a Lebron fan but again, you appear to be blinded by your bias. I say that because there is usually some logic in your posts and it is often absent when you talk about Lebron.

And Magic offering a million to the contest if Lebron enters is a joke. You're not going to entice this guy into doing something, anything, for a million bucks. Besides, you don't get to someone like Lebron with pocket change, you get to him through ego. Convince him that it's a measuring stick for his career and he'll sign up so fast your head will spin. But as it is, there's just no reason to do something he feels is beneath him. I believe his rationale goes something like this "Leave it to the new guys, the midgets and the athletic wannabes to perform like circus clowns for the audience, I have bigger fish to fry".

Steve

Good post, you are right. I can't argue much with that. although I am not completely biased against james. and I haven't been completely wrong about him either. There are some that blindly follow him and think he is the greatest ever and I don't think that path can be crossed yet, although he is in the discussion now and rightfully so.

I don't hate james or even dislike him. I just choose to root against him because I don't like players that team up like that. Now if he did team up with dirk and another person to come to dallas I would reconsider that thought haha, so I can't blame lebron for doing what he had to do to ensure that he got his ring(s). that makes me a hypocrit at the end of the day, but I'm also just a fan and not afraid to admit that I'm a homer to my teams.

As far as the dunk contest, I still want to see it. and I was incorrect with my choice of words. It's not a fact that he is scared as you say, but I can't be 100% sure that he's not until he does it. I don't see why he wont if he is a sure lock to win. that's just my opinion. Maybe he and wade/durant should just dunk against each other. aside from kobe wade/durant might be the best overall players left. I think magic should offer to donate that money to one of lebron's charities, because you are right lebron doesn't need a million dollars lol. and if he did it for just that money he would look even more greedy LOL.