Is there any way we pass on Thomas?

[football karma]

First -- lets not assume that the dynamic that lead to passing Suggs and trading down is still present in this year's draft room--

1. McGinnis knew he had that year to save his job and wanted a starting d-end and a WR. He was fine with trading down

2. George Boone was a scout, and reportedly, the author of the evaluation of Suggs as a third rounder.

3. Graves was in his first year (along with M Bidwill) as having decision influencing authority in the draft room -- and both if totally honest today would admit to making a rookie mistake.

Today -- the Cards have:

1. A new HC who has some freedom in the honeymoon period to implement his program.

2. George Boone is gone, replaced by Steve Keim. I my mind, this is like replacing Jeff Blake with Matt Leinart. Huge upgrade.

3. Graves has been around the block a few times now. If you dont think this is relevant -- think back to any new job you took-- particulalry if it was a situation where you were first "in-charge" in some sense, and how much better you were at it two or three years later.

The whole Suggs thing in retrospect is agonizing, but at a certain point we just have to let it go.

 

[CardLogic]

I just hope the Lions pick Thomas so we don't have to be in a position to have to take him, or look like morons. I just think that Thomas has question marks when I look at the way he plays. He doesn't seem nasty enough to play OLine in the NFL. He reminds me of his Wisconsin buddy finance major who was a total bust for us even though HE was a sure fire pick.

It would be just the Cardinals luck; they pick Thomas and he uses Wendell Bryant as his financial advisor: How to obtain maximum income with minimum effort!

 

[football karma]

and back on topic--

the minute the front office let Big walk, and didnt sign more than a stop-gap or project-type left tackle --

they committed themselves to taking Thomas if he is there.

If he isnt, there are lots of directions the team can go -- but if he is -- I think the decision is a simple one

 

[cardsfanmd]

Terrelle Suggs sucks, plain and simple. He comes in to rush the passer on third and long situations. Those of you who think a guy who only comes in for maybe 30% (at the absolute most) of the defensive snaps is or was worthy of an early first round pick need to seriously rexamine your thoughts and the processes that you take to develop them.

I say this atleast once a week so after this time I will just make it my signature so I dont have too write it anymore. Suggs would have been a huge bust for us, he sucks and any and all of the success he has enjoyed is due to the unbelievable Raven's D that enables him to be a severely one-dimensional player. I compare it to this: imagine if BJ had went to Indy or the Pats. Don't try to tell me for a second that Peyton or Brady could not have gotten him 1,000yds or 70-80 catches in atlest one of his seasons thus far.

 

[Big Deal]

and back on topic--

the minute the front office let Big walk, and didnt sign more than a stop-gap or project-type left tackle --

they committed themselves to taking Thomas if he is there.

If he isnt, there are lots of directions the team can go -- but if he is -- I think the decision is a simple one

I disagree, why would they let Davis walk over money then commit the same money to an unknown and oh by the way, waste a #5 draft pick in the process.

Look at our drafts over the years, we are always going after high character guys who are a safe pick. It's B.S., what we end up with are guys who don't play with 100% motor, aren't nasty, don't like to get punched in the mouth and they get mentally beaten after the first series.

Now I know that I am making a lot of assumtions about Thomas, but I just don't think he has what it takes to be an elite LT. I want someone who has the will to win and will beat your brains in to do it.

We can't trade Big and the #5 pick for Thomas it is too Cardinalesque.

 

[Mitch]

I disagree, why would they let Davis walk over money then commit the same money to an unknown and oh by the way, waste a #5 draft pick in the process.

Look at our drafts over the years, we are always going after high character guys who are a safe pick. It's B.S., what we end up with are guys who don't play with 100% motor, aren't nasty, don't like to get punched in the mouth and they get mentally beaten after the first series.

Now I know that I am making a lot of assumtions about Thomas, but I just don't think he has what it takes to be an elite LT. I want someone who has the will to win and will beat your brains in to do it.

We can't trade Big and the #5 pick for Thomas it is too Cardinalesque.

Good post, Big deal.

The thing is...the Mike Gandy signing signifies that Whiz wants a big, physical line that's going to hammer away at the defense. The left side of the line will likely be LT-Ross and LG-Gandy or LT-Gandy and LG-Brown...whichever scenario works best. In pass protection Whiz may have to offer Gandy or Ross some help against the premier DEs...by chipping with the TE or the RB. Meanwhile Whiz will want the unit as a whole to play smashmouth football.

If Reggie Wells isn't playing physical enough, I could see Whiz going with Gandy--Brown--Johnson--Lutui--Ross. Again, Whiz's priority is to run the ball 55% of the time at least. He will make adjustments to help protect Leinart with the TEs and RBs.

if Justin Blalock is available at #38...he'd be in a battle for the starting job at RT with Reggie Wells and would eventually win that battle because he's a more physical run blocker.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

C'mon, Cbus, you know better. The stuff we hear from coaches/teams now means nothing. Zilch. Zero. Nada.

If Thomas is there (which I still can't see happening), we'll take him.

I don't see where the smokescreen would do the Cards any good. They have to hope for the guy to drop them so it's not in their hands.The smokescreen would be benficial to the Browns and Lions by saying they are taking him with the hopes that the Cards will move up. Plus, the Cards FO, in the past, has been pretty straight forward with the media on who they like. The only occasion i can think of differently was the Edge signing.

I also think it would be a huge mistake to pass on Thomas. Contrary to what people think, he does play with a mean streak and is very aggressive. He's a very high character guy and is as smart as they come. Throw in the fact that he is very athletic and we'd have to be insane to pass on him. But, i can see it happening.Others are right that the Cards may like guys like Blalock, Ugoh, or Sears just as much. I don't see how that can be the case but we are talking about the Cards here.

 

[Goodyear Card]

I think it's a smoke screen.... I'd be shocked if he wasn't the #1 player on their board... considering:

And if he is there and they don't take him.... God have mercy on their souls.

If they pass on Thomas they don't deserve any mercy. However, they will not pass on Thomas.

 

[Vermont Maverick]

If Joe Thomas falls to #5, the Cards will set a record running to the podium. When a prototypical player is there (especially a lineman), nobody worries about fitting into a certain mold of player. When you're talking about second or third round picks, or free agents, yes, you look for a certain type of player. Think anybody would pass on Pace, Ogden, or Walter Jones because they didn't fit a certain Mold? No chance. Some things you just don't over think.

That being said, if Peterson is there, too, now you have a decision to make. Still think the Cards go Thomas due to need, and possibly injury concern.

 

[Big Deal]

If Joe Thomas falls to #5, the Cards will set a record running to the podium. When a prototypical player is there (especially a lineman), nobody worries about fitting into a certain mold of player. When you're talking about second or third round picks, or free agents, yes, you look for a certain type of player. Think anybody would pass on Pace, Ogden, or Walter Jones because they didn't fit a certain Mold? No chance. Some things you just don't over think.

That being said, if Peterson is there, too, now you have a decision to make. Still think the Cards go Thomas due to need, and possibly injury concern.

Haven't we gotten into enough trouble drafting for need? I have a very hard time accepting that you are comparing Thomas to Pace, Ogden, or Jones. My thought is if Baker and Long would have declared that Thomas would be the 3rd rated tackle in the draft.

 

[Shane]

You know, I am so sick and tired of everyone saying that. It makes me absolutely insane. Every year there are two or three linemen in the draft that everyone says will hold down their spot for ten years. How often does that happen? I can only think of about six guys over the past 10 or 15 years that were able to hold their spot down for ten years. And three of them left their originals teams in free agency. Stop lying to yourselves guys.

Another thing is I would like you guys to go look at the video that Shogun
put up called something along the lines of "Ross and Gandy cant be this bad". That guy Kwame Harris was projected to hold down his spot for ten years. Because of that he was a 1st rounder. He cant even keep Alex Smith safe for two plays in a row.

I am beginning to lean more and more twards taking Landry or Peterson or moving down.

Get over it. Read what I said. I said that he "LIKELY" will hold down that spot. I never guaranteed it.

You are just being a hypocrite because you arent "sold on thomas" you say you get sick and tired of everyone saying that or when you here others say stuff like it. Then you turn around later in this thread and claim that you know that Landry is the 2nd safest pick in the entire draft and has all pro written all over him. You must be the best talent evaluator here I dont know why anyof us say anything about these players. Because holy cow you said it so it must be true. :notworthy

Whether you like it or not Landry has just as much bust factor as any other pick including Thomas.

 

[Vermont Maverick]

Haven't we gotten into enough trouble drafting for need? I have a very hard time accepting that you are comparing Thomas to Pace, Ogden, or Jones. My thought is if Baker and Long would have declared that Thomas would be the 3rd rated tackle in the draft.

I never have been an advocate of drafting for need. Thomas is widely regarded as top 3 in this draft AND happens to fill an Obviously glaring need. The decision comes if Peterson happens to drop (since I consider him to be SLIGHTLY higher on the board.)

 

[Big Deal]

I never have been an advocate of drafting for need. Thomas is widely regarded as top 3 in this draft AND happens to fill an Obviously glaring need. The decision comes if Peterson happens to drop (since I consider him to be SLIGHTLY higher on the board.)

Are we, or are we not in the same position with our offensive line as the Lions. Dare I say that our OLine is an entire letter grade better than that of Detroit.

That being said if Detroit passes on Thomas then he is not regarded as a top 3 prospect in this draft by the people that matter.

If Detroit passes and we pass, it could be possible that Thomas drops to 10 in this draft.

 

[earthsci]

Are we, or are we not in the same position with our offensive line as the Lions.

Maybe. Are we in the same position with our QB as the Lions? We are miles ahead of them. If the Lions don't draft a QB they will be drafting Thomas IMO.

 

[ajcardfan]

Terrelle Suggs sucks, plain and simple. He comes in to rush the passer on third and long situations. Those of you who think a guy who only comes in for maybe 30% (at the absolute most) of the defensive snaps is or was worthy of an early first round pick need to seriously rexamine your thoughts and the processes that you take to develop them.

I say this atleast once a week so after this time I will just make it my signature so I dont have too write it anymore. Suggs would have been a huge bust for us, he sucks and any and all of the success he has enjoyed is due to the unbelievable Raven's D that enables him to be a severely one-dimensional player. I compare it to this: imagine if BJ had went to Indy or the Pats. Don't try to tell me for a second that Peyton or Brady could not have gotten him 1,000yds or 70-80 catches in atlest one of his seasons thus far.

He doesn't just play in passing situations. I find it hard to believe you watch much of the Ravens. But, if it makes you feel better to say a two-time Pro Bowler and DROY "sucks", go right ahead. It's not going to change the fact that that trade down was a disaster.

Bryant Johnson never would've made the Pro Bowl with the numbers you put up there though.

 

[perivolaki]

Trying to scope out what the Cardinals will do based on what their coaches are saying is like believing the guy trying to sell you a used car. (1) Lying before Draft Day is in the DNA of most of them and (2) This is our first go-round with WIZ and Russ Grimm; so, in terms of their credibility we have little or no past record of statements to go on.

I disagree, look at the free agency period. Whiz and Graves stated that they wanted to go for depth and competition and they did. So far, Whiz in particular seem to be very straight forward. They said who they were going to target and they got their first choices except for Kelley. If I remember most people on this board thought they were hiding the truth then too. It wouldn't surprise me at all to see the Cardinals pass on Thomas.

 

[overseascardfan]

Haven't we gotten into enough trouble drafting for need? I have a very hard time accepting that you are comparing Thomas to Pace, Ogden, or Jones. My thought is if Baker and Long would have declared that Thomas would be the 3rd rated tackle in the draft.

I don't know about that, even before those two decided to return to school Thomas was rated higher. The people who benefited the most from thier decisions are Levi Brown and Joe Staley who both would have been pushed out of the 1st round.

 

[Big Deal]

I don't know about that, even before those two decided to return to school Thomas was rated higher. The people who benefited the most from thier decisions are Levi Brown and Joe Staley who both would have been pushed out of the 1st round.

There is no way that Thomas is a better pro that either of those two. How about this, Feruson was rated much higher than Thomas had he not gotten hurt last year and came out. Look at how much he has struggled in the NFL.

To me it seems that they are always going to play with a TE on that side from what Whis has said. That measn that Thomas' strength in pass protection is not as important.

If they are going to run with a FB and TE why are we so concerned with a pass protecting LT at #5? He just doesn't fit.

 

[Pariah]

If we pass on Thomas, I'm cool with it as long as it's for Peterson.

 

[Shogun]

That being said if Detroit passes on Thomas then he is not regarded as a top 3 prospect in this draft by the people that matter.

I'm sorry, but GTFOH with that nonsense right there. So just because Calvin Johnson isn't taken T3 he isn't the best prospect in the draft? You guys are SERIOUSLY out thinking yourselves here for the sake of boredom and anticipation.

And that's sad.

 

[cardsfanmd]

He doesn't just play in passing situations. I find it hard to believe you watch much of the Ravens. But, if it makes you feel better to say a two-time Pro Bowler and DROY "sucks", go right ahead. It's not going to change the fact that that trade down was a disaster.

Bryant Johnson never would've made the Pro Bowl with the numbers you put up there though.

Your right bud. I have had season tickets to the Ravens since they came to Baltimore but I haven't seen much of them. Go to a Baltimore board and ask some Raven fans what they think about him.

 

[JeffGollin]

I disagree, look at the free agency period. Whiz and Graves stated that they wanted to go for depth and competition and they did. So far, Whiz in particular seem to be very straight forward. They said who they were going to target and they got their first choices except for Kelley. If I remember most people on this board thought they were hiding the truth then too. It wouldn't surprise me at all to see the Cardinals pass on Thomas.

PWT (point well taken). But -

It's one thing to be truthful about your free agency plans (in order to not give fans false hope) but a totally different thing to be truthful when you're jockeying for leverage in the weeks leading up to the draft.

That Rod and Wiz were forthcoming about free agency bodes well, but I still maintain that it will be difficult to scope out the relationship of what they say and what they do until we have at least one season of them under our belt.

One other observation - Just because Wiz was able to single out four positions in which there was a clearly identified "best player", this doesn't mean that the Cards wouldn't draft a player at some other position where who the best player was might still be a bit murky and up for grabs. If, say, the Cards were up in the air about Thomas or L Jones at OT, they could still draft the best of the two if they both were available.

 

[cardsfanmd]

Get over it. Read what I said. I said that he "LIKELY" will hold down that spot. I never guaranteed it.

You are just being a hypocrite because you arent "sold on thomas" you say you get sick and tired of everyone saying that or when you here others say stuff like it. Then you turn around later in this thread and claim that you know that Landry is the 2nd safest pick in the entire draft and has all pro written all over him. You must be the best talent evaluator here I dont know why anyof us say anything about these players. Because holy cow you said it so it must be true. :notworthy

Whether you like it or not Landry has just as much bust factor as any other pick including Thomas.

That is an aboslutely ridiculous and ignorant response there buddy. I in no way shape or form personally attack you, and yet you find a way to be an internet tough guy and start namecalling over the damn computer.

Why you choose to lie and say that I wrote that you guarenteed good play from Thomas when I not only quoted your exact words but also highlighted them is beyond me.

Furthermore, if you can read then you can look at what my post says and you will notice that I wrote that "I viewed" Landry as the second safest pick. That means that I was simply expressing an opinion. I did not claim to "know" anything.

For the record too bud, safety is historically a safer pick than O-line in the first round. No, that isn't my opinion either, its a fact go to NFL.com and research it if you like.

In the end, you were exactly right. People who have thoughts like you should leave all the talking to others.

 

[Cheesebeef]

That is an aboslutely ridiculous and ignorant response there buddy. I in no way shape or form personally attack you, and yet you find a way to be an internet tough guy and start namecalling over the damn computer.

Why you choose to lie and say that I wrote that you guarenteed good play from Thomas when I not only quoted your exact words but also highlighted them is beyond me.

Furthermore, if you can read then you can look at what my post says and you will notice that I wrote that "I viewed" Landry as the second safest pick. That means that I was simply expressing an opinion. I did not claim to "know" anything.

For the record too bud, safety is historically a safer pick than O-line in the first round. No, that isn't my opinion either, its a fact go to NFL.com and research it if you like.

In the end, you were exactly right. People who have thoughts like you should leave all the talking to others.

For someone who seems to like to talk down to others about "leaving the talking to others", you sure are making pretty weak arguments to suggest you belong in the conversation and it's fairly elementary why:

Let's just break this down, shall we? Suggs would have been a bust here because he plays in the 3-4 and the only reason he's been a two-time Pro-Bowler and ROY is because he joined one of the greatest defenses of all time - man, where to begin with this non-sensical stance? How about here:

a) Suggs played in a 4-3 D in college and racked up the sacks - the fact that he was able to go to a 3-4 and be able to still put up numbers doesn't show that he can't be a 4-3 DE, rather it just shows the incredible flexibility the kid has (and this is coming from someone who thought Suggs was going to be a HUGE bust before the draft).

b) Suggs joined one of the best defenses of all time - in what universe? He came to the Ravens a full TWO SEASONS after their Super Bowl run and during those two years, the entire team was gutted besides Lewis, McAllister and Ed Reed - that's THREE players from the entire defense, not to mention that the in the second year after the Ravens won the title, their defense was nothing to brag about. But, yeah, he went to one of the best defenses of all time - good lord, talk about hyperbole.

As to your next assertion that Safety is a much safrer pick and that a T is just as likely to be a Robert Gallery as a Jonathan Ogden - well, this has to be probably one of the most uninformed opinions I've ever seen on the subject. Let's look at the ALL of the Ts taken in the first 14 picks in the last ten years years, shall we?

D-Brickshaw
Jamaal Brown
Robert Gallery
Jordan Gross
Mike Williams
Leonard Davis
Chris Samuels
John Tait
Kyle Turley
Tra Thomas
Orlando Pace
Jonathan Ogden
Walter Jones

so - right there, out of THIRTEEN guys, there is ONE complete bust (Gallery) and ONE mediocre T (Big) - the other guys are either perenial pro-bowlers, HOFer or firmly entrenched at their positions, being key members of playoff teams.

And what about Big and Gallery? What makes them so special? Oh, it couldn't be because they play and were coached by the most pathetic organizations in all of football, can it? That can't possibly be the reason why out of 14 Tackles, all of them have gone on to have very good careers as either Pro-Bowlers or solid starters.

seriously - if you actually have coaches who can coach, the SAFEST pick in the draft is the first OT - 13 out 15 don't lie.

 

[Cheesebeef]

You know, I am so sick and tired of everyone saying that. It makes me absolutely insane. Every year there are two or three linemen in the draft that everyone says will hold down their spot for ten years. How often does that happen? I can only think of about six guys over the past 10 or 15 years that were able to hold their spot down for ten years. And three of them left their originals teams in free agency. Stop lying to yourselves guys.

Jonathan Ogden
Orlando Pace
Walter Jones
Jamaal Brown
D'Brickshaw Ferguson
John Tait
Kyle Turley
Tra Thomas
Chris Samuels
Jordan Gross
Mike Williams

There's ELEVEN guys - all either the first or second tackle taken, all within the first 13 picks of the draft that have been bookend tackles or have already shown the ability to be bookend tackles for years down the road.

Basically, every linemen except Big and Gallery taken in the first fourteen picks of the first round in the last decade has panned out (when healthy, which isn't a consideration because ANY player can get hurt).

but yeah, people are lying to themselves when talking about getting a stud T with the 5th pick.