Is this really fair though? (Rooney rule)

[wa52lz]

I have to shake my head at times. Oh the poor white male who has to actually earn the job on merit over networking abilities.

Warren Moon had to go the CFL because ignorant idiots though a black man didn't have the ability or intelligence or..... to be a QB in the NFL. Every friggin GM was wrong and Moon proved it beyond a shadow of doubt so now their is no discrimination in drafting non white QB's.

Maybe those who take shots at affirmative action or the Rooney rule are pure of heart and can't conceive that discrimination was rampant through most of our years and still hasn't been fully eliminated to this day.

Oh the pain and suffering NFL owners and GM's have to endure to interview an extra candidate or two. When will the insanity stop.

How did Doug Williams get drafted in the first round that year? Maybe he didnt get drafted becuase he signed in Canada before the draft?

 

[Shane]

Um, the teams can still hire whoever they want.

But many owners are going to likely take the panels suggestion. Thus the reason for it. So in the end there are candidates that will likely not even interview due to the so called panel and its apparent emphasis.

If its so simple like your saying and completely fair in the "they can just hire who they want anyway" why have it at all? Then the panels effect should be useless? right?

 

[Kel Varnsen]

Teams aren't limited in the number of oeople they can interview, are they?

How does interviewing a minority candidate prevent a non-minority candidate frim being interviewed?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[speedy]

But many owners are going to likely take the panels suggestion. Thus the reason for it. So in the end there are candidates that will likely not even interview due to the so called panel and its apparent emphasis.

If its so simple like your saying and completely fair in the "they can just hire who they want anyway" why have it at all? Then the panels effect should be useless? right?

Shane is right. They call this politics.

 

[ajcardfan]

But many owners are going to likely take the panels suggestion. Thus the reason for it. So in the end there are candidates that will likely not even interview due to the so called panel and its apparent emphasis.

If its so simple like your saying and completely fair in the "they can just hire who they want anyway" why have it at all? Then the panels effect should be useless? right?

Yeah, it mostly will be. Just like the Rooney Rule, nothing is really going to change.

 

[blindseyed]

Well if it's really gonna be fair then they need to suggest and interview 1 gay, 1 woman, 1 black, 1 Asian, 1 Mexican, 1 Arab.......and so on and so on

 

[Cardiac]

How did Doug Williams get drafted in the first round that year? Maybe he didnt get drafted becuase he signed in Canada before the draft?

Thanks for the correction. Instead of going off my not always accurate memory I will provide this link: http://www.footballperspective.com/the-history-of-black-quarterbacks-in-the-nfl/

Although my example was not accurate the point remains the same that the NFL had a bias against black QB's and the same can be said for HC's.

From 1963 thru 2012 there have been 124 White HC's and 17 minority HC's. Don't care what excuses anyone makes this simply is an issue that needs addressed.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sport...report-coaching-mobility-rooney-rule/2367725/

 

[oaken1]

Thanks for the correction. Instead of going off my not always accurate memory I will provide this link: http://www.footballperspective.com/the-history-of-black-quarterbacks-in-the-nfl/

Although my example was not accurate the point remains the same that the NFL had a bias against black QB's and the same can be said for HC's.

From 1963 thru 2012 there have been 124 White HC's and 17 minority HC's. Don't care what excuses anyone makes this simply is an issue that needs addressed.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sport...report-coaching-mobility-rooney-rule/2367725/

it is not about "excuses" and it is not an issue that "needs addressed".....it is an issue which has been addressed, and the rules put in place to address it have become obsolete.

 

[Cardiac]

it is not about "excuses" and it is not an issue that "needs addressed".....it is an issue which has been addressed, and the rules put in place to address it have become obsolete.

So you are saying more impactful rules need to be implemented or just throw our collective arms up in the air and say it is what it is?

 

[cardncubfan]

So, what you're saying is that only white people are racist. Glad to have someone like you around to tell us these things. Here's a little tidbit genius. I don't like President Obama and it has nothing to do with his skin color(BTW, he's half white) however I'm brow beaten with this charge every day. There are millions of people who don't like him and it has nothing to do with his skin color. These people you speak of are in the extreme minority. But playing along, is it fair to say that those who hated Bush was because of his skin color? Let me give you an education, if you think racism is a one way street, try being white and dating a black person and let me know the reception you get. Oh, and you can be a bigot and not a racist.

Republicans?

 

[oaken1]

So you are saying more impactful rules need to be implemented or just throw our collective arms up in the air and say it is what it is?

when I look at the NFL and their collective hiring practices I do not see a league, or even a team, that gives a rats ass what color a mans skin is. I see a league and teams, that want the best possible coach they can get...because good coaches help their teams win, which makes them more money.


it has nothing to do with what is "fair"....examples....team "A" has talked the Tuna into coming out of retirement and coaching their team...so they fire the coach to hire Tuna.....but,...well,...they have to interview a minority candidate first,....which is a waste of everybodys time...because they want Tuna.....

now team "B"...has talked Denny Green into coming back and coaching Their team...so they fire the coach and hire Denny Green....but wait,..what about,....?? oh yeah,...their are no rules that apply here so the process goes smoothly.....


in both cases the teams get the coach they want anyway but team A has to waste their time,...and some assistant coaches time,...... and if you truly want the world to be fair and equal....then shouldn't team B have to interview a white candidate as well??

you dropped a stat about how many minority coaches the league has had since 1963....it was pretty.....but have not those minority HC's been in place over the past decade or so?? Its cool to go back 50 years to make a point and all....but if you were to compare decade to decade it is readily apparent the disparity is no longer present.....

 

[Cardiac]

when I look at the NFL and their collective hiring practices I do not see a league, or even a team, that gives a rats ass what color a mans skin is. I see a league and teams, that want the best possible coach they can get...because good coaches help their teams win, which makes them more money.


it has nothing to do with what is "fair"....examples....team "A" has talked the Tuna into coming out of retirement and coaching their team...so they fire the coach to hire Tuna.....but,...well,...they have to interview a minority candidate first,....which is a waste of everybodys time...because they want Tuna.....

now team "B"...has talked Denny Green into coming back and coaching Their team...so they fire the coach and hire Denny Green....but wait,..what about,....?? oh yeah,...their are no rules that apply here so the process goes smoothly.....


in both cases the teams get the coach they want anyway but team A has to waste their time,...and some assistant coaches time,...... and if you truly want the world to be fair and equal....then shouldn't team B have to interview a white candidate as well??

you dropped a stat about how many minority coaches the league has had since 1963....it was pretty.....but have not those minority HC's been in place over the past decade or so?? Its cool to go back 50 years to make a point and all....but if you were to compare decade to decade it is readily apparent the disparity is no longer present.....

Only 18.8% of HC's are minorities as of 2012. So I scream BS that "it is readily apparent the disparity is no longer present...."

Are you really worried about a GM and Owner spending 2 to 6 hours doing an extra interview. Really?!?!?!? Any business owner who doesn't spend time trying to improve their staff and making it the most important aspect of their business is in trouble. Every time one does an interview they learn something and the candidate absolutely gets something out of the process.

Your Tuna example actually happened with Steve Mooch and the Lions. How did that work out for them. When was the last time the Tuna did anything worthwhile in the NFL? These examples are a battle cry for why interviewing multiple candidates is better than going old boys network and simply hiring retreads.

 

[oaken1]

Only 18.8% of HC's are minorities as of 2012. So I scream BS that "it is readily apparent the disparity is no longer present...."

Are you really worried about a GM and Owner spending 2 to 6 hours doing an extra interview. Really?!?!?!? Any business owner who doesn't spend time trying to improve their staff and making it the most important aspect of their business is in trouble. Every time one does an interview they learn something and the candidate absolutely gets something out of the process.

Your Tuna example actually happened with Steve Mooch and the Lions. How did that work out for them. When was the last time the Tuna did anything worthwhile in the NFL? These examples are a battle cry for why interviewing multiple candidates is better than going old boys network and simply hiring retreads.

sorry you didn't like my examples...they were just some names off of the top of my head....both being very successful HC's at the NFL level.

18.8% you say??....question:are there minority coaches within the NFL other than black? I am unsure on that as I do not know all of the teams coaches.

if the answer is no......then actually black coaches would be over represented in the NFL considering black folks only make up about 12.5-13% of the population of the country. which again, clearly shows that the NFL has no issues about hiring coaches, as long as they can win.

 

[Cardiac]

sorry you didn't like my examples...they were just some names off of the top of my head....both being very successful HC's at the NFL level.

18.8% you say??....question:are there minority coaches within the NFL other than black? I am unsure on that as I do not know all of the teams coaches.

if the answer is no......then actually black coaches would be over represented in the NFL considering black folks only make up about 12.5-13% of the population of the country. which again, clearly shows that the NFL has no issues about hiring coaches, as long as they can win.

But what % of NFL players are black??? Does it make sense that in an industry that over 50% of the employees are black only 19% of them are in the top leadership role?

We can throw numbers back and forth and both of us know that statistics can be manipulated to support just about any stance. Does anyone truly believe that racism and bigotry has been basically eliminated at this point in time. Once again I will say and believe that anyone who answers yes to this is either ignorant or very pure of heart and can't conceive this is an issue because it's not in their heart or mind to be a bigot.

 

[oaken1]

But what % of NFL players are black??? Does it make sense that in an industry that over 50% of the employees are black only 19% of them are in the top leadership role?

We can throw numbers back and forth and both of us know that statistics can be manipulated to support just about any stance. Does anyone truly believe that racism and bigotry has been basically eliminated at this point in time. Once again I will say and believe that anyone who answers yes to this is either ignorant or very pure of heart and can't conceive this is an issue because it's not in their heart or mind to be a bigot.

you are correct. black folks are over represented on the teams as well.


as a world, as a nation......there are still many folks with issues regarding race..... but I honestly believe that NFL owners don't give a damn as long as a coach wins games.because it makes them millions of dollars....and GREEN is everybodies favorite color.

 

[Jetstream Green]

It really does not matter who is on the list. A team is not required to sign anyone of any particular color, just interview someone on the list. A team will sign who they want to

 

[Cardiac]

you are correct. black folks are over represented on the teams as well.


as a world, as a nation......there are still many folks with issues regarding race..... but I honestly believe that NFL owners don't give a damn as long as a coach wins games.because it makes them millions of dollars....and GREEN is everybodies favorite color.

The report, which compiled nearly fifteen years of statistical data, found (among other conclusions) that African American coaches generally won more games per year and led their teams to more playoff games than their Caucasian counterparts, and that African American coaches who were terminated during the period studied had generally won more games than Caucasian coaches who were let go in the same timeframe.

http://cmcplegalnews.wordpress.com/...less-filling-revisiting-the-nfls-rooney-rule/

I'll go with pure of heart in your case Oaken.

I looked it up and 70% of NFL players are black. I guess we should assume that blacks just don't have the ability/skills to be coaches? It's either that or there is a huge miss in the interviewing processes within the NFL. If not this then there is still several NFL owners who are racist.

 

[cardpa]

The report, which compiled nearly fifteen years of statistical data, found (among other conclusions) that African American coaches generally won more games per year and led their teams to more playoff games than their Caucasian counterparts, and that African American coaches who were terminated during the period studied had generally won more games than Caucasian coaches who were let go in the same timeframe.

http://cmcplegalnews.wordpress.com/...less-filling-revisiting-the-nfls-rooney-rule/

I'll go with pure of heart in your case Oaken.

I looked it up and 70% of NFL players are black. I guess we should assume that blacks just don't have the ability/skills to be coaches? It's either that or there is a huge miss in the interviewing processes within the NFL. If not this then there is still several NFL owners who are racist.

Sorry Cardiac but a report that is 12 years old doesn't hold water anymore. The report was issued in 2002. How about some report or study that is of more recent vintage. My issue here is strictly with the age of the report not the content of it. This is just another instance where anyone can pull up something to support their position regardless of how relevant it is.

Leaving the date of the report out doesn't lend you a lot of credence. Sorry just how I see it.

 

[Cardiac]

Sorry Cardiac but a report that is 12 years old doesn't hold water anymore. The report was issued in 2002. How about some report or study that is of more recent vintage. My issue here is strictly with the age of the report not the content of it. This is just another instance where anyone can pull up something to support their position regardless of how relevant it is.

Leaving the date of the report out doesn't lend you a lot of credence. Sorry just how I see it.

So it was a problem in 2002 and isn't now? History has shown us that discrimination was a huge problem in this country. Since the Rooney rule 8 black HC's were hired (IIRC). 5 SB appearances by black HC's in that time.

I have looked for a more recent report but haven't had any luck. Feel free to do the same yourself.

I'm actually surprised that anyone would actually need data and reports to realize there is a problem with the hiring practices in the NFL. Strides have been made but there is more than a little way to go to fix the problem.

This country has come a long way with reducing discrimination in the work place but it's not fixed. Why do males earn more than females with similar titles and job requirements?

So go ahead a look for a reason to dismiss me and my credibility if it helps keep your opinion from changing.

 

[kerouac9]

This is the dumbest thread that comes up every offseason. If you don't particularly care if a minority candidate gets an interview then why are you here bellyaching?

Take a look at an example where there ISN'T a Rooney Rule--NCAA football. How many FBS head coaches are black? 15 out of 120! Clearly, the Rooney Rule has done an excellent job giving minority candidates access to the head coaching pipeline in comparison with a similar system that doesn't have interviewing preferences.

If we can agree that it's a good thing that minority candidates get access to the interview process, and we agree that owners and GMs can hire whomever they consider to be the best candidate, does it matter whether or not the Rooney Rule is "obsolete"? If everyone collectively decided to exclusively use crosswalks, what's the point of taking Jaywalking ordinances off the books?

 

[GuernseyCard]

This is the dumbest thread that comes up every offseason. If you don't particularly care if a minority candidate gets an interview then why are you here bellyaching?

Take a look at an example where there ISN'T a Rooney Rule--NCAA football. How many FBS head coaches are black? 15 out of 120! Clearly, the Rooney Rule has done an excellent job giving minority candidates access to the head coaching pipeline in comparison with a similar system that doesn't have interviewing preferences.

If we can agree that it's a good thing that minority candidates get access to the interview process, and we agree that owners and GMs can hire whomever they consider to be the best candidate, does it matter whether or not the Rooney Rule is "obsolete"? If everyone collectively decided to exclusively use crosswalks, what's the point of taking Jaywalking ordinances off the books?

Excellent.

 

[cardpa]

So it was a problem in 2002 and isn't now? History has shown us that discrimination was a huge problem in this country. Since the Rooney rule 8 black HC's were hired (IIRC). 5 SB appearances by black HC's in that time.

I have looked for a more recent report but haven't had any luck. Feel free to do the same yourself.

I'm actually surprised that anyone would actually need data and reports to realize there is a problem with the hiring practices in the NFL. Strides have been made but there is more than a little way to go to fix the problem.

This country has come a long way with reducing discrimination in the work place but it's not fixed. Why do males earn more than females with similar titles and job requirements?

So go ahead a look for a reason to dismiss me and my credibility if it helps keep your opinion from changing.

You are missing my point. Don't use decade old data to prop up the point you are trying to make, use more relevant data or a comparison. I don't disagree with the point you are making. If you had stated that in 2002 Black coaches won X percent more games than their white counterparts and today it is now X percent I could say nice analysis. Failing to include the year of the data you presented is no different than the news channels throwing out a sound bit which presents what someone said in a different light and conveniently omitting the rest which changes the meaning entirely.

I am arguing with how you presented it not the content of it. Full disclosure if you will.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

This is the dumbest thread that comes up every offseason. If you don't particularly care if a minority candidate gets an interview then why are you here bellyaching?

Take a look at an example where there ISN'T a Rooney Rule--NCAA football. How many FBS head coaches are black? 15 out of 120! Clearly, the Rooney Rule has done an excellent job giving minority candidates access to the head coaching pipeline in comparison with a similar system that doesn't have interviewing preferences.

If we can agree that it's a good thing that minority candidates get access to the interview process, and we agree that owners and GMs can hire whomever they consider to be the best candidate, does it matter whether or not the Rooney Rule is "obsolete"? If everyone collectively decided to exclusively use crosswalks, what's the point of taking Jaywalking ordinances off the books?

BOOM! Spot on.

 

[Cardiac]

You are missing my point. Don't use decade old data to prop up the point you are trying to make, use more relevant data or a comparison. I don't disagree with the point you are making. If you had stated that in 2002 Black coaches won X percent more games than their white counterparts and today it is now X percent I could say nice analysis. Failing to include the year of the data you presented is no different than the news channels throwing out a sound bit which presents what someone said in a different light and conveniently omitting the rest which changes the meaning entirely.

I am arguing with how you presented it not the content of it. Full disclosure if you will.

Gotcha. It was not intentional on my part to be deceptive, that's why I provided the link. I was debating with Oaken and there were several posts from both us and I think most of us sometimes get off track or lose what the starting debating point was.

The point I was trying to make was that the Rooney Rule was needed and there still may need to be some tweaking. Anyone who get's upset because of this rule baffles me. K9's post is spot on.

 

[Duckjake]

Slightly off the subject but interesting story about the Cardinals and racism from 1968.

http://si.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1081429/1/index.htm

Oddly enough the Cards went 9-4-1 in 1968. Also the author refers to the Cardinals numerous losses yet in the 5 prior seasons the Cards were 37-29-4. A record we'd have been ecstatic about any time between 1977 and 2007.