Is Wes Johnson a 2 or a 3?

[JCSunsfan]

Just wondering. I like what I have seen so far in the young man. I could seem him starting at the 2 but not the 3.

 

[Superbone]

For some reason, he reminds me a lot of former Sun Walter Davis who started out as a small forward and was moved to SG. Same build type and both with smooth jumpers.

 

[Roca Dolla]

he is the real 3!

 

[Mainstreet]

For some reason, he reminds me a lot of former Sun Walter Davis who started out as a small forward and was moved to SG. Same build type and both with smooth jumpers.

I was thinking the same thing.

 

[Bodha]

Enjoy the good play while it lasts.


He cant keep this up for an entire season. Hes just not that good. You cant up your game that much overnight.

ex: Robin Lopez. Hes KILLING it in New orleans. Odds he puts up more than 10 double doubles over the course of the season? slim

 

[AzStevenCal]

Enjoy the good play while it lasts.


He cant keep this up for an entire season. Hes just not that good. You cant up your game that much overnight.

ex: Robin Lopez. Hes KILLING it in New orleans. Odds he puts up more than 10 double doubles over the course of the season? slim

I'm not a big Robin Lopez fan but if he ever got his head on straight, he'd put up a lot more than 10 double doubles in a season. He showed glimpses of what he can be until his back problems a couple of years ago. I also think it's way too early to write off Wes Johnson. He was the number 4 pick for a reason. It's probably safe to bet against each of these guys but it wouldn't be much of a stretch for either of them to beat the odds.

Steve

 

[Chaz]

Wes needs to develop some skills to play a guard position.

He can run the floor and shoot the ball. He plays bigger than his size on defense so he can qualify as a forward. He needs to improve his ball handling and decision making to be a good guard.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Enjoy the good play while it lasts.


He cant keep this up for an entire season. Hes just not that good. You cant up your game that much overnight.

ex: Robin Lopez. Hes KILLING it in New orleans. Odds he puts up more than 10 double doubles over the course of the season? slim

Not saying he will end up like Joe Johnson, but he is in a similar situation as JJ. They were both drafted in the top ten and neither made it with their first team. As a matter of fact JJ was looking like a bust until D'Antoni took over as head coach than he averaged 16 PPG in the 03-04 season and the rest is history. This system is a lot different than most other systems in the NBA because it encourages shooters to jack up shots. WJ is a good shooter and is going to be asked to shoot a lot and he will be bitched at when he doesn't. I wouldn't be surprised one bit if he averaged 15+ PPG this year.

 

[slinslin]

The odds that Lopez puts up 10 double doubles in the season are not slim unless he gets injured..

He'd only have to get 10/10 one time in eight games...

Wes is a 3 at this point, if he could improve his ball-handling he would be a 2.

 

[Bodha]

I'm not a big Robin Lopez fan but if he ever got his head on straight, he'd put up a lot more than 10 double doubles in a season. He showed glimpses of what he can be until his back problems a couple of years ago. I also think it's way too early to write off Wes Johnson. He was the number 4 pick for a reason. It's probably safe to bet against each of these guys but it wouldn't be much of a stretch for either of them to beat the odds.

Steve

The NBA isnt like the NFL.

In the NBA draft, typically, only the #1 or 2 picks are probably going to have big careers. And also sometimes not at all.

The difference in talent between the 4th pick and the 14th isnt huge.

What was Nash? The 15th pick?

In the NFL, Lotto picks are very probably very good and the difference between picks gets greater as you go down.

In the NBA draft, its the first 3 guys or so, and everyone else is a total 50-50.

 

[slinslin]

The NBA isnt like the NFL.

In the NBA draft, typically, only the #1 or 2 picks are probably going to have big careers. And also sometimes not at all.

The difference in talent between the 4th pick and the 14th isnt huge.

What was Nash? The 15th pick?

In the NFL, Lotto picks are very probably very good and the difference between picks gets greater as you go down.

In the NBA draft, its the first 3 guys or so, and everyone else is a total 50-50.

You are totally wrong sorry. Even in the NBA draft position absolutely does mean something historically. The further you go down the less allstars you see generally.

You bring up Nash as if he was the rule when in fact he is an exception.

 

[Errntknght]

The NBA isnt like the NFL.

In the NBA draft, typically, only the #1 or 2 picks are probably going to have big careers. And also sometimes not at all.

The difference in talent between the 4th pick and the 14th isnt huge.

What was Nash? The 15th pick?

In the NFL, Lotto picks are very probably very good and the difference between picks gets greater as you go down.

In the NBA draft, its the first 3 guys or so, and everyone else is a total 50-50.

The NBA draft is not like that at all. If you look at the draft value analysis given at NBA Draft Analysis -- Expected value of a pick
you'll see the expected contribution (value) of a pick falls steadily downward in a roughly exponential form. The only real sharp drop is between 5th and 6th and I would bet that was just an artifact due to the sample size. The curve falls less fast toward the tail than a true exponential would but that is what you'd expect to see as teams start taking 'need' into account as well as their projection of value. Less than perfect projection of contribution has that effect as well.

 

[Phrazbit]

Wes Johnson cant dribble... in preseason when there no one is bothering to break a sweat on D then it wont stand out, but it will rear its head once the games start.

 

[Phrazbit]

I'm not a big Robin Lopez fan but if he ever got his head on straight, he'd put up a lot more than 10 double doubles in a season. He showed glimpses of what he can be until his back problems a couple of years ago. I also think it's way too early to write off Wes Johnson. He was the number 4 pick for a reason. It's probably safe to bet against each of these guys but it wouldn't be much of a stretch for either of them to beat the odds.

Steve

Unfortunately he was the number four pick because he was supposed to be the most polished, NBA ready player in the draft. He was supposed to be a "high floor" draft pick but without the potential upside of some of the younger dudes that year. That he has looked so lost in the NBA is an awful sign. I hope he surprises but the Wolves gave up a 1st round pick just to get rid of Wes Johnson, so there are already a lot of people writing him off.

I believe the Suns have to make a decision on his option before the season starts, it will be interesting to see what they do.

 

[sunsfan88]

I highly doubt they pick up his option. I think they'll just let him be a FA and then if he plays well with us, then we'll resign him and maybe he would be willing to take a paycut to stay with the team and system he played good in.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Unfortunately he was the number four pick because he was supposed to be the most polished, NBA ready player in the draft. He was supposed to be a "high floor" draft pick but without the potential upside of some of the younger dudes that year. That he has looked so lost in the NBA is an awful sign. I hope he surprises but the Wolves gave up a 1st round pick just to get rid of Wes Johnson, so there are already a lot of people writing him off.

I believe the Suns have to make a decision on his option before the season starts, it will be interesting to see what they do.

I'm sorry but that just isn't so. He was the number 4 pick because of talent, because of performance. Yes, he was considered to be more NBA ready than most but it was largely due to his age (keep in mind he was also a transfer). It might have helped him in some circles but I assure you, age is just as likely (if not more so) to work against you. Also, they didn't give up a 1st round pick just to get rid of him. They gave up a first round pick and Johnson in return for three 2nd round picks and cash plus Cap space.

Steve

 

[Phrazbit]

I'm sorry but that just isn't so. He was the number 4 pick because of talent, because of performance. Yes, he was considered to be more NBA ready than most but it was largely due to his age (keep in mind he was also a transfer). It might have helped him in some circles but I assure you, age is just as likely (if not more so) to work against you. Also, they didn't give up a 1st round pick just to get rid of him. They gave up a first round pick and Johnson in return for three 2nd round picks and cash plus Cap space.

Steve

It was a salary dump... trading a player and a 1st round pick for 2nd rounders is the definition of dumping them. You dont see that happen with guys who are not either headcases, awful or grossly overpaid.

And I agree that being older, more often than not, works against you. But the perception about Johnson was that he was a NBA ready player who could immediately contribute. That he has looked so raw despite being an older player for his draft class is an enormous red flag and probably had a lot to do with why Minnesota already gave up on him.

 

[AzStevenCal]

It was a salary dump... trading a player and a 1st round pick for 2nd rounders is the definition of dumping them. You dont see that happen with guys who are not either headcases, awful or grossly overpaid.

And I agree that being older, more often than not, works against you. But the perception about Johnson was that he was a NBA ready player who could immediately contribute. That he has looked so raw despite being an older player for his draft class is an enormous red flag and probably had a lot to do with why Minnesota already gave up on him.

This post is quite a bit different than the one I was disagreeing with. I would have trouble arguing that it was not a salary dump but they didn't give up the value of an entire 1st round pick in order to accomplish that as your previous post stated. I also agree that the perception was that he'd be among the more developed players from that draft. But again, that is a far cry from your earlier post where you claimed that was the reason he was drafted.

I don't know what we have in Johnson but Minnesota has been pretty clueless for awhile so I'm not going to write him off just because they did. For whatever reason, he hasn't been able to impress and now it's his option year. All Minnesota really traded was one year of a guy they didn't really need.

Steve

 

[Mainstreet]

Wes Johnson may be a better than any player the Suns may be able to draft next year. I think the Suns likely will be sorry if they do not pick up the team option of $5,421,233 (per Hoopshype) for next season. Below is a link to a Paul Coro article at azcentral dated 10-14-12.

http://www.azcentral.com/sports/sun...-starting-to-turn-the-corner-offensively.html

http://hoopshype.com/salaries/phoenix.htm

 

[JCSunsfan]

This post is quite a bit different than the one I was disagreeing with. I would have trouble arguing that it was not a salary dump but they didn't give up the value of an entire 1st round pick in order to accomplish that as your previous post stated. I also agree that the perception was that he'd be among the more developed players from that draft. But again, that is a far cry from your earlier post where you claimed that was the reason he was drafted.

I don't know what we have in Johnson but Minnesota has been pretty clueless for awhile so I'm not going to write him off just because they did. For whatever reason, he hasn't been able to impress and now it's his option year. All Minnesota really traded was one year of a guy they didn't really need.

Steve

Is it my imagination or do players seem to have some difficulty playing alongside Kevin Love? I don't watch Minny enough to make a reasonable evaluation, but I seem to remember something about this from the Olympic team.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Is it my imagination or do players seem to have some difficulty playing alongside Kevin Love? I don't watch Minny enough to make a reasonable evaluation.

I think it's more that they've gone through a lot of changes at critical spots. They've lacked stability in coaching, in the front office and at the point guard position. Love might be a factor too but he's also been impacted by this lack of consistent direction.

Steve

 

[Phrazbit]

This post is quite a bit different than the one I was disagreeing with. I would have trouble arguing that it was not a salary dump but they didn't give up the value of an entire 1st round pick in order to accomplish that as your previous post stated. I also agree that the perception was that he'd be among the more developed players from that draft. But again, that is a far cry from your earlier post where you claimed that was the reason he was drafted.

I don't know what we have in Johnson but Minnesota has been pretty clueless for awhile so I'm not going to write him off just because they did. For whatever reason, he hasn't been able to impress and now it's his option year. All Minnesota really traded was one year of a guy they didn't really need.

Steve

But his value was so low they had to pair him with a 1st round pick just to be rid of him.

I agree, David Khan regularly screws the pooch, but I think the bigger condemnation was drafting a 23 year old 4th overall to begin with.

I hope he surprises, but I dont think its too early to think Wes Johnson is a gigantic bust. The guy had one good year in a gimmick system in college, was older when he came out and has been lost in the league.

Side note about Khan, its amazing Minnesota has as much talent as they do in-spite of how stupid he is. He has completely whiffed on multiple top 5 picks, every offseason he hands out a 20+ million dollar contract to a bench player... and yet... I think they are probably going to push for 45-50 wins this year.

 

[Superbone]

I hope he surprises, but I dont think its too early to think Wes Johnson is a gigantic bust.

I strongly disagree. You might be able to say that at the end of this season but I hope not.

 

[AzStevenCal]

But his value was so low they had to pair him with a 1st round pick just to be rid of him.

I agree, David Khan regularly screws the pooch, but I think the bigger condemnation was drafting a 23 year old 4th overall to begin with.

I hope he surprises, but I dont think its too early to think Wes Johnson is a gigantic bust. The guy had one good year in a gimmick system in college, was older when he came out and has been lost in the league.

Side note about Khan, its amazing Minnesota has as much talent as they do in-spite of how stupid he is. He has completely whiffed on multiple top 5 picks, every offseason he hands out a 20+ million dollar contract to a bench player... and yet... I think they are probably going to push for 45-50 wins this year.

You did it again. They didn't just pair him with a 1st round pick. They gave up the value of a protected 1st minus the value of 3 2nd round picks. Granted a first round pick has more value than 3 2nd round picks but it's not like the 2's are worthless. And, this is a team that needed veteran help a lot more than it did another rookie so a 1st round pick is probably a little less valuable to them.

You appear to be ignoring aspects of Johnson's college career. IIRC, he was rookie of the year his freshman year in a very good Big 12. Injuries hampered him the next year but he once again shone when he started over at Syracuse. I'm not sure what you mean by a gimmick system, they're much more gimmicky on defense than anything else and even still, nothing changes the fact that his biggest strength is that he's a good shooter.

I'm not going to argue the issue if you choose to write him off but you seem to be twisting the facts to support your argument here. I really believe he has a chance to be a solid starter. I hope he succeeds but let's face it, wing players that come into the league highly regarded and then disappoint their first couple of years rarely turn it around.

Steve

 

[Phrazbit]

I think the disconnect is coming on our views on the value of a 2nd round pick. For the most part they get tossed into trades because a team has to take "something" in return when they are giving a player away. IMO, it adds up to them worthless in trade scenarios unless a team is trying to dump someone.

The protected first alone is worth way more than a bunch of 2nd round picks, and that we got Wes Johnson on top of that spells out pretty clearly that Johnson was viewed as having a negative value in the trade... he was being dumped. I dont think his career can be declared toast yet, but he the evidence against him is pretty bad.