Is Wes Johnson a 2 or a 3?

[KloD]

The T-Wolves didn't give up a first to get rid of Johnson. They gave up a first in order to clear cap space to sign AK. They needed to get rid of salary and take back none. The Suns used their cap space to broker the deal and wanted a first round pick in order to do so.

 

[KloD]

Wes Johnson may be a better than any player the Suns may be able to draft next year. I think the Suns likely will be sorry if they do not pick up the team option of $5,421,233 (per Hoopshype) for next season. Below is a link to a Paul Coro article at azcentral dated 10-14-12.

http://www.azcentral.com/sports/sun...-starting-to-turn-the-corner-offensively.html

http://hoopshype.com/salaries/phoenix.htm

It's funny that you posted this. I came to the thread because I was thinking along the same lines. I believe Johnson is going to turn out much better than he's shown his first two seasons in the league. The nice thing is they have until the 31st to pick up the option. That's the same timeline OKC has to agree on an extension with Harden. If Harden does agree with OKC, I bet the Suns pick up the option. There isn't anyone else available next year (that the Suns could sign) worthy of a max contract. They could still be $8-10 million under the cap to make moves.

 

[Phrazbit]

The T-Wolves didn't give up a first to get rid of Johnson. They gave up a first in order to clear cap space to sign AK. They needed to get rid of salary and take back none. The Suns used their cap space to broker the deal and wanted a first round pick in order to do so.

The first pick had no impact on their cap. Its a future 1st. They had to give up the first in order to give away Johnson... Yes, dumping Johnson enabled them to sign AK47, but Johnson's value is so low that he couldnt be moved on his own, they had to pair him with a 1st round pick in order to get someone to take him off their hands.

Hopefully he turns it around, but you cant sugarcoat whats happened with him so far.

 

[carey]

Hopefully he turns it around, but you cant sugarcoat whats happened with him so far.

Pure speculation on my part, but had they been patient they could have dealt him with less compensation. They needed a team with cap room that could do the deal immediately so they had to give up the future 1st.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

The first pick had no impact on their cap. Its a future 1st. They had to give up the first in order to give away Johnson... Yes, dumping Johnson enabled them to sign AK47, but Johnson's value is so low that he couldnt be moved on his own, they had to pair him with a 1st round pick in order to get someone to take him off their hands.

Hopefully he turns it around, but you cant sugarcoat whats happened with him so far.

Still not that simple, the Suns were giving up Warrick, Lopez and a second rounder which at the time anyone would have said equaled more value than getting Wes Johnson by himself. Point is it wasn't just about what the Suns were getting, but what they had to give up as well. Essentially they got Johnson for Warrick and a second rounder and they got a first rounder for Lopez.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Still not that simple, the Suns were giving up Warrick, Lopez and a second rounder which at the time anyone would have said equaled more value than getting Wes Johnson by himself. Point is it wasn't just about what the Suns were getting, but what they had to give up as well. Essentially they got Johnson for Warrick and a second rounder and they got a first rounder for Lopez.

WJ honestly reminds me a lot of JJ. Both have really smooth jumpers and can make it from anywhere on the floor. Both were top ten picks that looked like they were going to be busts until they found the right system to play in. For Joe it was the D'Antoni system and though still a little early I believe Wes will play well in the Gentry system.

 

[Mainstreet]

WJ honestly reminds me a lot of JJ. Both have really smooth jumpers and can make it from anywhere on the floor. Both were top ten picks that looked like they were going to be busts until they found the right system to play in. For Joe it was the D'Antoni system and though still a little early I believe Wes will play well in the Gentry system.

Except JJ was a couple days shy of turning 20 when drafted if my math is correct. WJ, was considerably older when drafted.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Except JJ was a couple days shy of turning 20 when drafted if my math is correct. WJ, was considerably older when drafted.

What does that really have to do with anything? It's not like the years actually equate to more experience in high level competition. WJ only played 1 year against legit competition in college and has had 2 years in the league. JJ played 2 years against pretty good competition in college and played 3 seasons in the NBA before he broke out.

 

[AzStevenCal]

What does that really have to do with anything? It's not like the years actually equate to more experience in high level competition. WJ only played 1 year against legit competition in college and has had 2 years in the league. JJ played 2 years against pretty good competition in college and played 3 seasons in the NBA before he broke out.

I'm not sure if you're forgetting his 2 seasons at Iowa State or if you're taking a shot at Big 12 basketball. Either way, he had two strong years in college plus an injury plagued season where he was still one of the league's better players.

Steve

 

[JCSunsfan]

I am not sure what age has to do with anything. He certainly has 8-10 years left of a normal career, if he pans out. We never keep players that long anyway.

Our expectations for Johnson aren't what MInny's were. They used a #4 pick on him. If we get solid, consisten production, we have to be thrilled.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

I'm not sure if you're forgetting his 2 seasons at Iowa State or if you're taking a shot at Big 12 basketball. Either way, he had two strong years in college plus an injury plagued season where he was still one of the league's better players.

Steve

Regardless he has about the same amount of time playing against top tier talent as JJ had prior to breaking out, so their respective ages don't really matter.

 

[Mainstreet]

What does that really have to do with anything? It's not like the years actually equate to more experience in high level competition. WJ only played 1 year against legit competition in college and has had 2 years in the league. JJ played 2 years against pretty good competition in college and played 3 seasons in the NBA before he broke out.

Age has everything to do with it. JJ was near stardom in the NBA when he was age 23. Now maybe WJ can develop, but he is nowhere near JJ in terms of accomplishments age wise.

It's the difference between proven and unproven based upon progression when looking at age.

I hope WJ succeeds to play at a high level in the NBA but there is nothing to say he will except for his athletic skills and potential. Now if you want to ignore age, so be it. I want WJ to succeed as much as any Suns fan. If I were the Suns I would strongly consider picking up the team option on him as I think he may turn into a nice player based upon my observations in preseason.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Age has everything to do with it. JJ was near stardom in the NBA when he was age 23. Now maybe WJ can develop, but he is nowhere near JJ in terms of accomplishments age wise.

It's the difference between proven and unproven based upon progression when looking at age.

I hope WJ succeeds to play at a high level in the NBA but there is nothing to say he will except for his athletic skills and potential. Now if you want to ignore age, so be it. I want WJ to succeed as much as any Suns fan. If I were the Suns I would strongly consider picking up the team option on him as I think he may turn into a nice player based upon my observations in preseason.

Unless they've decided they don't like Wesley himself, I think they have to pick up his option. Maybe he's Joe Johnson and maybe he's closer to Wesley Person but either way, he's worth keeping IMO.

Steve

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Age has everything to do with it. JJ was near stardom in the NBA when he was age 23. Now maybe WJ can develop, but he is nowhere near JJ in terms of accomplishments age wise.

It's the difference between proven and unproven based upon progression when looking at age.

I hope WJ succeeds to play at a high level in the NBA but there is nothing to say he will except for his athletic skills and potential. Now if you want to ignore age, so be it. I want WJ to succeed as much as any Suns fan. If I were the Suns I would strongly consider picking up the team option on him as I think he may turn into a nice player based upon my observations in preseason.

I disagree, I think it's more about basketball experience and WJ doesn't have more basketball experience against high competition than JJ had when he broke out. JJ was in his 4th NBA season when he broke out, but WJ is now entering his 3rd season. All age means is that it is less likely that he could be good for as long as a guy that breaks out when he's younger, but it doesn't necessarily make it less likely that he will break out altogether.

 

[Chaplin]

I disagree, I think it's more about basketball experience and WJ doesn't have more basketball experience against high competition than JJ had when he broke out. JJ was in his 4th NBA season when he broke out, but WJ is now entering his 3rd season. All age means is that it is less likely that he could be good for as long as a guy that breaks out when he's younger, but it doesn't necessarily make it less likely that he will break out altogether.

Do you mean high competition in college or in the NBA? Because all teams play each other in the NBA, so outside of the year difference, there is no issue with higher competition.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Do you mean high competition in college or in the NBA? Because all teams play each other in the NBA, so outside of the year difference, there is no issue with higher competition.

Both combined WJ has had 3 years of college and 2 years in the NBA and JJ at that point had 2 years in college and the 3 in the NBA.

 

[Phrazbit]

Still not that simple, the Suns were giving up Warrick, Lopez and a second rounder which at the time anyone would have said equaled more value than getting Wes Johnson by himself. Point is it wasn't just about what the Suns were getting, but what they had to give up as well. Essentially they got Johnson for Warrick and a second rounder and they got a first rounder for Lopez.

Really? Lopez was a free agent who the Suns were unwilling to offer more than 1 year to, Warrick had a crazy amount of negative value, everyone here was thrilled to see him go, and 2nd round picks are fodder. All that really proves is that Johnson had absolutely no value and was getting dumped by Minnesota and a 1st was the price that Minny had to pay in order to get rid of his contract.

And as to the Wes Johnson vs Joe Johnson debate: First, they dont remind me anything of eachother besides in name. JJ had point guard level ball handling skills, while Wes Johnson cant dribble. And seconly age has EVERYTHING to do with development. To put it in perspective how far off Wes Johnson's development is... by the time Joe Johnson was Wes' age he was entering his 2nd season... as an Atlanta Hawk!

 

[elindholm]

Wes Johnson looks like a poor man's Rashard Lewis to me.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Really? Lopez was a free agent who the Suns were unwilling to offer more than 1 year to, Warrick had a crazy amount of negative value, everyone here was thrilled to see him go, and 2nd round picks are fodder. All that really proves is that Johnson had absolutely no value and was getting dumped by Minnesota and a 1st was the price that Minny had to pay in order to get rid of his contract.

And as to the Wes Johnson vs Joe Johnson debate: First, they dont remind me anything of eachother besides in name. JJ had point guard level ball handling skills, while Wes Johnson cant dribble. And seconly age has EVERYTHING to do with development. To put it in perspective how far off Wes Johnson's development is... by the time Joe Johnson was Wes' age he was entering his 2nd season... as an Atlanta Hawk!

I still don't really agree with this, I mean if were talking about a guy who is 30 or something than sure, but WJ is 25 and doesn't have a lot of experience in the NBA. I personally believe the most important thing for development is experience against high level competition and being in a system that suits you're game. As far as the ball handling is concerned you are correct, but I never said that I thought they were the same, but that WJ kinda reminded me of JJ when he was younger.

 

[slinslin]

Wes Johnson looks like a poor man's Rashard Lewis to me.

Steve Smith without the ballhandling/passing.

Anyway Johnson's rookie year was not that bad and he still only has 2 seasons under his belt one of which was the lockout year and he also his wife got twins at the time so the focus was not basketball during that 2nd year.

He can still become a very good player clearly. At least he should be a decent role player for years. Doesn't look like a total bust to me at all.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Wes Johnson looks like a poor man's Rashard Lewis to me.

Early Rashard Lewis or the more recent version?

 

[KloD]

The first pick had no impact on their cap. Its a future 1st. They had to give up the first in order to give away Johnson... Yes, dumping Johnson enabled them to sign AK47, but Johnson's value is so low that he couldnt be moved on his own, they had to pair him with a 1st round pick in order to get someone to take him off their hands.

Hopefully he turns it around, but you cant sugarcoat whats happened with him so far.

That's just not true. Show me a trade where the team that brokers the deal using their capspace did not recieve a draft pick. Better yet, one where they didn't get a first round pick. The Suns wern't going to be a part of the deal without getting a first round pick. They took on other contracts too to allow the deal to work. Minn. may not have wanted Johnson over the cap space to sign AK, but the first round pick was for brokering the deal and allowing Minn. to not take anyone back.

 

[Phrazbit]

That's just not true. Show me a trade where the team that brokers the deal using their capspace did not recieve a draft pick. Better yet, one where they didn't get a first round pick. The Suns wern't going to be a part of the deal without getting a first round pick. They took on other contracts too to allow the deal to work. Minn. may not have wanted Johnson over the cap space to sign AK, but the first round pick was for brokering the deal and allowing Minn. to not take anyone back.

It is true, you even spelled out how true it is... the Suns used their cap space to take on Johnson, because minnesota was dumping him. The 1st round pick was the price Minnesota had to pay in order to clear the space, because Johnson is a worthless player in terms of trade value.

Taking the 2nds is what allowed Minnesota to not take any players back, and thats what 2nds are used for in these kinds of trades, they are the "something" a team gets when they really want nothing.

If a guy isnt a complete disaster or grossly overpaid then you dont need to pair him with a 1st just to get rid of him.

 

[Phrazbit]

I still don't really agree with this, I mean if were talking about a guy who is 30 or something than sure, but WJ is 25 and doesn't have a lot of experience in the NBA. I personally believe the most important thing for development is experience against high level competition and being in a system that suits you're game. As far as the ball handling is concerned you are correct, but I never said that I thought they were the same, but that WJ kinda reminded me of JJ when he was younger.

Maybe if you were talking about a different circumstance but the problem is Johnson was not some guy who was supposed to be raw and a developmental player. Johnson's draft slot had a lot to do with how NBA ready he was supposed to be. Its hard to claim he his problem is experience when the original draw to him as a pick was his maturity as a player.

 

[SunsTzu]

That's just not true. Show me a trade where the team that brokers the deal using their capspace did not recieve a draft pick. Better yet, one where they didn't get a first round pick.

Odom to Dallas(Mavs technically received a 2nd pick but they are the ones that gave up a 1st), BJ Mullens to Bobcats who sent 2nd round pick to Thunder, Barbosa to Pacers who sent 2nd round pick to Raptors, Hornets gave up a 2nd to take on Xavier Henry without getting a pick back. Those are all from last year alone.

Then there is the Beasley trade to Minnesota from Maimi that the Heat needed to do in order to sign the big 3's Dream Team buddy Mike Miller. This is a similar situation in that both players were recent very high picks but the Wolves gave up 2 2nd round picks to acquire Beasley however they needed to include a 1st to unload Johnson. Then you can also factor in that the Suns also shed Warrick so the actual capspace they used was very minimal.