Is Wes Johnson a 2 or a 3?

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Maybe if you were talking about a different circumstance but the problem is Johnson was not some guy who was supposed to be raw and a developmental player. Johnson's draft slot had a lot to do with how NBA ready he was supposed to be. Its hard to claim he his problem is experience when the original draw to him as a pick was his maturity as a player.

So because he was labeled as an "NBA ready" talent that means that he can't make improvements after his first couple seasons? Is that some sort of law of physics or something? Also something I haven't even mentioned that can make a big difference is confidence. When a player goes from having little to no confidence and then goes somewhere else where they instill that confidence, that can make a big difference.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Also there is one other thing to consider and that is that most lottery picks at 25 years old have played about 5-6 years in the NBA. So in those cases where those players are busts at 25 they have had 5-6 years to prove they can play and they didn't, but WJ still has only played 2 years in the NBA so his clock won't hit that point until he is 28-29.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Based on skills, Wes Johnson is a 3. He is deceptively fast. He covers alot of ground quickly with very long strides. He seems to be a decent defender that really frustrates with his long arms.

Interestingly enough, Beasley could be a 2. Now that would be an interesting lineup.

1. Dragic
2. Beasley
3. Johnson
4. Morris or Scola
5. Gortat

I just don't think Dudley should be a starter. We know what we have in him, and while he is a great locker room guy, and a super sub off the bench, a team with Dudley as a starter is probably not a high caliber team. We might as well start Johnson and see what we have in him. If we have dreams of Harden next summer, we better see what we have in Johnson first.

 

[slinslin]

Beasley is not a 2.

The major problem I see for the Suns is that all their players could be categorized as scorers/shooters.

The only exceptions are Marshall who is a distributor, Tucker who is only a defender/hustle player and Jemaine O'Neal that will be a defender/rebounder for us.

Dragic is a scorer first, Dudley is a shooter, Beasley is a scorer, Johnson is a shooter, Brown is a scorer, Morris is a scorer, Scola is a scorer, Gortat is a pick and roll scorer. The Suns don't really have player types whose strength are things like rebounding/defense.

Imo Beasley should be a 24ppg player for us but the way this starting lineup is made up I am starting to doubt that he will get enough touches. Scola wants to score 14-16ppg, Dragic wants to score 14-16ppg, Gortat wants to score 14-16ppg, Dudley wants to score 14-16ppg. Beasley is clearly our most talented shot creater/scorer but if the other guys in the lineup with him will take so many shots as well I am doubting that Beasley can play to his maximum. Someone will have to give up touches.

And then the question arises how valueable is a player like Scola or Morris in the starting lineup if he is just scoring 10ppg when he is not particularly good at rebounding/defense.

I am starting to think that our best starting lineup would actually be Dragic/Dudley/Beasley/O'Neal/Gortat

 

[Phrazbit]

So because he was labeled as an "NBA ready" talent that means that he can't make improvements after his first couple seasons? Is that some sort of law of physics or something? Also something I haven't even mentioned that can make a big difference is confidence. When a player goes from having little to no confidence and then goes somewhere else where they instill that confidence, that can make a big difference.

Also there is one other thing to consider and that is that most lottery picks at 25 years old have played about 5-6 years in the NBA. So in those cases where those players are busts at 25 they have had 5-6 years to prove they can play and they didn't, but WJ still has only played 2 years in the NBA so his clock won't hit that point until he is 28-29.

Like it or not age is a HUGE factor when teams take potential into consideration. If a guy looks lost at 25 years old then he probably isnt going to make it, no matter how long he has been in the league. Its not like these dudes are stored in Tupperware before they get drafted, to think a 25 year old should have the same learning curve as a 20 year old is absolutely insane. Johnson has been playing basketball for most of his life and there are some basic skills that NBA players require that he lacks, to think he just needs another year and he will be fine is ignoring just about every precedent before him. He might become serviceable, but the odds are stacked against him.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Like it or not age is a HUGE factor when teams take potential into consideration. If a guy looks lost at 25 years old then he probably isnt going to make it, no matter how long he has been in the league. Its not like these dudes are stored in Tupperware before they get drafted, to think a 25 year old should have the same learning curve as a 20 year old is absolutely insane. Johnson has been playing basketball for most of his life and there are some basic skills that NBA players require that he lacks, to think he just needs another year and he will be fine is ignoring just about every precedent before him. He might become serviceable, but the odds are stacked against him.

Don't get me wrong I understand where you're coming from and I understand that it isn't like he hasn't been playing at allover those extra 2-3 years, but keep in mind that a lot of being successful in professional sports is just being confident in your abilities. Just watch the guy play in college and tell me he doesn't have the ability to play in the NBA. Just go back and watch some tape of him last season and you will see someone who is very hesitant and being hesitant is classic sign of having a lack of confidence. I personally think that being with the Suns will be what he needed to get that confidence.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Beasley is not a 2.

The major problem I see for the Suns is that all their players could be categorized as scorers/shooters.

The only exceptions are Marshall who is a distributor, Tucker who is only a defender/hustle player and Jemaine O'Neal that will be a defender/rebounder for us.

Dragic is a scorer first, Dudley is a shooter, Beasley is a scorer, Johnson is a shooter, Brown is a scorer, Morris is a scorer, Scola is a scorer, Gortat is a pick and roll scorer. The Suns don't really have player types whose strength are things like rebounding/defense.

Imo Beasley should be a 24ppg player for us but the way this starting lineup is made up I am starting to doubt that he will get enough touches. Scola wants to score 14-16ppg, Dragic wants to score 14-16ppg, Gortat wants to score 14-16ppg, Dudley wants to score 14-16ppg. Beasley is clearly our most talented shot creater/scorer but if the other guys in the lineup with him will take so many shots as well I am doubting that Beasley can play to his maximum. Someone will have to give up touches.

And then the question arises how valueable is a player like Scola or Morris in the starting lineup if he is just scoring 10ppg when he is not particularly good at rebounding/defense.

I am starting to think that our best starting lineup would actually be Dragic/Dudley/Beasley/O'Neal/Gortat

I don't completely agree on Gortat he averaged a double double and a mediocre 1.5 BPG. I think it is ludicrous to say that he doesn't have a strength in rebounding, maybe not defense, but he is at a minimum a solid rebounder. I would also say that a strength of Scola is rebounding he does average almost 8 RPG in his career and I think a big part of his drop in boards last year was Camby and Dalembert.

 

[carey]

How can 8 rebounds per game be a strength when that's what Amare averaged here and was crucified for it?

 

[slinslin]

Btw, why do people call this team young? I just looked it up and the Suns are still the 10th oldest team in the entire NBA at 27.0

Our youngest players are Marshall 21, Morris 23 and Beasley 23. Nobody else is under 25.

Oklahoma, Denver, Portland, Houston, Cleveland and New Orleans all have an average age of under 25.

 

[SunsTzu]

How can 8 rebounds per game be a strength when that's what Amare averaged here and was crucified for it?

I think fans just thought Amare was capable of more because of his size and athletic ability. Though despite the numbers I'd rather have Scola fighting for a rebound than Amare or anyone currently on the Suns due to the fact he will consistently box out the opposition instead of just chasing the ball.

 

[slinslin]

How can 8 rebounds per game be a strength when that's what Amare averaged here and was crucified for it?

Because many fans are just stupid and need a scapegoat when things are not going the way they want.

Give it two years and Goran Dragic will be grilled for eratic PG play, because he will never be one of the top tier PGs.

 

[sunsfan88]

I am starting to think that our best starting lineup would actually be Dragic/Dudley/Beasley/O'Neal/Gortat

O'Neal and Gortat in at the same time?

Oh thank god you are not the HC!

Because many fans are just stupid and need a scapegoat when things are not going the way they want.

Give it two years and Goran Dragic will be grilled for eratic PG play, because he will never be one of the top tier PGs.

Who here is expecting him to be one of the top tier PGs? Pretty sure most people here and just expecting a solid performance from him night in and night out, nothing extravagant.

Also just out of your curiosity, who are in your "top tier" PGs?

 

[slinslin]

O'Neal and Gortat in at the same time?

Oh thank god you are not the HC!

O'Neal has played PF for most of his career. Thank god you know basketball, biggest troll on Suns boards.

 

[Phrazbit]

How can 8 rebounds per game be a strength when that's what Amare averaged here and was crucified for it?

Because Amare was fundamentally awful at rebounding and used his athletisim to get boards. If he put forth even half the effort he put into his jumpshot into in learning the fundamentals of rebounding then he would have been a monster on the glass. Amare might have a big rebounding night here and there but when we needed him to rebound against good fundamental teams he would get shut down. His effort on the glass (and defensively) in the 2010 playoffs was embarrassing.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Because Amare was fundamentally awful at rebounding and used his athletisim to get boards. If he put forth even half the effort he put into his jumpshot into in learning the fundamentals of rebounding then he would have been a monster on the glass. Amare might have a big rebounding night here and there but when we needed him to rebound against good fundamental teams he would get shut down. His effort on the glass (and defensively) in the 2010 playoffs was embarrassing.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Because Amare was fundamentally awful at rebounding and used his athletisim to get boards. If he put forth even half the effort he put into his jumpshot into in learning the fundamentals of rebounding then he would have been a monster on the glass. Amare might have a big rebounding night here and there but when we needed him to rebound against good fundamental teams he would get shut down. His effort on the glass (and defensively) in the 2010 playoffs was embarrassing.

Amare was a much better rebounder than you give him credit for. He was by no means the biggest guy out there and each year he lost a little of his athleticism but his numbers were still pretty good. They weren't great but Amare wasn't great so what's the big deal. Also, I'd love to see you back up this claim that he couldn't rebound against fundamental teams.

As for the 2010 playoffs, he did disappoint which was unusual because prior to this year his numbers always went up in the postseason. But, if you go back to that season you'll see he started struggling a couple weeks before the season ended. Whether he ran out of gas or was saving himself for his next team we'll never know for sure. For most of the second half he was arguably the best in the league until his dropoff late in the season. He was dominated by the Lakers but he was outsized, outmuscled and outnumbered in that game. It had nothing to do with fundamentals.

Steve

 

[ASUCHRIS]

He was dominated by the Lakers but he was outsized, outmuscled and outnumbered in that game. It had nothing to do with fundamentals.

Steve

Yeah, to be fair, Amare was battling almost alone against a front line of Bynum/Gasol/Odom. For any individual player that would be a challenge. For an out of gas, not always locked in Amare, not a great matchup.