Isaiah Thomas To Suns

[Sci Fi]

Its not the same game any more.

Innovation arises from changes in rules, talent availability, and other trends. Changes in the NBA rules in the last decade have changed the way the game is played inside. Players can no longer be manhandled on the perimeter which means that size and strength (while still an advantage) is not nearly the advantage it used to be. I really believe that if KJ had played under the present rules, he would have been one of the best ever. Allan Iverson's career would have lasted longer as well. That little guy took a beating that he would not have to endure today.

It is not just the Suns that are going with smaller lineups and stretch 4's. It is happening all over the league. Miami was in the finals without a real center at all. Roy Hibbert, who would have been dominant 15 years ago, was rendered irrelevant by simple strategies using the new rules for an advantage. In fact, the beginning of the end for Indiana was when the Suns, twice in a week in the middle of the season, spanked them with Frye playing outside and rendering Hibbert basically useless.

Its a new game. It demands new strategies and a different kinds of players.

Excellent post!

I'd add that SA basically won a title this year using this strategy as well as some other newer strategies from Pop. Coaching/creativity seems to be the new trend in the NBA. I like it and am glad that the Suns have a management team that is on the leading edge.

 

[BC867]

Its not the same game any more.

Innovation arises from changes in rules, talent availability, and other trends. Changes in the NBA rules in the last decade have changed the way the game is played inside. Players can no longer be manhandled on the perimeter which means that size and strength (while still an advantage) is not nearly the advantage it used to be. I really believe that if KJ had played under the present rules, he would have been one of the best ever. Allan Iverson's career would have lasted longer as well. That little guy took a beating that he would not have to endure today.

It is not just the Suns that are going with smaller lineups and stretch 4's. It is happening all over the league. Miami was in the finals without a real center at all...

Its a new game. It demands new strategies and a different kinds of players.

Granted. But isn't planning a lineup of three Point Guards, a Wing and a light Power Forward at any time going too far? Especially when you consider that 50% of the game is defense?

If basketball were played like football -- switching from offensive to defensive teams and back again whenever the ball changed hands -- perhaps it wouldn't sound so outrageous.

Until that happens, this combination on the court at any time would be taken advantage of even on a high school varsity team.

.C.......an undersized Power Forward
PF.......a Small Forward/Shooting Guard
SF.......a Point Guard
SG......a Point Guard
PG......a Point Guard

 

[JCSunsfan]

YOu have to see the play at 1:18 on this clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nR0jl3ClgM0

 

[JCSunsfan]

Granted. But isn't planning a lineup of three Point Guards, a Wing and a light Power Forward at any time going too far? Especially when you consider that 50% of the game is defense?

If basketball were played like football -- switching from offensive to defensive teams and back again whenever the ball changed hands -- perhaps it wouldn't sound so outrageous.

Until that happens, this combination on the court at any time would be taken advantage of even on a high school varsity team.

.C.......an undersized Power Forward
PF.......a Small Forward/Shooting Guard
SF.......a Point Guard
SG......a Point Guard
PG......a Point Guard

I sincerely doubt the Suns are going to run a three pg line up. They are going to run a line up of two combo guards or a pg and combo guard, a sf, f/pf, f/c. But the fact is that we have two centers on the roster who are typical center height and weight. Kieff is classic pf size. Marcus is a big sf. Green is a classic athletic sf size or a big 2. Warren is classic 3 size and I believe that is what he will play. If Kieff plays at center, we will be undersized, but I doubt that will happen alot.

 

[BC867]

I sincerely doubt the Suns are going to run a three pg line up. They are going to run a line up of two combo guards or a pg and combo guard, a sf, f/pf, f/c. But the fact is that we have two centers on the roster who are typical center height and weight. Kieff is classic pf size. Marcus is a big sf. Green is a classic athletic sf size or a big 2. Warren is classic 3 size and I believe that is what he will play. If Kieff plays at center, we will be undersized, but I doubt that will happen alot.

That sounds better than Post #118 (not yours). Whew!

 

[Mainstreet]

Every team needs a bigger lineup when the games turns into half court games. However, the need to play big much of the game is happening less and less with rule changes as pointed by JCSunsfan and the growing importance of stretch fours and fives. Teams need to be able to play both bigger ball and smaller ball at least for stretches of time.

I think the key to smaller ball is having enough quality depth (and I do mean quality depth) to run the ball the entire game without a significant drop off in talent. This is especially important at the PG position. I think this is why the addition of Isiah Thomas can really help the Suns. There should not be drop off of talent at the PG position when the Suns go to the bench. This lack of depth at the PG position and a lack of defense were major flaws in SSOL not that I want to go there.

 

[desertdawg]

Every team needs a bigger lineup when the games turns into half court games. However, the need to play big much of the game is happening less and less with rule changes as pointed by JCSunsfan and the growing importance of stretch fours and fives. Teams need to be able to play both bigger ball and smaller ball at least for stretches of time.

I think the key to smaller ball is having enough quality depth (and I do mean quality depth) to run the ball the entire game without a significant drop off in talent. This is especially important at the PG position. I think this is why the addition of Isiah Thomas can really help the Suns. There should not be drop off of talent at the PG position when the Suns go to the bench. This lack of depth at the PG position and a lack of defense were major flaws in SSOL not that I want to go there.

JC is making some good points, but I've been the one talking about the Spurs, the change of the game back to fast pace, Horny's comments on the "up tempo" he wants to utilize. JC has added good stuff about the rules changes, and I agree that we won't be running 3 guards most of the time.

We didn't really lose a dominating presence in Channing, he was just a presence. So we haven't lost much IMO. We have a lot of the same team returning, they surprised the League last year, and we should be off to a "running start" this year.

Small ball isn't the only way to go, you have to be versatile to even sniff a ring. But you have to work with what you got, with what's out there, and stay away from the impulse buys that could prevent you from obtaining the correct choices later down the road.

 

[JCSunsfan]

That sounds better than Post #118 (not yours). Whew!

Ha, he is yanking your chain. I could see that lineup when they are down by 10 with 2 minutes to go and need to do something desperate. But that is about it.

 

[JCSunsfan]

JC is making some good points, but I've been the one talking about the Spurs, the change of the game back to fast pace, Horny's comments on the "up tempo" he wants to utilize. JC has added good stuff about the rules changes, and I agree that we won't be running 3 guards most of the time.

We didn't really lose a dominating presence in Channing, he was just a presence. So we haven't lost much IMO. We have a lot of the same team returning, they surprised the League last year, and we should be off to a "running start" this year.

Small ball isn't the only way to go, you have to be versatile to even sniff a ring. But you have to work with what you got, with what's out there, and stay away from the impulse buys that could prevent you from obtaining the correct choices later down the road.

I think one of the most encouraging things about the Suns going forward is Hornacek. He seems to know how to see what is on the court and adjust, while using his own talent to the max. He isn't infatuated with small-ball, but will use it if he thinks it gives a specific advantage. DAntoni was determined to run his system no matter the circumstances.

It was Jeff that exposed the Pacers. They were never the same after those two games as other teams picked up on what he did.

 

[desertdawg]

I think one of the most encouraging things about the Suns going forward is Hornacek. He seems to know how to see what is on the court and adjust, while using his own talent to the max. He isn't infatuated with small-ball, but will use it if he thinks it gives a specific advantage. DAntoni was determined to run his system no matter the circumstances.

It was Jeff that exposed the Pacers. They were never the same after those two games as other teams picked up on what he did.

Agree, a huge upgrade from Gentry. Pops made Gentry look just plain silly at times, Horny has been one sharp cookie when it comes to a lot of the match ups. Not all of them, like when he continued to let the Dragon try to cover Chris Paul recently. I kept waiting for a switch, but I am confident enough in Horny to suspect there was other factors on the court so yeah, I think he's done a great job thus far.

 

[elindholm]

I could see that lineup (Thomas-Bledsoe-Dragic-Green-MkMorris) when they are down by 10 with 2 minutes to go and need to do something desperate. But that is about it.

It's going to be a lot more common than that, and furthermore, most of this board will say they like it. Mark my words.

 

[Cheesebeef]

It's going to be a lot more common than that, and furthermore, most of this board will say they like it. Mark my words.

I can see that. It will look a lot like the KJ/Kidd/Chapman/Person/Hot Rod team Ainge rolled out the year we took a 60 win Seattle team to the brink of elimination back in 1997 (I think that was the year...maybe it 1996). It was fun to watch, but a gimmick nonetheless that ultimately proved unsuccessful.

 

[SirStefan32]

Ha, he is yanking your chain. I could see that lineup when they are down by 10 with 2 minutes to go and need to do something desperate. But that is about it.

Or end of third quarter/ start of 4th to run an older team out of the gym, or any time you want to switch things up to change the momentum. I like small ball for short bursts. My problem is using it for extended periods of time.

 

[KloD]

I like what works. It depends on who your playing. If small ball works against some teams use it some, the ones it doesn't, don't. It really doesn't matter what groups they field next year, they will not be competing for a championship. I like everyone else want the young guys to get some play, but I also want to showcase those who might be traded. I don't understand why some are freaking out about what next seasons lineups will be? It's clear this team isn't done building. With all the claims that Sarver is preventing the Suns from getting a franchise guy, look at Dallas. They have struck out time and time again the past three years. Yet, Cuban is supposed to be well liked by players. Houston is having a nightmare offseason and has been rejected time and time again. The Suns will get their pieces in time. They IMO are being smart and still bringing in good assets and waiting for their opportunity. Doesn't mean they aren't trying, but even the Lakers have been getting scorned which I never thought would happen.

 

[mojorizen7]

I don't think that line-up is so far-fetched. I think it's highly likely we'll see that line-up or something similar to try to create mismatches and exploits slower players/teams.

And often be exploited right back...and once again be unable to counter if the 20 foot jumpers don't fall. No thanks.

I'm done with the high effort uphill scoring, scrappy volleyball tip drill rebounding thing.

 

[Russ Smith]

"Thomas is much better than Greivis Vasquez and earned the starting spot fair and square," SactownRoyalty.com editor Aykis shared via email to me last night. "Vasquez wasn't terrible, but the Kings offense proved to be much more efficient with Thomas on the floor than Vasquez and so did the defense. There were only two players last season that made the Kings better offensively and defensively according to Basketball-Reference's On-Off stats and they were DeMarcus Cousins and Isaiah Thomas."

http://www.brightsideofthesun.com/2...xth-man-isaiah-thomas-just-wants-to-be-wanted

Obviously he has his limitations as some of the bigger guards can abuse him at times in the post, but at least statistically he appears to do a lot better than people tend to give him credit for.

Interesting, Drexler said on camera last night that per advanced stats IT is one of the worst defenders in the league but he didn't name which advanced stat.

 

[Sci Fi]

Clyde wouldn't known an advanced stat if it hit him in the head.

I like Clyde but basketball is his game, not advanced stats.

 

[Mainstreet]

Clyde wouldn't known an advanced stat if it hit him in the head.

I like Clyde but basketball is his game, not advanced stats.

I'd take Clyde Drexler in his prime and forget about advanced stats.

 

[sunsfan88]

Small ball rarely ever works in the playoffs. That's why D'Antoni teams have had lot of seasons in which they got ton of regular season wins but never even sniffed the NBA finals.

 

[Sci Fi]

Yes, San Antonio had a difficult time winning the title last year with small ball. But they did it!!!!!!!

You should apply for a job at the Spur so they don't make that mistake again. Thay will thank you.

 

[BC867]

Yes, San Antonio had a difficult time winning the title last year with small ball. But they did it!!!!!!!

Luckily for them, they were playing a team with Chris Bosh as its "big".

I'd rather put a balanced team on the court than hope for an opponent equally unbalanced.

The Suns have depended on such luck for four and a half decades and have come up short.

Even Michael's Bulls always had 2 or 3 role playing Centers.

 

[sunsfan88]

Yes, San Antonio had a difficult time winning the title last year with small ball. But they did it!!!!!!!

You should apply for a job at the Spur so they don't make that mistake again. Thay will thank you.

And you should apply for an English course at some college. Learn what "rarely" means.

And Duncan played a huge role in the Spurs winning the title and he's about as good a big man there is. Diaw can also guard just about any big man in the league.

 

[Sci Fi]

Luckily for them, they were playing a team with Chris Bosh as its "big".

I'd rather put a balanced team on the court than hope for an opponent equally unbalanced.

The Suns have depended on such luck for four and a half decades and have come up short.

Even Michael's Bulls always had 2 or 3 role playing Centers.

Yes, Pop was surely lucky. Get a clue. JFC.

 

[desertdawg]

And you should apply for an English course at some college. Learn what "rarely" means.

And Duncan played a huge role in the Spurs winning the title and he's about as good a big man there is. Diaw can also guard just about any big man in the league.

Diaw can even play the guard position, he is a special hybrid, the type that smart coaches can create huge mismatches with.

 

[Covert Rain]

Dragic is our shooting guard. Stop calling him a PG.

Huh? Just because the Suns choose to play a player at SG doesn't make him a natural SG. I admit that Dragic might have the ability but that doesn't make him any less a PG. So why not call him that? Heck Indiana was trying to get him to shore up their PG position. Playing Amare at Center most that one season didn't make him any less a PF either or when the Suns have employed the two PG on the court strategy before.

If the Suns had a pure SG, Bledsoe and Dragic under contract do you seriously think we would have traded for Thomas? I am not so sure. More than likely Dragic would primarily back up the PG position while spending some time at SG giving whomever that would be a break. This feels like a very gimmicky and conciliatory move. Well.....we gave it the old college try and came up empty. Let's make this another fun season to keep butts in the seats until we can make another move.

What a monumental disappointing free agency period so far. It's not over until it's over though and maybe we have more moves up out sleeve. That doesn't mean I don't like Thomas or that I think it was a bad contract. Only that the motives here are probably more about run and gun fun and stock piling assets versus this really the Suns wanting three PG's with one playing out of position on the roster.