Isaiah Thomas To Suns

[BC867]

Dumars could play both PG and shooting guard like Dragic.

"Could play" is not the same as primary NBA level position.

Isn't it true that Joe Dumars was a Shooting Guard who could play the Point, whereas Goran Dragic is a Point Guard who can play the "2"?

My recollection is that Dumars' natural position was at the "2" while Dragic's natural position is at the "1".

 

[AzStevenCal]

"Could play" is not the same as primary NBA level position.

Isn't it true that Joe Dumars was a Shooting Guard who could play the Point, whereas Goran Dragic is a Point Guard who can play the "2"?

My recollection is that Dumars' natural position was at the "2" while Dragic's natural position is at the "1".

I think we make too much of positions. I'm pretty sure I mentioned this earlier but I was watching the NBA channel around playoff time and somebody (Stu Jackson?) made the comment that positions were created for the benefit of fans but that to coaches and players they were mostly meaningless. Although he was being clever I think there's a lot of truth to that statement.

You need to rebound the ball. It doesn't matter which spot it comes from. And you need to be able to shoot from the outside, set-up other players, defend the paint, harass the ball handler etc. and it just doesn't matter what labels you put on the players that do those things. As long as it's getting done.

Often times you get called one position or another based on what you can't do rather than what you can. Or sometimes you're called a shooting guard because your backcourt mate simply can't defend opposing shooting guards. And so on. I certainly think of Thomas as the point guard on that team but I can remember Dumars running the offense often.

Steve

 

[Mainstreet]

"Could play" is not the same as primary NBA level position.

Isn't it true that Joe Dumars was a Shooting Guard who could play the Point, whereas Goran Dragic is a Point Guard who can play the "2"?

My recollection is that Dumars' natural position was at the "2" while Dragic's natural position is at the "1".

I don't think the "Could play" argument as more than nitpicking.

As AzStevenCal said, I'm not much into labels except it helps identify what the player does on the court. I know when I watched the Pistons, they were often said to be running a two PG offense. Most every reference I read about Dumars describes him as being able to play shooting guard or point guard.

I guess I could make the argument that Dragic and Dumars should be called combo guards but that would be just another label.

 

[elindholm]

As AzStevenCal said, I'm not much into labels except it helps identify what the player does on the court. I know when I watched the Pistons, they were often said to be running a two PG offense. Most every reference I read about Dumars describes him as being able to play shooting guard or point guard.

Okay, but Dumars had standard SG skills -- catch-and-shoot, coming off screens, etc. -- that neither Dragic nor Bledsoe has. And, he was physical enough to defend other SGs, even though he wasn't that tall. You could line up him up against the other SGs in the league and not feel like you were giving something away.

None of that can be said for Dragic, never mind Bledsoe. So, you're right, it's just labels; but the real point is, the Thomas/Dumars pairing brought a much more diverse skill set between them than a Bledsoe/Dragic pairing does.

 

[SirStefan32]

Okay, but Dumars had standard SG skills -- catch-and-shoot, coming off screens, etc. -- that neither Dragic nor Bledsoe has. And, he was physical enough to defend other SGs, even though he wasn't that tall. You could line up him up against the other SGs in the league and not feel like you were giving something away.

None of that can be said for Dragic, never mind Bledsoe. So, you're right, it's just labels; but the real point is, the Thomas/Dumars pairing brought a much more diverse skill set between them than a Bledsoe/Dragic pairing does.

You know my feelings on the Bledsoe/ Dragic pairing, but I really think you are selling Dragic short here. Not disputing he's a better PG than SG, but I think he is a better SG than you give him credit for.

 

[Covert Rain]

Joe Dumars was a shooting guard.

Dumars could play both PG and shooting guard like Dragic.

He was a SG. He could play some minutes at PG but that is not the same as being able to play the PG as your primary position. Same with Dragic...he is a PG but no SG. Playing guys out of position and not to their #1 strength is inefficient unless for small stretches but not as your primary strategy. Huge difference.

 

[PhxGametime]

I like what I saw from Isaiah Thomas in 2nd home Game with kings, meanwhile Plumlee looked impressive. Bledsoe and Dragic both played really well so I worry defensively if either are moved but Thomas can light up scoreboard. I'm still hoping the Suns keep both players.

I'll check to see if Summer League Suns play today but if not I got 2 first regular Season games against kings for Suns fix later today lol.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Do you honestly think putting 3 PG on the court on the same time means all the sudden we get to the rim more? If it was that easy to get around big men clogging the lane...everyone would play 3 PGs. Show me a team that plays 3 PGs much and I will show you a team that gets dominated on both ends of the floor in the paint.

As long as the other 2 players on the floor can shoot as well than there would be no problem for those guys to get to the rim because the paint wouldn't be clogged.

 

[JCSunsfan]

"Could play" is not the same as primary NBA level position.

Isn't it true that Joe Dumars was a Shooting Guard who could play the Point, whereas Goran Dragic is a Point Guard who can play the "2"?

My recollection is that Dumars' natural position was at the "2" while Dragic's natural position is at the "1".

Isaiah played like Goran, Dumars played like Bledsoe. The size is almost exactly the same. Dumars was more of a defender than Isiah. The similarities are really close.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

I think a lot of people are stuck in the way the NBA used to be. When it was dominated by interior players and that is why they are so against small lineups. Yes even today there is a limit to how small you can go at least for long stretches of time, but you can certainly get away with smaller lineups now because there just aren't too many dominant big men anymore. Rule changes are probably a big reason for why this is the case now.

 

[Chaz]

I am not sure the standard position rules have such a rigorous application anymore.

At this level they are only roles in a scheme. Scoring guard, lead guard, stretch four, or whatever you want to call the "position" the coach has the player in.
The position numbers are convenient for diagramming plays but in a real game situation they are players with unique skill sets to be utilized creatively.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

I am not sure the standard position rules have such a rigorous application anymore.

At this level they are only roles in a scheme. Scoring guard, lead guard, stretch four, or whatever you want to call the "position" the coach has the player in.
The position numbers are convenient for diagramming plays but in a real game situation they are players with unique skill sets to be utilized creatively.

Exactly. Smart poster. Please post more

 

[elindholm]

I am not sure the standard position rules have such a rigorous application anymore.

At this level they are only roles in a scheme. Scoring guard, lead guard, stretch four, or whatever you want to call the "position" the coach has the player in.
The position numbers are convenient for diagramming plays but in a real game situation they are players with unique skill sets to be utilized creatively.

All true. But, whatever labels you want to use, a Bledsoe/Dragic backcourt gives up a lot on both ends of the floor compared to a more traditional one.

 

[hafey2]

All true. But, whatever labels you want to use, a Bledsoe/Dragic backcourt gives up a lot on both ends of the floor compared to a more traditional one.

That's simply not true. It is wildly and grossly inaccurate.

In the 887 minutes Dragic and Bledsoe played together last year the Suns outscored their opponents by 10.2 points per 100 possessions. That's the same as Lebron/Bosh, better than Westbrook/Durant. They were unquestionably effective playing together last year.

 

[Chaz]

All true. But, whatever labels you want to use, a Bledsoe/Dragic backcourt gives up a lot on both ends of the floor compared to a more traditional one.

Gives up what exactly in your view?

Shooting guards in the post? Penetration on the perimeter?

Defensive deficiencies can be masked easily enough if the team rebounding is halfway decent and they can force some turnovers over the course of the game. Plus there is sometimes an advantage to be gained by enticing teams to leave their comfort zone to employ an unfamiliar strategy just to exploit a mismatch.

The most troubling stat to me and the biggest problem in my view is the lack of assists as a team. Both guards seem to be scoring guards and are generally creating their own offense instead of breaking down defenses to setup other players. This tends to create a lot of one on one and isolation play (and a lot of standing around) across the entire team. I expect Thomas will probably reinforce rather than reverse this tendency.

 

[Phrazbit]

All true. But, whatever labels you want to use, a Bledsoe/Dragic backcourt gives up a lot on both ends of the floor compared to a more traditional one.

I agree with you frequently but not here. I think you're getting overly caught up on labels and position. Remove the names and the thought of position from Bledsoe and Dragic's stats and they were one of the elite back courts in the NBA last season while paired together.

Green, the Morri, Plumlee, just about everyone who played along side them had career years too, and not just career years but stats most of us did not think them capable of producing at all. Its really hard to fathom what suffered as a result of that pairing. When Bledsoe was out and we had a much more "traditional" Green/Dragic backcourt we certainly did not see an improvement, especially on the defensive end where things slipped dramatically, and thats still with Green being more productive than the average SG during that time.

 

[elindholm]

In the 887 minutes Dragic and Bledsoe played together last year the Suns outscored their opponents by 10.2 points per 100 possessions. That's the same as Lebron/Bosh, better than Westbrook/Durant.

It's also a very small sample size. If they can keep it up for a full season, I'll be more impressed.

Gives up what exactly in your view?

Shooting guards in the post? Penetration on the perimeter?

The ability to shoot anywhere over decent-sized defenders, for one. You're never going to see Dragic or Bledsoe create space one-on-one for a 17-footer against a SG, which is something that pretty much any above-average SG can do.

Defensive deficiencies can be masked easily enough if the team rebounding is halfway decent and they can force some turnovers over the course of the game.

This is the stock theory for how the liability of small ball can be mitigated, but it almost never works in practice. After getting off to a surprisingly good defensive start last season -- possibly because Dragic was hurt -- the Suns returned to being one of the worst defensive teams in the league. There were a lot of reasons for that, but lack of backcourt size was certainly one of them.

The most troubling stat to me and the biggest problem in my view is the lack of assists as a team. Both guards seem to be scoring guards and are generally creating their own offense instead of breaking down defenses to setup other players.

The other explanation is that the team lacks finishers. Dragic's 5.9 apg was fine by the standards of starting PGs, low but not horribly so (19th in the league, with the only non-PGs in front of him being James and Harden). I agree that Dragic is not especially good at setting up his teammates, and of course Bledsoe is far worse, but to me the lack of finishers is the bigger problem.

That said, the biggest problem on the team is on the defensive end, and it's a chain reaction from the two-PG set. Since neither Dragic nor Bledsoe can space the floor without the ball in his hands, you have to use forwards for that. A forward who plays soft on the offensive end will usually play soft on the defensive end too. So now you have soft-defense forwards in order to make up for the fact that neither of your guards can space the floor.

 

[elindholm]

Defensive deficiencies can be masked easily enough if the team rebounding is halfway decent and they can force some turnovers over the course of the game.

I should put this another way:

If a fundamentally flawed defensive lineup works their asses off, they can become decent defensively.

If a fundamentally sound defensive lineup works their asses off, they can become excellent defensively.

A gimmicky small-ball lineup can, with hard work, become competent defensively, but they'll never be great. D'Antoni was satisfied with this, saying on many occasions, "If we can defend just a little, we'll be okay." But what happened was that when the opponent turned up their defense, the Suns' big offensive edge was neutralized. That's why, even during the Nash heyday, they couldn't excel in the playoffs the way they did in the regular season.

 

[Phrazbit]

I see no reason that Dragic and Bledsoe can not be part of sound defensive lineup. A ton of the best defense teams get by with only one good defensive guard. What kills the Suns defensively is the front court. We were the 2nd best in the entire league at defending the 3pt line. Telling me that our guards were the reason we were poor defensively is a really hard sell. The Morri, Frye, Plumlee (for most of the year) and everyone else who played 4/5 were reeeeeally sub par defenders. Big men tore us apart (figuratively... not literally... pervs), I expect it to be more of the same this year, because we did little to address the problem. Hopefully Plumlee remembers they way he played at the start of last season when for about a month he was among the best bigs in the league at rim protection... rather than the rest of the year when he was among the worst.

I dont get what happened with him. He was doing the "jump straight up and contest" thing, it was working great, then suddenly he stopped contesting at all.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I am not sure the issue. Goran is typical size for a pg and can guard 1's and 2's. Bledsoe is typical size for a pg, but has exceptionally long arms and athleticism and seems to do VERY well guarding even bigger 2's as well as the speed to guard almost any 1 in the league. But you also have a 6-8 2 in Green who has the ability to slow down the very large guards and now Thomas, who, while he has some difficulties with larger guards has proven very effective with smaller guards on the perimeter.

I don't think we have any issues offensively OR defensively with our back court. Our big problem is with the pf and c positions. We have some decent players there, but they are really rotation/reserve level players. No one has risen to the level of clear starter material including Markieff and PJ.

 

[sunsfan88]

I am not sure the issue. Goran is typical size for a pg and can guard 1's and 2's. Bledsoe is typical size for a pg, but has exceptionally long arms and athleticism and seems to do VERY well guarding even bigger 2's as well as the speed to guard almost any 1 in the league. But you also have a 6-8 2 in Green who has the ability to slow down the very large guards and now Thomas, who, while he has some difficulties with larger guards has proven very effective with smaller guards on the perimeter.

I don't think we have any issues offensively OR defensively with our back court. Our big problem is with the pf and c positions. We have some decent players there, but they are really rotation/reserve level players. No one has risen to the level of clear starter material including Markieff and PJ.

The only way out defense would suck primarily because of our backcourt would be if Dragic and Thomas played together. That would be disastrous on the defensive end.

 

[Chaz]

The ability to shoot anywhere over decent-sized defenders, for one. You're never going to see Dragic or Bledsoe create space one-on-one for a 17-footer against a SG, which is something that pretty much any above-average SG can do.

I think Dragic is good at getting his shot off over taller players. Granted that has mostly been shown against MUCH taller players where his speed advantage is more of a threat. Bledsoe is still a head down drive to the basket player. I would love to see him develop that pull up 18ft jumper KJ had as a change up. I think with his speed it could be effective even at his height.

This is the stock theory for how the liability of small ball can be mitigated, but it almost never works in practice. After getting off to a surprisingly good defensive start last season -- possibly because Dragic was hurt -- the Suns returned to being one of the worst defensive teams in the league. There were a lot of reasons for that, but lack of backcourt size was certainly one of them.

While it may be a reason I don't remember that it was particularly significant. Dribble penetration and mistakes playing the pick and roll by recollection were much more significant factors.
Defense is nothing but a series of mitigation of advantage. There will always be excellent offensive players you are trying to stop in the NBA and great offense tends to beat great defense.

The other explanation is that the team lacks finishers. Dragic's 5.9 apg was fine by the standards of starting PGs, low but not horribly so (19th in the league, with the only non-PGs in front of him being James and Harden). I agree that Dragic is not especially good at setting up his teammates, and of course Bledsoe is far worse, but to me the lack of finishers is the bigger problem.

Good point. But as we have seen with Nash if average finishers are setup in a good position to finish it makes a huge difference. Hesitation by either player, bad spacing, and bad communication all can make even a successful offensive trip fail to record an assist.
On the other hand, as the Spurs have shown recently ball movement and player movement can negate the need for a tradition pass first point guard.

That said, the biggest problem on the team is on the defensive end, and it's a chain reaction from the two-PG set. Since neither Dragic nor Bledsoe can space the floor without the ball in his hands, you have to use forwards for that. A forward who plays soft on the offensive end will usually play soft on the defensive end too. So now you have soft-defense forwards in order to make up for the fact that neither of your guards can space the floor.

I think this is begging the question a little. It does not follow that forwards that space the floor on offense are necessarily soft on defense. Although, defense and consistent rebounding in the front court were significant issues for the Suns last year. They didn't get killed by Memphis last year because they had undersized guards.

I should put this another way:

If a fundamentally flawed defensive lineup works their asses off, they can become decent defensively.

If a fundamentally sound defensive lineup works their asses off, they can become excellent defensively.

A gimmicky small-ball lineup can, with hard work, become competent defensively, but they'll never be great. D'Antoni was satisfied with this, saying on many occasions, "If we can defend just a little, we'll be okay." But what happened was that when the opponent turned up their defense, the Suns' big offensive edge was neutralized. That's why, even during the Nash heyday, they couldn't excel in the playoffs the way they did in the regular season.

Again I am not really worried about a size mismatch in the back court I would be more concerned with rebounding efficiency in the front court which still needs attention.

In any event it is an interesting experiment and I think fun to watch the development under this GM and coach. I am less tied to an expectation of how it is supposed to be and just try to enjoy what happens. If they are winning and competing in the playoffs then success. I don't think there is one formula to a championship.


I could foresee a more traditional lineup in the years to come with.
Ennis
Goodwin
Warren
??PF??
Len

Until they can build the team they want they have to work with what they can get.

 

[Covert Rain]

Defense is nothing but a series of mitigation of advantage. There will always be excellent offensive players you are trying to stop in the NBA and great offense tends to beat great defense.

Since when? I think the opposite is true. Strong defense translates better in playoff success overall. Not that a strong offense can't make noise (see Suns). If memory serves me correctly, I remember someone posting on here a breakout through 2012. It showed were something like 11 out 12 teams who were top defensive teams in the league had made it to the conference finals and like almost a 3rd made it to the finals. That's compared so something like half that % of top offensive teams making it to the finals. I will have to find it again.

At any rate, I think defense is more pressure proof come playoff time. Fundamental defensive ability is more instinctual and easier to rely on from a team perspective. Offensively, most teams rely on a couple scorers to put the ball in the basket. Making shots when when the defense is putting enormous pressure on you is less effective IMO and more prone to go south.

 

[BC867]

You need to rebound the ball. It doesn't matter which spot it comes from. And you need to be able to shoot from the outside, set-up other players, defend the paint, harass the ball handler etc. and it just doesn't matter what labels you put on the players that do those things. As long as it's getting done.

How about . . . as long as it's getting done better than your opponent on most nights.

A lot of good comments have been posted on this thread, but this ain't bowling. Every moment of every game, every player has an opponent in his face.

The question is . . . over the course of a the season (and post-season) can a Dragic/Bledsoe starting backcourt be consistently better than their opponents?

And by being a small backcourt, can they stay healthy?

If they can't keep up or can't stay healthy, we'll have our answer.

Unless, of course, Bledsoe chooses to go somewhere else where he can be the leader of the backcourt. Or Dragic chooses the same when his contract is up.

 

[mojorizen7]

Who is this new Elindholm? Is it possible that he seen the light?

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Question for everyone who is a proponent of more smallball:
Are you confident that this roster will shoot lights out and get good shots consistently on a nightly basis to overcome the lack of offensive rebounding and defense at the rim?

Nash is not here anymore.