It will take years to undo the mess that Graves has created!!!

Duckjake

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nidan said:

Darn. It sounded like such a good theory.

What I still want to know is who is responsible for letting the top 3 WR's and #1 QB go in free agency after the 2002 season with no decent veteran replacements in the pipeline.

And who is responsible for hiring as head coach a guy who's defenses, with the exception of 1998, continually ranked at the bottom of the league. Which of course ensured that the Cardinal defenses would continue to rank at the bottom of the league.
 

nidan

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I should have added, that the reason I was given seemed both logical and appropriate.
 

40yearfan

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Duckjake said:
And who is responsible for hiring as head coach a guy who's defenses, with the exception of 1998, continually ranked at the bottom of the league. Which of course ensured that the Cardinal defenses would continue to rank at the bottom of the league.

Yeah, I'm sorry. That was me. I should have just kept my mouth shut when Mr. B asked me who I thought would make a good HC. Oh well. Live and learn. ;)
 

Duckjake

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40yearfan said:
Yeah, I'm sorry. That was me. I should have just kept my mouth shut when Mr. B asked me who I thought would make a good HC. Oh well. Live and learn. ;)

I figured it had to be either you or Mr.B. Only someone experiencing a senior moment would have done something that dumb. I know how it happened too. You couldn't find your reading glasses and where it said FIRE McGinnis you thought it said HIRE.

Put down that beer and get back on your geritol so it won't happen again.

:D
 

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clif said:
Now I will say that moving down was a bad move last year IMO, but I think it is hard to lump pace and johnson together... If you look at Johnsons numbers, he had a decent ROOKIE year. He just got overshadowed by Anquan obviously. I think he will be fine especially now he is # 3. The part that kills me is passing on Suggs (mulligan here) and taking a WR from Penn State in the first place???? I mean they are not exactly a powerhouse for receivers. :doi:

I agree Johnson had a decent year, but K. Williams DT Viks is a better player than Suggs and why draft only from a "powerhouse" for the position? You would miss out on players like Jerry Rice, Miss Valley State, Neil Lomax, Portland St, Walter Payton, Jacksonville St and Johnny U, Louisville (?). You draft the player... not the school. :shrug:

Shuesters
 

Skkorpion

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Want to hate Graves? Feel free. But nidan is right and I am confirming that Graves did not make the call on trading down last year.

Choose not to believe us? Again, feel free. Want to still believe we'll find WMD in Iraq? Go right ahead.

But every time you post your incorrect opinion on the trade, I'll contradict you because I know you are wrong.
 

Cbus cardsfan

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You still have to lay some blame on Graves for letting a lame duck coach make the call.Everyone knew it was Mac's last year unless he somehow managed to have a respectable record.Graves should have put the long term good of the team over anything else.Instead we have 1 sure lousy pick(Pace) and 1 possible lousy pick in BJ and Mac is gone thus hamstringing the new staff.Whereas we could've have had Leftwich or Suggs and given the new staff a better foundation to build on.
 

Tangodnzr

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What I can't believe is the myopic way so many people keep blaming Graves for "draft choices".

Most successful GM's don't dictate to the HC whom to draft or whom that coach wants to play.

I see such duplicity in so many comments. People saying...Green is the HC, let him do what he wants to do, and in the same breath criticizing Graves for Letting Mac do what he wanted.

Especially if you look at the history and personality of Rod Graves.
He is the antithesis of a an ego maniacial control freak. I would think any intelligent person would understand that usually, and especially in this case, the GM doesn't work in a vacuum, isolated from the HC.

I think the general philosopy is: The HC gives input as to whom he wants, the GM and/or owner approves it or not, or says whether it can be done.

None of the Bidwill's have ever been an Al Davis or Jerry Jones. They may agree or disagree with a coaches wishes, especially when it comes to financial considerations, ....and historically in the Bidwill's case, "character issues".

To "blame" Rod Graves...one way or the other is just very disingenuous IMO.
 

Redheart

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Tangodnzr said:
To "blame" Rod Graves...one way or the other is just very disingenuous IMO.

LOL! Do you hold Graves accountable for...the choice of Denny Green as head coach? Or are you going to give Bidwills the nod?

Just wondering you would hold accountable for that choice...
 

Tangodnzr

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Redheart said:
LOL! Do you hold Graves accountable for...the choice of Denny Green as head coach? Or are you going to give Bidwills the nod?

Just wondering you would hold accountable for that choice...

What's your point?

Do you even have one? :shrug:

...or just trolling?
 

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Cbus cardsfan said:
You still have to lay some blame on Graves for letting a lame duck coach make the call.Everyone knew it was Mac's last year unless he somehow managed to have a respectable record.

The owners most definately could say "Mac has the final call". How can we blame the GM if his boss says he can't make that call, despite Mac being a "Lame duck" coach? If Skkorp and Nidan are honest (and we have no reason to not believe them) then Graves did what his employer told him to.


Graves should have put the long term good of the team over anything else.Instead we have 1 sure lousy pick(Pace) and 1 possible lousy pick in BJ and Mac is gone thus hamstringing the new staff.Whereas we could've have had Leftwich or Suggs and given the new staff a better foundation to build on.

Missing the point.... They are saying Graves didn't put the long term of the team 1st because he wasn't given the ability to.... he never had the final say, so how can he alter what was done?

As for Green.... I don't care where his defenses finished.... his teams finished the season in the playoffs..... I'll give him that chance here too.
 

Redheart

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Tangodnzr said:
What's your point?

Do you even have one? :shrug:

...or just trolling?

My point is that you are giving Graves a pass on the draft pick responsibility; where do you draw the line.

I bring up Green because I KNOW you don't like that choice; do you hold Graves responsible?

I will answer my own question, (to respond to the "troll" angle). I HAVE stated this before; I hold Graves accountable for Green's selection and will sing his praises or call for both their heads depending on how it works out.

Now, will you answer the question...?
 
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Crazy Canuck

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Cbus cardsfan said:
You still have to lay some blame on Graves for letting a lame duck coach make the call.Everyone knew it was Mac's last year unless he somehow managed to have a respectable record.Graves should have put the long term good of the team over anything else.Instead we have 1 sure lousy pick(Pace) and 1 possible lousy pick in BJ and Mac is gone thus hamstringing the new staff.Whereas we could've have had Leftwich or Suggs and given the new staff a better foundation to build on.

How you, or anyone - can know the long term value of Pace and Johnson to the Cards, at this point, is beyond logic.

If McCown turns out to be the QB of the present and future, then the Leftwich pick wasn't needed... and, as for Suggs - having seen him play the run last year (and believe me Pace can teach him a thing or two about that)... we'd be debating how to turn him into a linebacker to somehow hide his obvious shortcomings.
 

Tangodnzr

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Redheart said:
My point is that you are giving Graves a pass on the draft pick responsibility; where do you draw the line.

Where do YOU draw it? Both Skkorp and Nidan have unequivocably stated some of the draft decsions last year were NOT made by Graves. That's even assuming it was as bad a draft as YOU opine it to be. As Canuck said...I think its stilll a little premature to totally diss that draft....THAT"s just YOUR opinion again...I tried pointing out, that ANY (or at least most decent ones) GM normally works in conjunction with the HC. The HC usually being the one who says who he wants. Graves doesn't say to Mac, or Green ...or anyone...OK...here's who I'm picking....this is who you will be forced to work with.
Get a life!!! I think you ARE just trolling.
Go ahead and blame Graves or the Bidwills, if you're so intent on "blaming" anyone, when and if the HC wants a player and they won't approve it, or if once drafted can't get him signed.
I'm not, and I don't think most others are saying Graves is not accountable ...you're the one that keeps insinuating that...for whatever YOUR agenda is.

I bring up Green because I KNOW you don't like that choice; do you hold Graves responsible?
:rolleyes: *see above


I will answer my own question, (to respond to the "troll" angle). I HAVE stated this before; I hold Graves accountable for Green's selection and will sing his praises or call for both their heads depending on how it works out.

Now, will you answer the question...?


.
 
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Tangodnzr

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Redheart said:
No answer. Is Green Graves' man or not?

How in F would I know?

I think it would be normal to assume that Graves was OK with his hiring. Skkorp, Nidan, etc have alluded to the fact that Graves appears to work OK with Green.

Where did this tangential question come from anyway?

Who said anything to the contrary?

Amazing, simply amazing.
 
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Redheart

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Tangodnzr said:
How in F would I know?

I think it would be normal to assume that Graves was OK with his hiring. Skkorp, Nidan, etc have alluded to the fact that Graves appears to work OK with Green.

Where did this tangential question come from anyway?

Who said anything to the contrary?

Amazing, simply amazing.

Alright, thanks for the response. Just wanted to have the exchange of thoughts, but I can pass.

I really wanted to pursue your logic of GM roles and responsibilites. Somwhere along the line they get hired or fired for a reason; i.e. they are required to to make decision and set direction; IMO, for a GM, that means drafts, Head Coaches, budgets and performance.

Hope we look good tonight! :wave:
 
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Red Fury

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nidan said:
No I won't enlighten you as the conversation was in confidence.

As for who else, hmmm... let me think, who else was around at the time ?

Why would a GM stand by and let a lame duck coach trade down and make the picks that they did? I think it was possible that Mac wanted to trade down but I think it was Graves who panicked when their guy was taken by Philly.
 

nidan

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Redheart said:
No answer. Is Green Graves' man or not?
I believe the answer to that is yes he is. Although I think it more accurate to say Green is MB and RGs man, as I think it was a joint decison.
 

nidan

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Tangodnzr said:
I think it would be normal to assume that Graves was OK with his hiring. Skkorp, Nidan, etc have alluded to the fact that Graves appears to work OK with Green.
They certainly appear to spend long periods togeather watching practice.
 

Russ Smith

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Red Fury said:
Why would a GM stand by and let a lame duck coach trade down and make the picks that they did? I think it was possible that Mac wanted to trade down but I think it was Graves who panicked when their guy was taken by Philly.


We had long debates on that pre draft, I kept stating I wanted Leftwich, but was convinced we would not take him because mac was in his last year and wasn't going to play a rookie QB. A lot of people told me I'm nuts, but I'm a big believer in Bill Bidwill saying what he means, and meaning what he says.

He told Joe Bugel you have to win 8 games to keep your job, Bugel went 7-9, team appeared to be headed the right direction, Bugel was fired. Supposedly he told Mac he needed to make major improvements (remember all the talk that Olson was part of a directed coaching purge.. that Mac HAD to do it to keep his job), the team didn't, Mac was gone. My belief is if Bidwill says you have one more year, he gives you one more year, and that probably included the right to have a LOT of say in who we picked.

Had Andre Johnson been there, we would have taken him, we clearly needed WR help, when he was gone, I think they went to plan B which was get a WR, AND a DE by moving down. I have no doubt Graves was involved in that decision, but I also have no doubt that taking Leftwich was never an option because Mac wouldn't consider it. Let's be honest, if we start slowly, as we did, last year, how many games before we're all calling for Leftwich to start?

Mac is no idiot, he knew if he took him, the pressure to play him would be enormous, and as talented as Byron is, they lost most of the games he started last year in Jacksonville, with a better defense and a better RB than we had.

I really believe the Johnson and Pace picks were a direct result of Bidwill's honest intent to give Mac one last year to prove himself.
 

CaptTurbo

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I guess Im the only one who is still willing to admit that I loved the trade last year.

Ill take 2 middle first rounders over one top 10 anyday of the week and twice on sunday. The odds are much more favorabe that youll get someone that contributes and at a fraction of the cost.
 

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Russ Smith said:
We had long debates on that pre draft, I kept stating I wanted Leftwich, but was convinced we would not take him because mac was in his last year and wasn't going to play a rookie QB. A lot of people told me I'm nuts, but I'm a big believer in Bill Bidwill saying what he means, and meaning what he says.

He told Joe Bugel you have to win 8 games to keep your job, Bugel went 7-9, team appeared to be headed the right direction, Bugel was fired. Supposedly he told Mac he needed to make major improvements (remember all the talk that Olson was part of a directed coaching purge.. that Mac HAD to do it to keep his job), the team didn't, Mac was gone. My belief is if Bidwill says you have one more year, he gives you one more year, and that probably included the right to have a LOT of say in who we picked.

Had Andre Johnson been there, we would have taken him, we clearly needed WR help, when he was gone, I think they went to plan B which was get a WR, AND a DE by moving down. I have no doubt Graves was involved in that decision, but I also have no doubt that taking Leftwich was never an option because Mac wouldn't consider it. Let's be honest, if we start slowly, as we did, last year, how many games before we're all calling for Leftwich to start?

Mac is no idiot, he knew if he took him, the pressure to play him would be enormous, and as talented as Byron is, they lost most of the games he started last year in Jacksonville, with a better defense and a better RB than we had.

I really believe the Johnson and Pace picks were a direct result of Bidwill's honest intent to give Mac one last year to prove himself.

:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:
 

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Red Fury said:
I know it's hard but be patient for a couple of years and you will see the Cards moving in the right direction.
have i mentioned yet...? 16years and still rebuilding...
 
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