It's more or less happening as I was told

Gaddabout

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Sarver is the de facto GM making basketball decisions. It's my worst nightmare. He's directly negotiating with free agents and the point man in trade discussions. Whomever becomes the next GM will be handed a team that Sarver constructed, with several long-term commitments that may or may not handicap the next GM.

The Suns are making a concerted effort to NOT overload the payroll and NOT be a major player in the market this summer, but the commitments to Frye and Warrick basically put them back up against the cap, so mission failed.

Sarver isn't cheap. I never said he was and people should get over that label. The Suns will again have a payroll in the upper half of the NBA even without Stoudemire. His philosophy is to obey the market, which is what upset so many people in the front office. Yes, he did give lots of raises early on in the exchange from Colangelo, but non-basketball ops haven't seen a pay raise in three years or any benefit from the largess of the unexpected playoff money windfall this year.

Sarver is vehemently opposed to starting from scratch as much as he's opposed to going for broke. He wants to field a playoff team every year and believes he can do this while being frugal. He doesn't necessarily believe a team needs a focal point superstar to be very competitive. This was a minor (and sometimes major) point of disagreement between him and basketball ops.

He believes he's modeling the organization after the Spurs. The difference here is Peter Holt doesn't get involved in operations. R.C. Buford and Pops make those decisions. They're given a budget, but they still make the calls. Sarver can't help himself but get involved because that's how he runs things, that's his management style.

Around the NBA he suddenly has the reputation of being the Jerry Jones of the NBA. That's not quite true because Jones' ego is much bigger. Jones doesn't have a management philosophy, per se; he just thinks he knows better. Sarver is trying to impose a management philosophy in an industry that is foreign to this kind of micromanagement, and it steps on toes. Sarver is absolutely baffled by the response. To him, this is just business, how it's done in every other industry, and he sees other owners giving hand jobs to superstars and that offends him. It's irresponsible, in his opinion.

Sarver is actually probably right in most regards. We certainly have shaken our heads at the absolute stupidity and basketball decisions made in a panic -- in the Suns organization and around the NBA. We certainly have bitched and moaned about the ridiculous contracts given to mediocre players and that handicap future Suns decision making. But where Sarver is wrong is assuming he should have any role in basketball ops. It's too specialized for him to be able to understand how a team should be constructed. You can't just throw a bunch of players on a roster and expect them to fit together. There has to be a thoughtful plan to team construction, philosophy, and chemistry.

This is probably the last the heady days as a Suns fan. All the momentum that turned this franchise around in the late 80s is gone and we are heading back to the DIAL days of vanilla basketball, hyper frugality, and possibly in the not too distant future, rumors of the team relocating. After a few seasons of half-filled arenas for a borderline playoff team, Sarver's wallet will start to hurt.
 

slinslin

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I won't watch a single game of what will be the worst Suns season in my time as a fan.

I won't support a team that strives for mediocrity which is exactly what we are doing, spend money to win 46 games instead of 26 and get a #14 pick instead of a #4 pick.

Buyout Sarver.
 

ASUCHRIS

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Wonderful, my favorite team is going down the toilet. I can't believe that Jerry sold his baby to this assclown.
 

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yeah, this is what I was afraid of when you made your comments.

and you made mention of "moving rumors in a couple years"... sweet.
 

dreamcastrocks

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He believes he's modeling the organization after the Spurs. The difference here is Peter Holt doesn't get involved in operations. R.C. Buford and Pops make those decisions. They're given a budget, but they still make the calls. Sarver can't help himself but get involved because that's how he runs things, that's his management style.

Who else is going to be making the deals, negotiating contracts? Gentry??? Nash???

We don't have a GM in place. I don't understand why you expected anything different.
 
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Gaddabout

Gaddabout

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I should add my biggest beef with Sarver is he doesn't seem to understand keeping employees happy is vital in this industry. It's too competitive. But you don't have to throw a bunch of money at it. If he had given the veeps, say, a $10,000 bonus -- chump change consider they had an extra $10 mil they didn't expect -- a lot of people would've been happy. He could've been a little creative. But he can be a real pain in the ass and likes to tell people how to do their job, everyone. So probably more than money, Sarver's meddling and lack of intuition into office morale is his biggest failing. He thinks people should just be professional and not take everything personally. Good luck with that in this industry.
 

jagu

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I won't watch a single game of what will be the worst Suns season in my time as a fan.

I won't support a team that strives for mediocrity which is exactly what we are doing, spend money to win 46 games instead of 26 and get a #14 pick instead of a #4 pick.

Buyout Sarver.

Because there's no Amare? The Suns have a lot of good young players and they will be fun to watch next year.
 

Mainstreet

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I don't think the moves Sarver made on Warrick and Frye were bad moves. I think giving Amare a mega contract would have been a disaster. Certainly we can debate whether Frye was worth 20M instead of 30M but Frye probably had offers on the table for this amount. Sarver didn't keep raising his offer to Frye unless there were competitors. The market place set Fryes's value.
 
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Gaddabout

Gaddabout

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Who else is going to be making the deals, negotiating contracts? Gentry??? Nash???

We don't have a GM in place. I don't understand why you expected anything different.

That's actually a good question. I suggest it should be Mark West running point with Sarver and a numbers cruncher in the background. West is actually very capable. He's a stockbroker by trade in his post-NBA career and very well-respected by the players and other GMs.
 

slinslin

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Because there's no Amare? The Suns have a lot of good young players and they will be fun to watch next year.

Not to me, winning 40 games or 46 games with no chance to win it all is not fun. Drafting in the middle of the first round is not fun. Seeing picks sold is not fun.

None of our young players has ANY chance to be more than a decent NBA player except maybe Earl Clark and he probably won't play more than 12mpg behind Lopez, Warrick, Frye, Hill and Dudley.

I am done with the Suns until Sarver is gone.
 

AzStevenCal

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Because there's no Amare? The Suns have a lot of good young players and they will be fun to watch next year.

Good to hear. BTW, where have they been hiding them? All I see are a bunch of solid, complementary types with a couple of them having a shot at becoming above average NBA starters.

Steve
 

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yeah, this is what I was afraid of when you made your comments.

and you made mention of "moving rumors in a couple years"... sweet.


"Moving"??? C'mon man... get real... Like, where? Kansas City? St Louis? Tampa Bay? Cincinnati? Las Vegas?

No f'n way... :mulli:
 

slinslin

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I don't think the moves Sarver made on Warrick and Frye were bad moves. I think giving Amare a mega contract would have been a disaster. Certainly we can debate whether Frye was worth 20M instead of 30M but Frye probably had offers on the table for this amount. Sarver didn't keep raising his offer to Frye unless there were competitors. The market place set Fryes's value.

So? You initially offer 16M$ and then offer 32M$? That is just plain stupid business to raise your offer by 100%.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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Because there's no Amare? The Suns have a lot of good young players and they will be fun to watch next year.

may be average to a little above average
lopez
dragic

likely at ceiling
dudley
frye
warrick

at ceiling
barbs

who knows, but upside seems limited
clark
lawal
collins

old
nash
hill

not old or young but at ceiling
jrich

the youth has limited upside. none of 'em are what i'd call "exciting."
 

jagu

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Not to me, winning 40 games or 46 games with no chance to win it all is not fun. Drafting in the middle of the first round is not fun. Seeing picks sold is not fun.

None of our young players has ANY chance to be more than a decent NBA player except maybe Earl Clark and he probably won't play more than 12mpg behind Lopez, Warrick, Frye, Hill and Dudley.

I am done with the Suns until Sarver is gone.

Goran Dragic?! :notworthy:
 

Chaplin

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I don't think the moves Sarver made on Warrick and Frye were bad moves. I think giving Amare a mega contract would have been a disaster. Certainly we can debate whether Frye was worth 20M instead of 30M but Frye probably had offers on the table for this amount. Sarver didn't keep raising his offer to Frye unless there were competitors. The market place set Fryes's value.

You're wasting your breath. Nobody will listen to you.
 
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Gaddabout

Gaddabout

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"Moving"??? C'mon man... get real... Like, where? Kansas City? St Louis? Tampa Bay? Cincinnati? Las Vegas?

No f'n way... :mulli:

San Diego is still on the radar. That's where the entire ownership lives. That's where the Suns hold their preseason camp now because of it. If things got bad enough in Phoenix, the NBA would listen to Suns ownership. I still suggest the NBA would probably push the ownership group out before letting them leave Phoenix for a much smaller market like San Diego, but don't doubt for a minute it hasn't been discussed. The shine is off US Airways and the days of backroom deals for public tax dollars for stadia and arena are long over. There won't be any public money for upgrades. The deal is renegotiable in five years, I believe.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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I don't think the moves Sarver made on Warrick and Frye were bad moves. I think giving Amare a mega contract would have been a disaster. Certainly we can debate whether Frye was worth 20M instead of 30M but Frye probably had offers on the table for this amount. Sarver didn't keep raising his offer to Frye unless there were competitors. The market place set Fryes's value.

sarver: "baaaaaaa, baaaaaaa, baaaaaaa"

(we need a sheep emoticon)
 

Chaplin

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sarver: "baaaaaaa, baaaaaaa, baaaaaaa"

(we need a sheep emoticon)

Attack, attack, attack! I thought we were all Suns fans here.

He isn't saying he supports the move, he's saying he's intelligent enough to understand WHY it was made. Regardless of whether he agrees with it or not.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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Goran Dragic?! :notworthy:

i love goran. i don't think he'll ever have superstar potential. at least, not the type that can carry a team. his ceiling (imo) is ginobili and his reaching that ceiling is anything but certain. even if he reaches that ceiling, ginobili is not the type of star you BUILD AROUND, but rather a good #2 and a terrific #3.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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Attack, attack, attack! I thought we were all Suns fans here.

He isn't saying he supports the move, he's saying he's intelligent enough to understand WHY it was made. Regardless of whether he agrees with it or not.

i didn't say HE was a sheep. i was calling SARVER a sheep.
 
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Gaddabout

Gaddabout

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You're wasting your breath. Nobody will listen to you.

I think the Warrick deal is OK, good value, but I wouldn't have given him four years. The Frye deal was a mistake. But even if I thought it was OK, that's basically a commitment to lesser basketball. These guys will be asked to replace Stoudemire's production.

It's not coming from an earnest position to compete. It's coming from an earnest position to sell tickets on a marginal basis.
 

Mainstreet

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So? You initially offer 16M$ and then offer 32M$? That is just plain stupid business to raise your offer by 100%.

I don't think it's bad negotiating to start from low and then go higher. I'm sure Sarver was hoping to sign Frye for just a notch above last year's contract. It wasn't to be with other teams having money to spend. If Sarver could have had Frye at a contract similar to Warrick, he would have done so. I guess it's the Suns fault for elevating Frye's market value by bringing out his potential last season?
 
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slinslin

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i love goran. i don't think he'll ever have superstar potential. at least, not the type that can carry a team. his ceiling (imo) is ginobili and his reaching that ceiling is anything but certain. even if he reaches that ceiling, ginobili is not the type of star you BUILD AROUND, but rather a good #2 and a terrific #3.

Ginobili? More like Calderon.

Right now Dragic isn't even good enough to be a starter. People are blinded by his fluke 4th quarter against the Spurs.

FLUKE, like Delk's 51 etc...

Dragic right now is clueless how to run the offense. He has 3 plays:

1. Dribble forever and drive to the basket to throw up a wildshot or actually make a good pass.
2. Dribble forever and take a bad jumpshot with a defender in his face.
3. Pass the ball to Barbosa who executes play #2.

For the most part in the playoffs Dragic was lucky to get his shots a yard close to the rim.

Listen I don't hate Dragic but he is clearly not STAR potential. You can say that about Wall, Curry, Rose, Rondo, Westbrook, Jennings, Collison etc but not Goran Dragic. He will never be a top 10 PG. I just named 7 and then there still is Rondo, Nash, Paul, Williams, Harris, Billups and future rookies.
 

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