It's still hard for me not to question all of Green's changes with player personal...

[cardsunsfan]

He has almost kept noone from our previous teams. I understand that we were one of the worst teams in the NFL before but we still won a few games and the difference from the best teams to the not so great teams isn't that huge.

Now all of these guys that Green has cut or is thinking about cutting... maybe we did draft them too high but some of these guys are first, second, and third rounders. I know they might have been drafted too high, but you're telling me that Green wouldn't have drafted some of these guys if he'd been able to draft them a round later? For instance, if Shelton had been there in the second round and we needed offensive linemen he wouldn't have picked him? How about Thompson in the fourth? Wendell Bryant in the third? Pace in the third? I know these guys might not be the best picks but I know other teams would have drafted them shortly after. To think that Green can replace first and second round picks easily with later round picks or by getting guys for the league minimum or just a little higher is hard for me to believe....

I know that Mac and Tobin might have drafted some of these guys a little early but to think that they totally missed on all of these picks..second round picks not being about to beat picks 100's of players later, is hard for me to believe. I think Green just wants to get rid of guys that weren't here before he got here. I know he has kept Wilson, Boldin (so far) and Davis but they are exceptions to the rule....

 

[MadCardDisease]

Look at how this team performed with the old guys and you will see why Green is going a different route. I'm all for it.

 

[cardsunsfan]

Look at how this team performed with the old guys and you will see why Green is going a different route. I'm all for it.

I know we're better but could we even be better than we are if we kept some of these players? I mean when our drafts were rated by "experts" in the past, we got pretty good ratings. I know we might have picked players a round too early or something but it's hard for me to believe that the players we've picked are so bad they shouldn't even be playing professional football. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if some of the players we've picked in the draft in previous yrs Green wouldn't have picked. Many times they were the picks recommended by "experts"

 

[MadCardDisease]

I know that Mac and Tobin might have drafted some of these guys a little early but to think that they totally missed on all of these picks..second round picks not being about to beat picks 100's of players later, is hard for me to believe. I think Green just wants to get rid of guys that weren't here before he got here. I know he has kept Wilson, Boldin (so far) and Davis but they are exceptions to the rule....

Mac and Tobin drafted guys that fit into thier defensive scheme. However their scheme really depended on having some key players on the DL. They never found those players and thus the entire system failed. That is why you are seeing a complete overhaul of the defense. Not to mention that we run a completely different defense.

The offensive changes shouldn't be shocking. The Offense has never lived up to expectations and needs change.

 

[cardsunsfan]

How much do you want to bet that guys that are picked in the seventh round are going to get more rope than some of the guys Mac and Tobin picked in the first, second and third? What are the odds the guys they picked in the second would be worse than than the guys Green picks in the 5+ rounds?

 

[cardsunsfan]

Mac and Tobin drafted guys that fit into thier defensive scheme. However their scheme really depended on having some key players on the DL. They never found those players and thus the entire system failed. That is why you are seeing a complete overhaul of the defense. Not to mention that we run a completely different defense.

The offensive changes shouldn't be shocking. The Offense has never lived up to expectations and needs change.

I don't think they are just Mac and Tobin guys..many of our picks were recommend by "experts" like the Sporting News, Fox Sports, ESPN, and numerous other guru's..they weren't tailor made for Mac's system. They were considered one of the best players at their position at the time. I think some of them were just coached badly... which could be changed with good coaching... As I mentioned, in some cases I think Green would have even made the same decison.

 

[MadCardDisease]

How much do you want to bet that guys that are picked in the seventh round are going to get more rope than some of the guys Mac and Tobin picked in the first, second and third? What are the odds the guys they picked in the second would be worse than than the guys Green picks in the 5+ rounds?

Just because a guy was drafted early doesn't mean they deserve to start. Hell they might not even deserve to be on the team.

 

[MadCardDisease]

I don't think they are just Mac and Tobin guys..many of our picks were recommend by "experts" like the Sporting News, Fox Sports, ESPN, and numerous other guru's..they weren't tailor made for Mac's system. They were considered on of the best players at their position at the time. I think some of them were just coached badly... which could be changed with good coaching...

Yep and they were all wrong. 50% of the first round picks end up being busts or backups at best. until recently the Cards have been on the wrong side of that 50%.

 

[cardsunsfan]

Just because a guy was drafted early doesn't mean they deserve to start. Hell they might not even deserve to be on the team.

Yeah but almost all of them? I find that kind of hard to believe..it's not like we totally bucked the trend of other teams when it comes to drafting. Even Pace and Bryant were at least considered to go late first/second round...

 

[cardsunsfan]

Yep and they were all wrong. 50% of the first round picks end up being busts or backups at best. until recently the Cards have been on the wrong side of that 50%.

busts are considered players that don't live up to expectations.. I agree some of the wouldn't, but not able to be a Green guy that was drafted in the fourth or later or beat out free agents that didn't even make it into the draft (Which is probably going to happen) I find that kind of hard to believe...

 

[clif]

I think Green just wants to get rid of guys that weren't here before he got here. I know he has kept Wilson, Boldin (so far) and Davis but they are exceptions to the rule....

It no coincidence that the players that he hasn't gotten rid of actually produced.

I mean when our drafts were rated by "experts" in the past, we got pretty good ratings.

Just having a good draft (which I don't believe we did) does not automatically mean your team will be better. These players have to want to succeed, have talent, and have coaches that bring it out of them. These guys just didn't produce and we can no longer sit around and wait for them to produce.

 

[cardsunsfan]

I'll just say that I'm looking forward to seeing how some of these guys do on other teams, I don't think they'll play that badly and some of them will even be starters. I think many of them would have at least been solid backups for are team and many will be better backups than what we'll get instead of them...

 

[MadCardDisease]

Yeah but almost all of them? I find that kind of hard to believe..it's not like we totally bucked the trend of other teams when it comes to drafting. Even Pace and Bryant were at least considered to go late first/second round...

Yes almost all of them. Drafting isn't a science. There are no garentees. Wendall Bryant and Thomas Jones were both projected to go in the top 15. Hell even I thought they would be superstars. It never happened and pretty much EVERYONE was wrong.

 

[clif]

busts are considered players that don't live up to expectations.. I agree some of the wouldn't, but not able to be a Green guy that was drafted in the fourth or later or beat out free agents that didn't even make it into the draft (Which is probably going to happen) I find that kind of hard to believe...

Pace was considered a second at best and Johnson was a second or third IIRC.

 

[CaptTurbo]

Dont worry once we start winning next year youll learn not to question

 

[cardsunsfan]

Pace was considered a second at best and Johnson was a second or third IIRC.

Who wants to bet they'll eventually get beat out by guys drafted in the fourth round or below? Just think Green guys get a longer leash when Green drafts him.. For instance... I bet if Pace was drafted in the third by Green he would have gotten a hell of a lot more playing time...

 

[john h]

He has almost kept noone from our previous teams. I understand that we were one of the worst teams in the NFL before but we still won a few games and the difference from the best teams to the not so great teams isn't that huge.

Now all of these guys that Green has cut or is thinking about cutting... maybe we did draft them too high but some of these guys are first, second, and third rounders. I know they might have been drafted too high, but you're telling me that Green wouldn't have drafted some of these guys if he'd been able to draft them a round later? For instance, if Shelton had been there in the second round and we needed offensive linemen he wouldn't have picked him? How about Thompson in the fourth? Wendell Bryant in the third? Pace in the third? I know these guys might not be the best picks but I know other teams would have drafted them shortly after. To think that Green can replace first and second round picks easily with later round picks or by getting guys for the league minimum or just a little higher is hard for me to believe....

I know that Mac and Tobin might have drafted some of these guys a little early but to think that they totally missed on all of these picks..second round picks not being about to beat picks 100's of players later, is hard for me to believe. I think Green just wants to get rid of guys that weren't here before he got here. I know he has kept Wilson, Boldin (so far) and Davis but they are exceptions to the rule....

I clearly do not know what is in Greens head but he without question cut or got rid of some players we could use and have started for other teams. If he was trying to make a point I am not into making points with NFL football players. Sometimes you have to put up with good players who are lacking in personality or may disagree with you. We got rid of last years starting center, Wilson,Starks and others. These guys have or will start for other teams who are better than us. Many of you swear by Dennis Green. He still has some things to prove to me before I jump on his bandwagon. We won 6 games last year which is not exactly all world. Blame it on the past coaches but they did not fire the staring center, the OL coach after 6 games to be replaced by a guy with little experience, sit LJ Shelton when he should have been starting, pull McCown after he won two games in a row, pass on a very good QB in the draft for a receiver. Yes he made some good draft selections but one season does not make you an All Pro coach as he did not perform like one. I will make a judgement after this year on just how much he has changed this team for the better. If we cannot get better than .500 then he is just another in the long line of coaches.

 

[BigRedFan]

Im for all the moves being made. Get rid of all the deadweight, increase our capspace, and try to collect as many draft picks as possible to pick up young hungry and talented players. No more of the typical status quo stuff in the offseason. We actually have something to look forward to this season!

 

[MadCardDisease]

Who wants to bet they'll eventually get beat out by guys drafted in the fourth round or below? Just think Green guys get a longer leash when Green drafts him.. For instance... I bet if Pace was drafted in the third by Green he would have gotten a hell of a lot more playing time...

Green doesn't play a player based on the position he was drafted or the amount of money they make. I think that is awesome. I'm tired of starting players just because they were a high draft pick or make a ton of money.

 

[MadCardDisease]

We got rid of last years starting center, Wilson,Starks and others.

We got rid of Wilson!

 

[clif]

Who wants to bet they'll eventually get beat out by guys drafted in the fourth round or below? Just think Green guys get a longer leash when Green drafts him.. For instance... I bet if Pace was drafted in the third by Green he would have gotten a hell of a lot more playing time...

Look I like Pace, but I have to question the guys mental capability when everyone that follows the team knows how tenious his stay is and how important it is for him to be at the "voluntary" camps... and what does he do?? NOT SHOW UP!!

I still hold out hope the guy gets in and comes up big this year, but even his most dedicated followers (whoever they might be) have to admit not being there is pretty darn stupid. If he gets beaten out by a 4th round player then he has no one to blame but himself (and maybe his agent)

 

[JeffGollin]

I know they might have been drafted too high, but you're telling me that Green wouldn't have drafted some of these guys if he'd been able to draft them a round later? For instance, if Shelton had been there in the second round and we needed offensive linemen he wouldn't have picked him? How about Thompson in the fourth? Wendell Bryant in the third? Pace in the third? I know these guys might not be the best picks but I know other teams would have drafted them shortly after. To think that Green can replace first and second round picks easily with later round picks or by getting guys for the league minimum or just a little high is hard for me to believe....
The round a player was picked becomes irrelevent the moment he joins the team who drafted him. Starting with that moment, that guy has to produce. And - if it turns out that some other guy - who may have been picked in a later round (if at all) picked up in free agency or traded for - plays better than him, he's in risk of losing his job.

All the draft involves is a bunch of football people playing the percentages and making educated guesses as to who - at that particular moment in time - seems to be the best choice for improving the team. It's not fail-safe, it's not a precise science. Guys get injured. Guys with talent turn out to be uncoachable and never get any better. And then there's the (newly named) "Jared Lorenzen Syndrome": the "Pillsbury Throwboy" - a QB who came into the league at 270 lbs. just checked into Giant OTA's at a svelte 338 pounds!!!

I think in each individual instance where Dennis and Rod let a player leave, the decision was purely on the basis of: "What should we do that's in the best interest of the team?" And, no doubt, this was in the context of a longer term overall strategy designed to assemble the right mix of players that would deliver wins for us.

For example, the offensive line of Shelton, Spikes, Kendall, Davis and Clement - while thrilling on paper - couldn't get the job done (for whatever the reason). Hanging onto these guys & hoping and praying they'd turn things around - based mainly on the fact they were drafted high - would have been a recipe for the "same old same old." Something had to be done to shake up the inertia. Sometimes good people find themselves odd-man out.

KVB couldn't rush the passer well enough so we brought in Berry on one side and brought in Ken King and Peppi Zellner on the other. Ray Thompson (when he wasn't injured) was prone to flying all over the place but not always hitting anybody. Then Dansby shows up and Darling proves to make our defense better. Pace showed flashes but, even with him in there opposite Berry our pass rush wasn't all that it should be. Enter Okeafor. Kendall apparently bucked the system at the precise moment, Dennis was trying to get it established and ingrained in place of Mac's old system. Bad for the team. Pete was gone.

If Dennis was coming in merely to "take a .500 team up another notch", perhaps he could been more accepting of the good players we already had here. But he took a look at the situation - one featuring just one playoff season in (I'm guessing) 20 years - and felt he had to shake things up big time - i.e. effect major changes both in personnel and the way the team and its players were used to doing business.

I view the team objective as putting together the right combination of 53 guys who will win 10 or more games for us. I think Dennis gave these guys a chance to perform well within the context of a new program. When he felt, there were other guys who could play as well or better than LJ, KVB, Ray and LeVar (in many cases for less money), he did what he felt he had to do.

In brief - No, I don't think he got rid of these guys because they were part of the old regime. He got rid of them because he felt they weren't as good for the team overall as other options he had available.

 

[MadCardDisease]

If Dennis was coming in merely to "take a .500 team up another notch", perhaps he could been more accepting of the good players we already had here. But he took a look at the situation - one featuring just one playoff season in (I'm guessing) 20 years - and felt he had to shake things up big time - i.e. affect major changes both in personnel and the way the team and its players were used to doing business.

Well put!

 

[CardLogic]

I think in each individual instance where Dennis and Rod let a player leave, the decision was purely on the basis of: "What should we do that's in the best interest of the team?" And, no doubt, this was in the context of a longer term overall strategy designed to assemble the right mix of players that would deliver wins for us.

I view the team objective as putting together the right combination of 53 guys who will win 10 or more games for us. I think Dennis gave these guys a chance to perform well within the context of a new program. When he felt, there were other guys who could play as well or better than LJ, KVB, Ray and LeVar (in many cases for less money), he did what he felt he had to do.

In brief - No, I don't think he got rid of these guys because they were part of the old regime. He got rid of them because he felt they weren't as good for the team overall as other options he had available.

Well stated, Jeff.

Why do people keep insisting that Green doesn't want anyone but personally chosen players on the team. That's a rediculous notion...

What Green wants more than anything is to WIN!

 

[Russ Smith]

Pace was considered a second at best and Johnson was a second or third IIRC.

Both said on draft day they had been told via phone that they were going to be picked in the first round by OTHER teams if we hadn't picked them. I forget specifics but Pace said the Giants had told him that(they took William Joseph from Miami) and I know Johnson said someone had contacted him. If you looked at "late risers" in the draft that year they were both on the list.

Pace had significantly improved his workout times and lifts because when he'd first done them he was still coming off rehabbing his broken leg and wasn't 100%. He ran much faster, lifted better, and shot back up the draft board. Before he got hurt he was told late first to early 2nd, and Bobby Bowden called him the best athlete in the ACC.

Johnson ran faster than expected and moved up. I was always a bit skeptical on him because he played on a running team and wasn't all that impressive, but he was not rated a 3rd rounder. Both guys were considered reaches and have performed as such.