Jackson, Melton dumped

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

No I don’t, re-read what I wrote. It’s just a name that I have heard. I said it could be a nothing burger. I didn’t say it was going to happen. Do I have inside info nope. All I have is someone who works in the front office who can tell you generalities about what’s going on. The Suns being high on Aaron Gordon is the closest thing that I have for insider information. My opinions on jones and the trades are exactly that my opinion.

He’s not the first to mention suns and Aaron Gordon, just maybe the first to bring it up again in the last 8-12 months. They been connected before.

 

[Johninromania]

He’s not the first to mention suns and Aaron Gordon, just maybe the first to bring it up again in the last 8-12 months. They been connected before.

Exactly, the Suns last year where intrested In him also when he was a restricted free agent. So when somebody in the Suns says the are still high on them and would make a move if the price is right is not a stretch of the imagination.

 

[Johninromania]

For clarification of who I am and what I know. First of all I’m a lifelong Suns fan. How am I connected to the Suns? I am not. Do you know people who work for the Suns? Yes some former players and someone who works in the front office (non decision maker). How do you know them? There friends of Greg Schulte, current announcer of the D-Backs and former Suns radio personality, the Schultes are very close family friends. Do you have inside info? No not really, I have general knowledge that might be more detailed then you hard take. Hope this clears things up

 

[overseascardfan]

No I don’t, re-read what I wrote. It’s just a name that I have heard. I said it could be a nothing burger. I didn’t say it was going to happen. Do I have inside info nope. All I have is someone who works in the front office who can tell you generalities about what’s going on. The Suns being high on Aaron Gordon is the closest thing that I have for insider information. My opinions on jones and the trades are exactly that my opinion.

So PHX is still interested in Gordon?

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Lightly protected 1st and Tyler Johnson is really the only thing that would make sense if Orlando would got for it.

And we could eat one of their bad contracts potentially.

 

[slinslin]

I guess it is a good summer for me since from day 1 of the pre-daft workouts I was absolutely opposed towards drafting either Bender or Jackson.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I guess it is a good summer for me since from day 1 of the pre-daft workouts I was absolutely opposed towards drafting either Bender or Jackson.

But you loved Chriss. So you might not want to gloat too much.

As of today, Bender and Chriss are both unsigned free agents and will probably only get vet minimum deals if any.

 

[Western Font]

2. For those continuing with the "We're a better team" battlecry... Of course we are. It wasn't hard to do. We had no where to go but up. But here's what you have to ask yourself, does this help us 5 years from now? If we sacrifice the chance of special in the future for the certainty of mediocrity in the now, is it worth it? And that's what we are now, mediocre. And if you're hoping for some future trade or draft pick to help, you'll be putting your faith in a GM who was laughed at by Indi and drafted Cam Johnson at #11.

Good point. Impatience makes it easy to rationalize these moves, but that doesn't improve their quality. A good GM always asks for something additional, even a pick swap or a protection, if not a later pick. The Suns seem to be offering up the picks at the outset just to lubricate the deal.

What I *hope* is that this is cleaning house, even if over-zealous, and we end up at a more stable place from which Jones will become more judicious. But until that happens, all we have is evidence to the contrary.

 

[Finito]

I really like what Jones has done.

Warren was a complete headcase who had missed significant time pretty much every year of his career.

JJ good lord I’ve never been more disappointed in a draft pick. I was so happy when he “slipped” to us in the draft. He has shown he’s flat out not mature enough to be an NBA player. When he shot 24% in summer league they should of got rid of him.

You’ve sent out Warren,Jackson and Holmes and brought in Rubio, Baynes and Saric all upgrades

 

[ArizonaSportsFan]

A number of things stand out to me after this trade.

1. James Jones continues to show little regard for draft picks and value. I guess you could call him a transcender, or you could call him incompetent. I'm not sure, but here's what I do know, at my count he has been on the wrong end of 3 trades: TJ, #6, and now JJ. He completely botched the value of the #11 pick. He also throws away 2nd round picks at an alarming rate. (I wasn't in each of the rooms, but I'd bet Indi, Minnesota, and Memphis were all laughing at us when we agreed to the deals.) No matter the results of the trades we SUCKED out loud on capitalizing on our value. There's almost NO EXPERT that thinks we didn't. Amazingly, we are being laughed at MORE than when with McD.

2. For those continuing with the "We're a better team" battlecry... Of course we are. It wasn't hard to do. We had no where to go but up. But here's what you have to ask yourself, does this help us 5 years from now? If we sacrifice the chance of special in the future for the certainty of mediocrity in the now, is it worth it? And that's what we are now, mediocre. And if you're hoping for some future trade or draft pick to help, you'll be putting your faith in a GM who was laughed at by Indi and drafted Cam Johnson at #11.

3. I really like Melton. I was a strong proponent for us acquiring him. However, I was also strong for Carter. He's EXACTLY what you want in a back up PG and he can play right now. He's one of the toughest PG prospects I've scouted. Once again, we traded "potential" for "production" when it comes to prospects. However, this time I agree with the move. (Isolated from the rest of the trade).

4. JJ was undoubtedly damaged goods. There wasn't a great answer to this dilemma. But to give him away early is just poor management of assets. If there was all this disdain for him mid season than he should have been gone then. We continue to trade at the lowest possible point. Amazingly bad.

One thing is for sure, these new moves undoubtedly are the foundation new era of the Suns. We are the "play it safe" team.

James Jones philosophy is plainly clear: potential is a GM killer and he refuses to become its prey.

I think that I disagree with 1,2, and 4 here.

1, 4. I think that you have assigned your own value to players and it is probably not the actual retail value. TJ needed to go. My opinion - they had been trying to trade TJ for a while with no takers. What they ended up getting was someone to take him into their cap space ($11.7M per year) and receive no contract back. Do you think that comes for free? Let's say Warren was a "tier 3" player (whatever that may mean - but higher than average value) - do you still think it is free to have a team absorb him into cap space and not give contracts back? The Suns did not want a contract back, or at least not the crap that must have been offered. I think "we" are wrong on the value here, which is why I disagree with you on the trade. There was definitely a couple of things wrong (if not more) with TJ. A decent scorer, but a knack for being disinterested, hurt, and sitting out. And ending up on the floor.
Once ATL traded for #5 with Hunter as the target, I think the Suns knew they weren't getting the player they really wanted. If the lottery luck had even been just little kinder, this whole offseason would look a lot different. You say White is "potential", I guess? JJ most likely thought not. Rubio now and for the next 4 is most likely better than White will ever be. So, no PG, Clarke apparently not all that, and the Suns need shooters. Candy-coating? Perhaps, but after the lottery results it was always going to be iffy with this draft. We all knew it.
Josh Jackson has negative value. I thought that before any of the legal issues, or team drama. He is not an intelligent basketball player. I don't think you can watch him and disagree with that. Some think that a coach can make a player intelligent. I don't think that is possible. I disagree with your inclusion of him in item 1 and disagree with 4. We sold way too late - not too early. The time to sell was after season one. Or definitely after the summer league in season 2. I firmly believe this was not the lowest point.
Second round picks, for a young team yearning for NBA talent and wins, have no value. In fact, they probably have negative value because you can't keep developing everybody as it just muddies the water. You can develop one, two, or maybe even three players. Those players are already on the roster.

2. Getting better definitely helps us 5 years from now. You are not defining your "chance of special" here. Josh Jackson becoming special? In one sense of the word - definitely. In the sense we would all like - quite doubtful. Melton was traded for Carter, essentially, so I am not thinking you meant Melton was potentially special.

I totally understand frustration with losing, ownership, the FO, the coaching, or whatever. But I also think that many fans have become conditioned to be upset. I am excited for positive new forward steps, even if there have been some backwards leaps over the last number of years. Rubio will still be trade-able in a couple of years if we get everything else in order and can find that dynamic PG of the future. What I do know is that Rubio is not going to hold us back from wins, which is great.

 

[elindholm]

No I don’t, re-read what I wrote.

So far, in fewer than 40 posts, you have claimed

1. to have a black immigrant mother who is a Trump supporter, of whom there are maybe five in the world,

2. to have worked for the DNC for four years, in spite of being an independent, and

3. to have a personal connection to someone with inside info on both the Suns and Diamondbacks.

It's quite a debut.

 

[devilalum]

I guess it is a good summer for me since from day 1 of the pre-daft workouts I was absolutely opposed towards drafting either Bender or Jackson.

Wait, what?

 

[Hoop Head]

I guess it is a good summer for me since from day 1 of the pre-daft workouts I was absolutely opposed towards drafting either Bender or Jackson.

So you care more about being right than the Suns being good or improving? That's odd.

 

[Johninromania]

So far, in fewer than 40 posts, you have claimed

1. to have a black immigrant mother who is a Trump supporter, of whom there are maybe five in the world,

2. to have worked for the DNC for four years, in spite of being an independent, and

3. to have a personal connection to someone with inside info on both the Suns and Diamondbacks.

It's quite a debut.

Your welcome I am quite remarkable. Maybe you should up your game in life. That’s stuff isn’t that impressive. Oh you forgot I live in Romania also! Seems we have low bars to set for impressive starts. Last time I checked this is a Suns forum its about basketball, let’s talk about basketball and not be concerned with my past or who I am. I am sure not concerned with yours.

 

[Chaplin]

Your welcome I am quite remarkable. Maybe you should up your game in life. That’s stuff isn’t that impressive. Oh you forgot I live in Romania also! Seems we have low bars to set for impressive starts. Last time I checked this is a Suns forum its about basketball, let’s talk about basketball and not be concerned with my past or who I am. I am sure not concerned with yours.

Except your past and your background directly correlate to your claims, which are frankly unbelievable. If you are telling the truth, more power to you—but you have to recognize how bizarre your claims are.

 

[devilalum]

This story about the Warren trade is pathetic and it reminds me of this.

Years ago I lived in Massachusetts for a year. Every time I ran into a Celtics fan they had to tell me this story.

Right after the Dennis Johnson trade Red Auerbach called the reporters into his office to share the details of the deal. He's kicked back in his big chair smoking a cigar and he says, "I just traded Rick Robey to the Suns for Dennis Johnson." The reporters are all like, " Yeah Red we heard, what else did you have to give?" Red takes a big puff of his cigar and says, "Nothing"

The room goes dead silent for a few seconds then everybody bursts out into hysterical laughter.

For those too young to remember Robey was a barely serviceable non-athletic PF and Dennis Johnson was an All NBA defensive All Star PG. Phoenix actually threw in a first round pick and recieved 2 second rounders in the deal. Genius

I hope I never have to live in Indiana.

 

[devilalum]

Except your past and your background directly correlate to your claims, which are frankly unbelievable. If you are telling the truth, more power to you—but you have to recognize how bizarre your claims are.

Every time some new guy shows up with claims of inside info and some outrageous back story red flags go off all over the place.

 

[Hoop Head]

And he explained himself and elaborated on his "sources". Believe it or don't. There is no need to bring it up again, especially with the political digs. If you don't believe them, fine. Nobody said you had to. Put them on ignore if their claims bother you that much.

This is a Suns forum so can we stick to talking basketball?

 

[Hoop Head]

This story about the Warren trade is pathetic and it reminds me of this.

Years ago I lived in Massachusetts for a year. Every time I ran into a Celtics fan they had to tell me this story.

Right after the Dennis Johnson trade Red Auerbach called the reporters into his office to share the details of the deal. He's kicked back in his big chair smoking a cigar and he says, "I just traded Rick Robey to the Suns for Dennis Johnson." The reporters are all like, " Yeah Red we heard, what else did you have to give?" Red takes a big puff of his cigar and says, "Nothing"

The room goes dead silent for a few seconds then everybody bursts out into hysterical laughter.

For those too young to remember Robey was a barely serviceable non-athletic PF and Dennis Johnson was an All NBA defensive All Star PG. Phoenix actually threw in a first round pick and recieved 2 second rounders in the deal. Genius

I hope I never have to live in Indiana.

I have a lot of family in Indiana and they're all Pacers fan. I've tried adopting the Pacers as sort of a 2nd favorite team but haven't been able to do it. They're a good team but it just feels wrong rooting for someone else.

Anyway, I talked to a couple of the more knowledgable fans about the TJ trade and I was surprised they brought up his injury history before I did and mentioned that as a reason they're worried about what he can give them. Most of them remembered he stayed in an Indianapolis hospital for a couple of weeks a few years back for his mysterious "head injury". I couldn't provide any sort of info on why he was hurt all the time, or what came of his "head injury", and that didn't seem to help their views of the deal.

They didn't hate it but I don't think they felt like it was a steal like some Suns fans believe. He was the #2 guy on a 19 win team and a 21 win team and that doesn't exactly paint him as a big help. They also wondered how he would do on a playoff team because he couldn't stay healthy in Phoenix, how will he react to playing an extra 7-14 playoff games.

They're a playoff team and they need people that play above their salary because their owner doesn't like paying luxury tax money and having TJ under contract for 3 years helps give them some stability but they're worried his contract might keep them from retaining a player like Sabonis when he gets paid next summer because their owner is not big on paying the luxury tax.

I don't think they'll gloat much if he is a steal but I think they'll reserve that right until they see him stay healthy enough to make a difference when it matters.

 

[devilalum]

I have a lot of family in Indiana and they're all Pacers fan. I've tried adopting the Pacers as sort of a 2nd favorite team but haven't been able to do it. They're a good team but it just feels wrong rooting for someone else.

Anyway, I talked to a couple of the more knowledgable fans about the TJ trade and I was surprised they brought up his injury history before I did and mentioned that as a reason they're worried about what he can give them. Most of them remembered he stayed in an Indianapolis hospital for a couple of weeks a few years back for his mysterious "head injury". I couldn't provide any sort of info on why he was hurt all the time, or what came of his "head injury", and that didn't seem to help their views of the deal.

They didn't hate it but I don't think they felt like it was a steal like some Suns fans believe. He was the #2 guy on a 19 win team and a 21 win team and that doesn't exactly paint him as a big help. They also wondered how he would do on a playoff team because he couldn't stay healthy in Phoenix, how will he react to playing an extra 7-14 playoff games.

They're a playoff team and they need people that play above their salary because their owner doesn't like paying luxury tax money and having TJ under contract for 3 years helps give them some stability but they're worried his contract might keep them from retaining a player like Sabonis when he gets paid next summer because their owner is not big on paying the luxury tax.

I don't think they'll gloat much if he is a steal but I think they'll reserve that right until they see him stay healthy enough to make a difference when it matters.

Yeah, he's not gonna be an All Star but the story about the call is still frustrating.

 

[Yuma]

I have a lot of family in Indiana and they're all Pacers fan. I've tried adopting the Pacers as sort of a 2nd favorite team but haven't been able to do it. They're a good team but it just feels wrong rooting for someone else.

Anyway, I talked to a couple of the more knowledgable fans about the TJ trade and I was surprised they brought up his injury history before I did and mentioned that as a reason they're worried about what he can give them. Most of them remembered he stayed in an Indianapolis hospital for a couple of weeks a few years back for his mysterious "head injury". I couldn't provide any sort of info on why he was hurt all the time, or what came of his "head injury", and that didn't seem to help their views of the deal.

They didn't hate it but I don't think they felt like it was a steal like some Suns fans believe. He was the #2 guy on a 19 win team and a 21 win team and that doesn't exactly paint him as a big help. They also wondered how he would do on a playoff team because he couldn't stay healthy in Phoenix, how will he react to playing an extra 7-14 playoff games.

They're a playoff team and they need people that play above their salary because their owner doesn't like paying luxury tax money and having TJ under contract for 3 years helps give them some stability but they're worried his contract might keep them from retaining a player like Sabonis when he gets paid next summer because their owner is not big on paying the luxury tax.

I don't think they'll gloat much if he is a steal but I think they'll reserve that right until they see him stay healthy enough to make a difference when it matters.

My kids and I kept track of how many times he was injured in Suns games, especially hitting his head. It was uncanny the amount of times this guy hit his head, or got hit in the head by other players. We were joking about sending him a soccer helmet to play in. He falls hard, he gets caught in awkward positions, he is just slow enough on offense guys hammer him at the rim. If you pay attention to his play, it's a miracle he doesn't play less each season.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

So far, in fewer than 40 posts, you have claimed

1. to have a black immigrant mother who is a Trump supporter, of whom there are maybe five in the world,

2. to have worked for the DNC for four years, in spite of being an independent, and

3. to have a personal connection to someone with inside info on both the Suns and Diamondbacks.

It's quite a debut.

Everyone...please drop the politics. Plenty to fight about otherwise

 

[Raze]

I think that I disagree with 1,2, and 4 here.

1, 4. I think that you have assigned your own value to players and it is probably not the actual retail value. TJ needed to go. My opinion - they had been trying to trade TJ for a while with no takers. What they ended up getting was someone to take him into their cap space ($11.7M per year) and receive no contract back. Do you think that comes for free? Let's say Warren was a "tier 3" player (whatever that may mean - but higher than average value) - do you still think it is free to have a team absorb him into cap space and not give contracts back? The Suns did not want a contract back, or at least not the crap that must have been offered. I think "we" are wrong on the value here, which is why I disagree with you on the trade. There was definitely a couple of things wrong (if not more) with TJ. A decent scorer, but a knack for being disinterested, hurt, and sitting out. And ending up on the floor.
Once ATL traded for #5 with Hunter as the target, I think the Suns knew they weren't getting the player they really wanted. If the lottery luck had even been just little kinder, this whole offseason would look a lot different. You say White is "potential", I guess? JJ most likely thought not. Rubio now and for the next 4 is most likely better than White will ever be. So, no PG, Clarke apparently not all that, and the Suns need shooters. Candy-coating? Perhaps, but after the lottery results it was always going to be iffy with this draft. We all knew it.
Josh Jackson has negative value. I thought that before any of the legal issues, or team drama. He is not an intelligent basketball player. I don't think you can watch him and disagree with that. Some think that a coach can make a player intelligent. I don't think that is possible. I disagree with your inclusion of him in item 1 and disagree with 4. We sold way too late - not too early. The time to sell was after season one. Or definitely after the summer league in season 2. I firmly believe this was not the lowest point.
Second round picks, for a young team yearning for NBA talent and wins, have no value. In fact, they probably have negative value because you can't keep developing everybody as it just muddies the water. You can develop one, two, or maybe even three players. Those players are already on the roster.

2. Getting better definitely helps us 5 years from now. You are not defining your "chance of special" here. Josh Jackson becoming special? In one sense of the word - definitely. In the sense we would all like - quite doubtful. Melton was traded for Carter, essentially, so I am not thinking you meant Melton was potentially special.

I totally understand frustration with losing, ownership, the FO, the coaching, or whatever. But I also think that many fans have become conditioned to be upset. I am excited for positive new forward steps, even if there have been some backwards leaps over the last number of years. Rubio will still be trade-able in a couple of years if we get everything else in order and can find that dynamic PG of the future. What I do know is that Rubio is not going to hold us back from wins, which is great.

I appreciate the well thought out response. The situation is far from simple which makes it very difficult to discuss without exhausting ourselves.

1. I agree that TJ's value took a hit. Obviously. But so much so that it changed the precedent for trading disgruntled players? Why haven't other teams held the same value for their disgruntled players? And I know TJ has had some "issues" but to yield a NEGATIVE value!?! Absolutely not. This is a gym rat who works hard, not a cancer. And on a reasonable contract. How many other players in NBA history have been traded with this negative value?

As it relates to this perceived negative value, not long ago the Suns were universally laughed at for trading Kurt Thomas AND picks. It was deserved then and it's deserved now. Interesting that the same owner is the one doing it.

Rubio: I actually like the signing. I have no complaints really. Sensible signing. He makes our core better. You have to hit some base hits when you're in a slump. His contract isn't a killer juxtaposed to guys like Rozier. Fits a MAJOR need.

4. Jackson does have crazy low value. So we actually agree here. If Jones believed he was a problem then he should have traded him mid season last year, which is what I suggested. Or he should have held on and given Monty the chance to work with him. You should take the chance on driving up his value rather than trade him now at his lowest point. But I'm not concerned with the whole JJ thing. I'm far more concerned that our GM has a warped view of "value" and how to properly use our "assets". And I'm not really sticking my neck out here. This is a universal perception at this point across various channels.

As far as the special point, I was talking about the difference between potential vs. production. Production is safe. But it rarely wins you anything significant. Potential is volatile. But if you make contact you win big. Jones has almost completely abandoned the idea of potential for production. In fact, he's placed FAR too much value on production as evidenced by his litany of moves this off season. He overcompensated. I believe you need a healthy balance of both. As WesternFront stated earlier, hopefully this is just a one off season thing and not a yearly thing.

In support of Jones, I do agree with the concept of surrounding our core that's loaded with potential with role players that are productive. This makes sense to me.

 

[Yuma]

@Chaplin I do not have any Suns inside info. I could come up with a life profile of stuff I have done and seen, and you guys would accuse me of outrageous claims.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

And he explained himself and elaborated on his "sources". Believe it or don't. There is no need to bring it up again, especially with the political digs. If you don't believe them, fine. Nobody said you had to. Put them on ignore if their claims bother you that much.

This is a Suns forum so can we stick to talking basketball?

For me it’s more: man do i want to believe someone has actual inside information to know what’s really going on - but once bitten twice shy . . . too many charlatans.